Chicken and Egg question: Which came first??? Consciousness or Non-conciousness beings???

Chicken and Egg question: Which came first??? Consciousness or Nonconciousness???

I walk in my yard and I wonder where does this Dirt and Rocks in my yard come from?? This accumulation of dirt and Rocks make up our planet earth and all other planets and stars in the universe. Where does heat and energy come from?? Where are all of its origins?

I wonder if Non-conciousness/non-beings such as described above (dirt, energy) came before and created conscious beings.

or

I wonder if consciousness came first then created non conscious beings.

reply to post by saabacura


Well, logically, since you, I, and all of us are basically made out of dirt... And we will return to it eventually... the answer to your query seems obvious.

~Heff

maybe, we are highly advanced, complicated accumulation of non-beings, creating consciouness...

in a sense we are like a machine. a biological machines....

We know we are made up of all the elements in our periodic table. We are made of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen etc etc etc ,...... which makes our DNAs, etc etc,..... we can break our bodies into the periodic table.....

Are we just a complex biological non beings which happened to gain consciousness due to its complexity???

Since we know that the chicken evoluted from T-Rex, we have to ask a different question, right?


Source: www.dailymail.co.uk...

So the T-Rex look more like this then in "lost world":



What was first? The T-Rex or the T-Rex Egg? And how did he sit on that eggs to warm it?

I cannot answer in terms of the conscious beings, although I would suggest that, if time is to be properly considered a dimension, an external creator would not have a fixed point of origin within that, and thus could not be said to predate anything.

It does depend on your viewpoint - non-conscious matter is essential for our existence, and so would seem to predate matter-based beings of consciousness (i.e. anything with a theory of mind). Whether you feel that some conscious creator of matter is essential for the existence of matter would dictate whether you would say "conscious first" or "I don't know"

I'm going with I don't know.



What I do know, by the way, is that the egg came before the chicken. Chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus are a relatively recent domestication of the red junglefowl (but still over 10,000 years), and eggs, in various forms, have been around since the rise of anisogamous sexual reproduction.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by saabacura

 

Well, logically, since you, I, and all of us are basically made out of dirt... And we will return to it eventually... the answer to your query seems obvious.

~Heff

So bascially you are saying that dirt/non-consciousness came before consciousness. Non-awarness came before awareness..

Then how did this dirt came about????!!!

Originally posted by TheWill
I cannot answer in terms of the conscious beings, although I would suggest that, if time is to be properly considered a dimension, an external creator would not have a fixed point of origin within that, and thus could not be said to predate anything.

It does depend on your viewpoint - non-conscious matter is essential for our existence, and so would seem to predate matter-based beings of consciousness (i.e. anything with a theory of mind). Whether you feel that some conscious creator of matter is essential for the existence of matter would dictate whether you would say "conscious first" or "I don't know"

What I do know, by the way, is that the egg came before the chicken. Chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus are a relatively recent domestication of the red junglefowl (but still over 10,000 years), and eggs, in various forms, have been around since the rise of anisogamous sexual reproduction.

I believe the recent discovery is that the chicken came before the egg.

So the conscious came before the non conscious.

reply to post by saabacura


Take your logic and invert it, reverse the conditions. This is an acceptable scientific test. If all that is conscious ceases to exist at some point - the dirt will remain, unchanged, unaffected, and constant. It does not require consciousness.

Think of it this way. You might well have tomatoes, flour, cheese, and sausage stored in your refrigerator. Even so, you cannot rationally say that you have a pizza in the fridge. You merely have the makings of one. Consciousness works the same way. The dirt, elements (chemical composition - not earth, wind, fire, water) are the ingredients... But until combined in the right manner - they are only ingredients and not a pizza.

~Heff

Originally posted by saabacura
Chicken and Egg question: Which came first??? Consciousness or Nonconciousness???

I walk in my yard and I wonder where does this Dirt and Rocks in my yard come from?? This accumulation of dirt and Rocks make up our planet earth and all other planets and stars in the universe. Where does heat and energy come from?? Where are all of its origins?

I wonder if Non-conciousness/non-beings such as described above (dirt, energy) came before and created conscious beings.

or

I wonder if consciousness came first then created non conscious beings.

It was the magic of self organisation in early times. First it need's suns to create the elements. when this suns where burned out and exploded and later the a nother sun was formed, this elements formed the planets.

Selforganisation is very mystic and magic and something to do with resonance patterns (harmonies) - and we canot understand it yet. It's like "math" is the creator.

reply to post by saabacura

I believe the recent discovery is that the chicken came before the egg.

So the conscious came before the non conscious.

Um, so you are suggesting that chickens pre-date all other birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, snails, worms, insects, spiders, and even corals? Could you give me some indication of what this recent discovery was, and where I can read about it?


How does this follow logically to conscious preceding non-conscious? In the chicken/egg argument, chickens must hatch from eggs - therefore, a chicken requires an egg. Eggs, however, are laid by birds, mammals, lepidosaurs, crocodilians, anapsids, amphibians, fish, insects, worms (of their numerous varieties) molluscs, crustacea, arachnids... the list goes on. An egg, therefore, does not require a chicken.

