Aliens'; it's about what you WANT to believe!

Hello to every fanatic supporter to debunker,

There are a lot of treads dealing wih the question if Aliens exist (and have visited) or not. In most of the threads any kind of evidence is asked to prove one or the other. Also in some threads the emotions kick in because the very deep-rooted believe is made redicilous sometimes. And as one is convinced of exactly the opposite of the other, a "conflict"is easily born

I would like to offer both groups a different approach.

First queston is: what is true/truth or real/reality?

To start with this: is a matter of definition. We have all been taught to know what (for example) a "chair" is. Although our imagination can produce quite some variations of it, it basicly consists of the basic charataristics.

We basicly all acepted this as the "truth". If anyone would call it a "dog", we would probably call this person "crazy", because we have another association with that word. If somebody would call it a "dfyloxz", we might consider this was a variation of a "chair" we have never heard of before or that it might be a different language.If we ar critical enough to our selves we could only say that the person has learned a strange word for what we call "chair". It would be very hard to convince the person that he's wrong and/or that we are right

As long as these are material/visible objects, it remains quite simple (to define and recognize). When it becomes non material it becomes more difficult.

for example "love"; we cant draw it, can't picture it, can see, smell, hear, taste or touch it. Yet we are all convinced it exists; we are all (fortunately) strong believers. because we feel it and we have defined that feeling!

So what is the definition of an Alien (as dicussed here on ATS)? Actually we don't really know.

one of the dictionaries tells us the following:

1. a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization ( distinguished from citizen).
2. a foreigner.
3. a person who has been estranged or excluded.
4. a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

try to picture that!


Prove it!

We have seen these words a lot in threads; "if you don't have a pic, i didn't happen!". Al we have succeeded in, is that we have failed to prove either side.

But maybe this is the wrong question? If I would say I have a chair in my house, I could easily provide a picture and show it as prove. If would say I have love in my house, I would not albe to prove it by a picture other than to take a picture of my wife (which I would not recommend), and tell you there is love inside of her. Yet you would probably believe me.

If I would say I have a Alien in my house, it might be there without me being able to prove it with a picture, because it might not be in the definition category of material/visible things.But it would be my definition of an "alien".

I am a strong believer of alien (extraterrestial) existence, I know they exist, because I feel it and need no evidence for that as I need no evidence for that feeling my wife has for me what we call love. Personally I think this is the level of acceptance Aliens wants us to start with.

I even can live with the thought that "they" planted us here to develop skills in this environment they can not develop themselves.... but that is another thread!

Cheers!

reply to post by saturnus1962


First, one must understand the definition of a "UFO". By definition it is NOT necessarily an alien being flying a spaceship around our planet. The term simply means the object has not been identified. Considering the vast distances a being from another world would have to traverse it seems unlikely they would undertake such a journey with no clear reason. Our present understanding of the laws of physics makes such a trip impossible. Having said that there are two possibilities for the UFO phenomonem. One, they are from earth or two, they reside fairly close to earth, perhaps on a moon of Saturn or Jupiter.
There has been some discussion of perhaps Nazis after WW2 hid out in the Antartic and developed the technology for the aircraft that have been seen. The US HAS developed renticular aircraft and perhaps that is what is being seen. Those of you waiting for "disclosure" are going to be very disappointed.

I think the general consensus is that an Alien (for purposes of this forum) is a being from a planet or celestial body other than Earth. There are some who claim they are dimensional beings, etc., but the common acceptance is a physical being from another celestial body (planet, moon, etc.)

You can't PROVE the lack of something, so the onus is upon the believers to PROVE aliens exist.

If it could be PROVEN, then there'd be no need for this forum, it'd be an accepted FACT. Like your chair example, we could go into the word "fact", but not really necessary.

What we do do, then, is offer EVIDENCE...and then see what conclusion can be derived from that available evidence. This means examining all of it, including all sides of the issue. Roswell is a good example. There is a lot of evidence for it being an ET craft, and a lot of evidence for it being Mogul. There are many witnesses, including those who tried to make money off false statements. In the final analysis, each person has to evaluate it for themselves, and see what conclusion he or she arrives at.

reply to post by saturnus1962


"Its about what you want to believe"

Not its NOT. The problem is that we are all from the same society, ALL OF US, we are NOT at any stage trained properly how to learn or think. Some of us may be naturally good at it, others not so much. The majority of people will take whatever they read, see or hear as FACT simply because they have read, seen or heard it. (How many times has a friend of colleague sent you a story from Onion new or the like?)

What is lacking is LOGIC, you are open to believe what ever you want, however if its nonsense then thats is your problem, if you cannot or will not accept something is nonsense even after it has been proven multiple times, then you SHOULD be "ridiculed" you should be told this time & time again, Idiots are idiots, if that is offensive then that again is "your" problem.

ANY proof or aliens or UFO's WILL stand up to logic, if some basic common sense can "debunk" a claim, then that claim is garbage, job done, discussion over and there in lies the problem.

On ATS the discussion is NOT over, something is proven to be a hoax or garbage and months laters people are still debating it, proof is ignored or "Counter- Debunked" even when it defies logic and this all comes back to my theory I have about ATS which is that a sizable protion, perhaps 70-80% are subconciously taking part in a Conspiracy RPG and they just want to win, nothing more, they dont care about truth, dont care about facts, they only care about "winning" and the "fame" that comes with it! (sound familiar?)

And please note thats the same for "debunkers" or "believers" alike, the simple fact we have the "labels" in the first place should be enough to show people what has gone wrong, but thats where problem number 2 comes in, people DONT CARE, they would rather fight amongst each other because its cool (I think, I dont know really why people do it, perhaps simply because they can!?!?) And here we are.

Pissing in the wind, getting nowhere because people would rather hang onto obsolete beliefs purely to aviod being proven wrong! (cant "win" if you're wrong)

The first thing ATS members should do is finally accept we are not any less "sheeple" than the ignorant masses we like to look down on.

"On ATS the discussion is NOT over, something is proven to be a hoax or garbage and months laters people are still debating it, proof is ignored or "Counter- Debunked" even when it defies logic and this all comes back to my theory I have about ATS which is that a sizable protion, perhaps 70-80% are subconciously taking part in a Conspiracy RPG and they just want to win, nothing more, they dont care about truth, dont care about facts, they only care about "winning" and the "fame" that comes with it! (sound familiar?) "


Completely recognizable! There is alway's a counter-debunk if you want one. If you go left, people say you have to go right, if you go right, people say you have to go left. If you stay in the middle you're categorized as a coward not picking a side.

My point is that it doesn't always take "hard evidence" to be certain of something.

regards!

One of my favourite Aliens

Originally posted by saturnus1962

My point is that it doesn't always take "hard evidence" to be certain of something.

But shouldn't it? Don't people have higher standards on Bigfoot, fairies, Chupacabra, and a hundred other "mythical" things? People seem to accept the idea of visiting intelligent aliens without the same standards of evidence they would require for hundreds of other things. Why is that?

People want to believe in aliens, so they don't force the same critical-thinking they would for other things. I'm curious why. It's very reminiscent of religion.

reply to post by S3ns1bl3


Great post!

Originally posted by EsSeeEye

Originally posted by saturnus1962

My point is that it doesn't always take "hard evidence" to be certain of something.

But shouldn't it? Don't people have higher standards on Bigfoot, fairies, Chupacabra, and a hundred other "mythical" things? People seem to accept the idea of visiting intelligent aliens without the same standards of evidence they would require for hundreds of other things. Why is that?

People want to believe in aliens, so they don't force the same critical-thinking they would for other things. I'm curious why. It's very reminiscent of religion.

reply to post by S3ns1bl3

 

Great post!

As we have this discussion on the world wide web it kind of takes on a different meaning.
1000's of people reading this thread have done "critical-thinking" on this subject and have found evidence of UFOs and other such phenomenon.
People have given their TRUTHFUL testimony on the subject and in some cases in front of the press or other media.
Can we not accept "testimony" as evidence? America has one of the most advanced legal systems on the planet and it would crumble to bits if suddenly peoples "testimony" was not taken as evidence.

reply to post by dplum517


Testimony is evidence, yes.

However, JUST testimony alone, is rarely enough to win a court case, and it's the same thing in UFOlogy. The best cases have more than just witness testimony to go on...like government docs, additional and corroborating witnesses, etc.

reply to post by dplum517

reply to post by Gazrok


The question of testimony in court cases is a flawed argument when it comes to the ET Hypothesis, because it's not a legal question, it's a scientific one. Science doesn't consider testimony is viable evidence, only as supporting already proven theory. If aliens were to land tomorrow, and reveal themselves to the world, and we obtained all of the physical evidence we'd ever need, then the anecdotal evidence would become extremely useful in figuring out the newly revealed questions (where they're from, what they want, what they've been doing here, etc).

Until that happens, unfortunately, anyone saying "I've seen aliens" won't be enough to convince the scientific community that the ETH is a real occurrence.

That's one of the reasons I have such a big problem with people saying "You believe what you want to believe." and "We all have our opinions and they're all equally valid." In a way, that's true. Everyone's entitled to their opinion on the subject. Unfortunately, there's only one truth to the matter, and it's going to be either we are or aren't being visited by intelligent extraterrestrials. Testimony is enough for some people to put their full faith into the hypothesis, and then it becomes (much like religion) a truth to them. After that, there's no explaining any other possibilities, because they get defensive about their truth.