In terms of consciousness, all consciousness that we definitively know of is intrinsically linked with matter. Consciousness, as we know it, seems to require matter.

However, as you have pointed out, dust and rocks do not seem to be conscious, and as geological processes continue to produce such without any apparent conscious intervention, they do not seem to require it, either.

While I would not risk saying that matter definitively pre-dates consciousness, I feel that if one was to draw any premature conclusion, matter pre-dating consciousness would be a far more logical one than the alternative.

I am guessing that a lot of you who replied here claimed that non-consciousness came fore consciousness. is this correct assessment?

reply to post by saabacura


The more humanity learns the less sense the world makes to them. We can say in our supposed knowledge and logic, everything began from one. Humanity cannot identify itself without some form of definition regarding its source or creator. The question of where does everything come from is usually followed by "what does it all mean?". So basically one is looking for purpose and to find that purpose humanity seeks an authority.

Rene Descartes said " I think therefore I AM".( I AM capitalized by me). The only definite truth I know of is that quote by Descartes, undeniable knowledge. To seek out truth one must begin with definite truth to be sure they are walking on a path that begins with truth. The destination should be truth and the journey has to be truth. So when you ask " where does everything come from?", ask yourself this " whose reality am I living?".

When you perceive something, it is your mind which is translating the data into a form that you can interact with. What exists is defined by your mind and made tangible to and for your existence. What was seen before you doesnt exist to your perception, anything seen by you wasnt seen in the state you perceived it; did it still exist? Your perception creates your existence and defines your experience known as life. Your environment defines your identity and creates a perception of your persona; purpose.

Lets go back to one in the beginning, picture a void. Nothing precedes something. There had to be a first consciousness in a void. What thought could a consciousness in a void have? Without a reality to interact with and identify its existence? How could this consciousness exist, without having experienced anything? From that understanding what was the first thought a first consciousness had to make itself tangible to itself and create a reality for itself to exist in?

Thought was the first creation as this first consciousness had a first thought that gave birth to a tangible existence, for itself. So now we come to substance and its point of origin. As I understand it, substance is in constant motion; vibration. Sound is a vibration perceived by the ear, translated by the brain and absorbed by the consciousness. If everything is in motion, vibration, that means to me it gives off a frequency of sound that is perceived by sight. The vibration of substance creates a tangible form to a cluster of atoms, or God particles, which is known as a static image. So in my understanding everything perceived is vibration and we only can perceive what is vibrating on our frequency.

So where does everything come from? Where did this vibration come from? How could the first consciousness create vibration without a tangible form? The first vibration came from the first consciousness to create substance which begat substance. In my understanding the first vibration was the expression of the first thought of the first consciousness; The Word. ( I do not ascribe to any faith in particular).

Where does everything come from? In my understanding everything perceived is created by the mind in this never ending cycle of God revealing itself to define itself to itself and further expand its experience; life. I see it as, life is the experience of a tangible form to a consciousness ever expanding to live and fulfill its purpose which is to interact and create destiny; Love.

The question answers itself. 360. The chinese box. The picture of the picture within the picture. The Multiverse. Synapse/experience/understanding/wisdom/Love/destiny/purpose/peace.

reply to post by saabacura


If selforganisation is math, then yes. If selforganisation is intelligent design, then no. make your own picture and look the docu I linked in. It's a believe, nobody can know that really because we don't know the rules of universe. Who designed the Elememts? Space? Harmonics? Gravity - Time and so on...

The answers to the chicken and the egg question are simple, it just depends on what you believe about life. If you believe in God, then the chicken came first because God created it. If you believe in evolution, then the egg came first because it would have laid eggs for some duration of its existence and before it could actually become a full blown chicken, it would have had to emerge from the egg as a chicken, and not exactly the same as what laid the chicken. Now I put both of them together and bring in the "what if's" What if we really do not understand God? The greatest gift that man ever had was free will, and man took it away from himself. But when we took that away from ourselves the truths have been lost with time. What if God just put us here and let us evolve until we were perfect, and theoretically could live in harmony. What if evolution was a formula used by God to get the desired results. Everything on the earth has a purpose, and what if God trusted us to keep it going and we screwed it up because of our gift of free will and using it for personal gain instead of the good of this earth and everything on/in it. The other thought I have is, if we started as micro-organisms, are micro-organisms capable of expressing free will and emotions. Maybe someone could help me out with that one because that is one question I asked myself and could not answer. This is just my 2 cents.

The answers to the chicken and the egg question are simple, it just depends on what you believe about life. If you believe in God, then the chicken came first because God created it. If you believe in evolution, then the egg came first because it would have laid eggs for some duration of its existence and before it could actually become a full blown chicken, it would have had to emerge from the egg as a chicken, and not exactly the same as what laid the chicken. Now I put both of them together and bring in the "what if's" What if we really do not understand God? The greatest gift that man ever had was free will, and man took it away from himself. But when we took that away from ourselves the truths have been lost with time. What if God just put us here and let us evolve until we were perfect, and theoretically could live in harmony. What if evolution was a formula used by God to get the desired results. Everything on the earth has a purpose, and what if God trusted us to keep it going and we screwed it up because of our gift of free will and using it for personal gain instead of the good of this earth and everything on/in it. My question is, kind of the same because if we evolved from something where did thoughts and emotions from love to hate and everything in between come into play? This is just my 2 cents

reply to post by fonenyc


well, i see. I think it could go the other way depending on how you interpret it. But I wonder, according to your thougths, where does void come from? And how could a void create something? Isn't a void is a void is a void and will always be a void?

Isn't it hard to imagine a creation of a chair without first a thought? Could a void itself create a chair? Could a void itself somehow create consciousness??

But I can see why your interpretations are also legitimate.
Then I can only see that consciousness/something and unconsciousness/void came at the same time. Perhaps these two opposite things came about together..?

Originally posted by saabacura
I walk in my yard and I wonder where does this Dirt and Rocks in my yard come from??

Erosional material accumulated over 1/2 billion years of planetary geologic processes. Yes, seriously.

This accumulation of dirt and Rocks make up our planet earth and all other planets and stars in the universe.

Material forged in the heart of stars, ejected from novas and supernovas (dying stars), forming planetary accretion discs in star nurseries. If you go to Wikipedia and read about stars and planets, you can find a lot of amazing stuff.

Where does heat and energy come from?? Where are all of its origins?

Heat is one of the outcomes of energy. I don't mean to sound self-important, here, because you're asking some interesting and basic questions. I want to encourage you to head off to some of the science resources and start reading -- there's so much to tell in these answers that I could type for five years and still not finish!

I wonder if Non-conciousness/non-beings such as described above (dirt, energy) came before and created conscious beings.

The basic problem with this is that you have to decide where consciousness starts and what it means. Is a molecule conscious? What does it mean to be "conscious." Is a plant conscious?

No, I don't have an answer there. Philosophers have all sorts of suggestions about how this should be answered.

Originally posted by fonenyc
reply to post by saabacura

 

The more humanity learns the less sense the world makes to them. We can say in our supposed knowledge and logic, everything began from one. Humanity cannot identify itself without some form of definition regarding its source or creator. The question of where does everything come from is usually followed by "what does it all mean?". So basically one is looking for purpose and to find that purpose humanity seeks an authority.

Rene Descartes said " I think therefore I AM".( I AM capitalized by me). The only definite truth I know of is that quote by Descartes, undeniable knowledge. To seek out truth one must begin with definite truth to be sure they are walking on a path that begins with truth. The destination should be truth and the journey has to be truth. So when you ask " where does everything come from?", ask yourself this " whose reality am I living?".

When you perceive something, it is your mind which is translating the data into a form that you can interact with. What exists is defined by your mind and made tangible to and for your existence. What was seen before you doesnt exist to your perception, anything seen by you wasnt seen in the state you perceived it; did it still exist? Your perception creates your existence and defines your experience known as life. Your environment defines your identity and creates a perception of your persona; purpose.

Lets go back to one in the beginning, picture a void. Nothing precedes something. There had to be a first consciousness in a void. What thought could a consciousness in a void have? Without a reality to interact with and identify its existence? How could this consciousness exist, without having experienced anything? From that understanding what was the first thought a first consciousness had to make itself tangible to itself and create a reality for itself to exist in?

Thought was the first creation as this first consciousness had a first thought that gave birth to a tangible existence, for itself. So now we come to substance and its point of origin. As I understand it, substance is in constant motion; vibration. Sound is a vibration perceived by the ear, translated by the brain and absorbed by the consciousness. If everything is in motion, vibration, that means to me it gives off a frequency of sound that is perceived by sight. The vibration of substance creates a tangible form to a cluster of atoms, or God particles, which is known as a static image. So in my understanding everything perceived is vibration and we only can perceive what is vibrating on our frequency.

So where does everything come from? Where did this vibration come from? How could the first consciousness create vibration without a tangible form? The first vibration came from the first consciousness to create substance which begat substance. In my understanding the first vibration was the expression of the first thought of the first consciousness; The Word. ( I do not ascribe to any faith in particular).

Where does everything come from? In my understanding everything perceived is created by the mind in this never ending cycle of God revealing itself to define itself to itself and further expand its experience; life. I see it as, life is the experience of a tangible form to a consciousness ever expanding to live and fulfill its purpose which is to interact and create destiny; Love.

The question answers itself. 360. The chinese box. The picture of the picture within the picture. The Multiverse. Synapse/experience/understanding/wisdom/Love/destiny/purpose/peace.

^^^This^^^

Great post... Hit home for me!

reply to post by saabacura


n that is where we r at a loss 4 now, the void is zat/perfection. all creation is disharmony with the law.

2nd line