So what's the truth? I don't know, and I'm more than willing to accept that they're here once we get real evidence that shows such. Until then, however, I don't see a reason to believe it's so just because.

reply to post by EsSeeEye


Your point is valid and I agree. This is kind of like a religion because many people do believe even though they have never seen and Alien. But alot of these "believers" come from a skeptical background and only believe because of what they have seen heard or read.
People get frustrated and will refuse to back down because this subject should and could be a defining point in Human advancement and evolution. So, naturally, people want to make other "aware."
But, as you said it just isn't going to happen until the Aliens come down and reveal themselves in the open.
Hurry up already!!

Originally posted by EsSeeEye
The question of testimony in court cases is a flawed argument when it comes to the ET Hypothesis, because it's not a legal question, it's a scientific one. Science doesn't consider testimony is viable evidence, only as supporting already proven theory.

That isn't entirely true. Most of what is taken as evidence in science is the reports in journals of what we find. Those reports are the testimony of scientists. Sometimes they turn out to be untrue...

As for the subject being about what you believe: No it isn't. Some people who are involved in the debate are pretty certain in E.T. reality but cannot prove it. That means that the leap in human conciousness that it may bring about can't happen yet. For this leap we need either proof OR disclosure. It appears that disclosure is not about to happen so the search for proof goes on.

Originally posted by dplum517
reply to post by EsSeeEye

 

Your point is valid and I agree. This is kind of like a religion because many people do believe even though they have never seen and Alien. But alot of these "believers" come from a skeptical background and only believe because of what they have seen heard or read.
People get frustrated and will refuse to back down because this subject should and could be a defining point in Human advancement and evolution. So, naturally, people want to make other "aware."
But, as you said it just isn't going to happen until the Aliens come down and reveal themselves in the open.
Hurry up already!!

I wonder how defining a moment it would be if we don't have a mass acceptance that could only come through real, physical evidence though. I agree that a reality that includes visiting extraterrestrial intelligences would be huge, and could change the way human society operates in any number of ways, but trying to jumpstart those changes through faith alone is the same as trying to do so by creating a new religion.

Scientology is a perfect example of why the ETH is looked down upon by much of mainstream society. There's no evidence to it, nothing but anecdotes, conjecture, and storytelling, yet the people who put their faith in it have the same sort of reverence and fervor that many ETH die-hard believers do. You can look at these forums and see that. People who look at it in a skeptical viewpoint see no real evidence, while at the same time seeing people who are so entrenched in their own faithful ideas of it that it pushes them away.

The same point of believers trying to open the eyes of others who don't believe can be used both ways in this instance, because most skeptics, while very open to the idea (once it's decidedly proven), just want to remind the die-hards that their reality isn't really reality just yet. It might be eventually, but it's not right now.

reply to post by Pimander


Well, disclosure would assume that there's some sort of proof to back it up scientifically. If (and it's a big IF, in my opinion) some sections of the government or some high-ranking controlling shadowy figures already know, it's because they've got exactly the evidence we'd all need to know it as true.

Concerning scientific endeavor and testimony, hypothesis and conjecture is a big part of it, and having an open mind is extremely important when dealing with scientific progress (someone had to come up with the notion that smashing atoms together would create a bomb, for instance). That's not evidence, though, it's only conjecture. Once a notion is passed, and considered something worthwhile to achieve, the real science begins.

Concerning aliens, unfortunately there's nothing that can be done other than conjecture until some sort of testable, physical evidence presents itself. That doesn't move conjecture forward as a viable alternative to real evidence, though.

This as to replay to all of you who have taken the time to post an aswer:

You're all right and you're all wrong!

If we would have a legal case to confirm existence of Alien life forms, we would probably lose. This is like the chair in my house; If I say I can't take a picture of it, it's probably a lie and I would also lose a case in the statement that i have a chair.

If I would say I have love in my house; well, this would make a much harder case! And is excepted that I can't take a picure of it. I guess the only thing a court could do, is take my word for it, or my wifes word. Case closed?

If we talk about Aliens It might be just as unscientific! If I see something I might experience as an Alien; it IS an Alien (at least for me).

If you allow me to draw the comparinson to a time long ago, when somebody said the world was round instead of flat, without being able to prove it at that time. Well he was right, while the rest of the community probably burned him for being a witch or something.

Originally posted by EsSeeEye
The question of testimony in court cases is a flawed argument when it comes to the ET Hypothesis, because it's not a legal question, it's a scientific one.

Why is the ETH strictly a "scientific question"?

I don't agree with that restriction or the automatic assumption behind it. Therefore I do think that testimony plays a valid part.

reply to post by saturnus1962


Aliens aren't abstract the way love is so I really don't see how the analogy can be made.

For me it is absolutely not about what I WANT to believe. I do believe that aliens exist in some form, whether they be intelligent or mere microbes is up for speculation but given the size of the Universe odds are that we are not alone. I would like to believe that they're here among us however without evidence there's no justification for it. Desiring it to be true is not good enough, at least for me.

Originally posted by Malcram

Originally posted by EsSeeEye
The question of testimony in court cases is a flawed argument when it comes to the ET Hypothesis, because it's not a legal question, it's a scientific one.

Why is the ETH strictly a "scientific question"?

I don't agree with that restriction or the automatic assumption behind it. Therefore I do think that testimony plays a valid part.

What else could it be? The ETH has yet to be scientifically verified in any public forum, so by all the known rules of the universe, they don't exist. The likelihood is there, yes, but until it's confirmed it's still simply a hypothesis.

Could you prove the existence of visiting intelligent aliens in a court case? The US Supreme Court doesn't cover the laws of physics any more than it would cover the existence or non-existence of visiting alien species. What else could answer the question if not the scientific community?

You can say "The answer is in each of us." like so many are prone to do on these boards, but that's not how it works. The answer is either yes, aliens are visiting this planet, or no, they're not. There is no way to make everyone correct in this scenario.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Who'se to say they aren't? If not comparable with love, maybe with ghost than?, white noise? air pressure?

all non material things that can't be photographed to prove their existence, yet we all believe it exists, because we commonly decided this as known fact!

But who'se to say allt hose things are not "aliens".

Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to be right. I would just like to open a different point of view.

Regards

Aliens'; it's about what you WANT to believe!

No it's not. I WANT to believe that aliens are here and that there is life in the universe everywhere. However, because I have the (apparently rare) ability to use my brain, my desire to believe doesn't override my use of logic, reason and common sense.

Unfortunately, in this subject people treat it like a religion, so any progress is derailed by fanatical idiots.

I think there is some truth to the underground base rumors that have been floating around for years. There has to be something going on with the . The evidence supports that aliens did some of them, then the government would go in and do some more. Some police officers in some counties indeed thought the cattle mutilations in the area during the 1970s 80s were aliens in their craft going around and picking up cattle. It was said to be exactly like what Linda Howe provided us in Alien Harvests 2 (1994). Amateur footage of craft operating in the area, one larger craft, different smaller craft flying down to the ground, going back up and combining into the larger one. Many times they will be invisible and they blink out while they pick up the cow. Here is a picture of an example that happened in broad daylight, basically right under the nose of the family ranchers as they checked the cow less than two hours before, there are other cases like this also.

Feb 16th 1983, no blood or tracks, the eyes were buldging out, reproductive organs taken.



Also, if you wake up with physical evidence, and you have a strange feeling you were abducted, and you take regression sessions with a skilled psychologist detailing an abduction event, I believe this to be true. The evidence with the Roswell crash and UFO sightings of the time suggests completely that we were being visited, so abductions and cattle mutilations are the type of thing that would happene if we were visited. We have to remember that if a species 100 times smarter than us were to visit it would not be hard for them at all to keep it secret. We are a zoological playground to them, strickly for their purposes. I personally believe we were visited, all this stuff happened, and they probably went off to the next planet to start their operations anew. The Dulce base probably doesn't even have aliens anymore, just the military. But, in the past, possibly the most amazing truth in the world, is that Paul Bennewitz stumbled upon the alien base in New Mexico when the aliens were here and active.

There is also a ton of truth to the Colares Brazil 1977 event that I posted a week ago. Of course when the Colonel who released the information was murdered in the same way as Phil Schneider was (2 months after his first interview with a UFO magazine), you can't discredit it. You may want to call the hundreds of honest people involved liars, but you can't call him a liar, he deserves only the utmost respect.

Is there a coincidence that both these events happened in the late 70s? No, it is likely that aliens had operations on the earth at this time. For a species to setup underwater and undermountain bases that is 100 times more evolved than us, it probably takes no time at all. Aliens can setup a base probably almost miraculously, do they look like engineers? Yet they have all these ships and technology. Colonel Corso said they operate the craft with their minds, they are one with the craft. This leads me to believe that they have the ability to create, or do anything they want. If Jesus or some other prophet did a miracle, it is probably easy for an alien to do a miracle, hence you have the construction of underwater and undermountain bases and you don't see trucks moving about with the rock and dirt, you just see the UFOs themselves. I do not discredit the reports of UFOs flying out of the water near Colares and UFOs flying out of mountains during the 80s in the US. If you were a true aliens species, it would be what you would do also, plus it makes a lot more sense to take the materials from cattle and humans close by, instead of traveling with them in space.