America In Decline: Why Germans Think We're Insane

reply to post by Subjective Truth


Hey Sestias!

Can you give me a definition of "progressive mindset"? It seems to be a oxymoron. It seems that our socialist friends are headed to tergiversation with no one to pay for all these social programs that you think we all should have.

Originally posted by pinchanze
reply to post by Subjective Truth

 

Hey Sestias!

Can you give me a definition of "progressive mindset"? It seems to be a oxymoron. It seems that our socialist friends are headed to tergiversation with no one to pay for all these social programs that you think we all should have.

Sure no problem Hitler was a progressive he actually admired the early American progressive movement. Socialism,Communism and Fascism are all Oligarchies. Progressive's want government control in every area of your life diet,health care,schooling,work, Religion.



Many Progressive's blindly follow thinking it will make them safe or secure but the more freedom you give up the opposite effect happens.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


Hitler was not a progressive. He was a dictator and always wanted to be.

I'm a progressive and I do not want to give up any of our freedoms. I am in favor of some of our social programs, like public schools, libraries, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, housing assistance, veterans' benefits and etc. I am also in favor of the government building highways, bridges, dams, airports, hospitals and collecting garbage, among other public works. This is not even socialism, which by definition is when the state owns all the means of production. The last time I looked, capitalism is alive and well in this country, and few are saying it shouldn't be.

I am sure you yourself are not opposed to some of the things I mentioned above, like state-maintained roads. I think you only oppose programs for the poor, sick, disabled, elderly, etc. -- you know, programs to help those who are not winning the Darwinian "survival of the fittest" struggle for existence. IMO it's not the government per se you hate, but rather your fellow man.

You are using a "slippery slope" argument that these programs will lead to fascism, communism, totalitarianism, etc. Canada and Europe have more social programs than we have in the U.S. None of them have fascist dictatorships.

You should try reading Karl Marx sometime. I promise you that you won't keel over and die from it.

When I went to school in Georgia (I am 43) they lumped the Bolshevik revolution and Karl Marx together.
What I got was went like this...



....Russia was a great country that one time had a great leader named Peter the Great. Russia built many great cities and buildings under him. In time people started gathering in coffee shops and talking. Karl Marx wrote a book about the proletariat. That means working people. The people in the coffee shops started discussing Karl Marx's work. There was revolution in Russia in the early twentieth century and people were forced out of their homes at gunpoint and shot in killed in fields because the government was claiming control of the means of production.
Russia is now a horrible place to live. No one has food and everyone drinks vodka. Alcoholism is epidemic and there's only one political party. You are not allowed to leave. The end.

I lived in Germany for a while. They are educated, classy, civilized and warm people. I think Americans are ignorant without meaning to be, and that our schools have taught entire generations crazy things full of propaganda and nationalism. Now here we are, stuck in it.

Originally posted by Sestias
reply to post by Subjective Truth

 

Hitler was not a progressive. He was a dictator and always wanted to be.

I'm a progressive and I do not want to give up any of our freedoms. I am in favor of some of our social programs, like public schools, libraries, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, housing assistance, veterans' benefits and etc. I am also in favor of the government building highways, bridges, dams, airports, hospitals and collecting garbage, among other public works. This is not even socialism, which by definition is when the state owns all the means of production. The last time I looked, capitalism is alive and well in this country, and few are saying it shouldn't be.

I am sure you yourself are not opposed to some of the things I mentioned above, like state-maintained roads. I think you only oppose programs for the poor, sick, disabled, elderly, etc. -- you know, programs to help those who are not winning the Darwinian "survival of the fittest" struggle for existence. IMO it's not the government per se you hate, but rather your fellow man.

You are using a "slippery slope" argument that these programs will lead to fascism, communism, totalitarianism, etc. Canada and Europe have more social programs than we have in the U.S. None of them have fascist dictatorships.

You should try reading Karl Marx sometime. I promise you that you won't keel over and die from it.

Hey Sestias!

I was warned by my father and american history professor about you. You know the one of the things I was taught about Marx was he had bad hygiene. No joke! Did you know that? I'm surprised he had so many followers. I have read Marx! My father who became an intelligence officer after WW2 until 1980,was well versed on him. Those poor handicapped and elderly people you talk about are the same ones that marx wanted to kill. He wanted to commit Genocide of certain races also, such as the poles and the mountain scotch.He called for a revolutionary Holocaust. Last time that meant burning people. "HE WAS OBSESSED"with the evolution of the New Man. Are you a Marxist? Those social programs in the E.U. [not europe any more]...well, we see whats happening there. Look around you Sestias. It's not a slippey slope. It's not the goverment Sestias. It's some of the people who work in it. Here is how I grew up. Take care of yourself first and help others next. For instance. Quit giving money overseas until we fix our problems first. Then when we get ourselves straightened out then we help out overseas. Pretty simple Peace Brother. Walked the appalacian trail just west of you. Clingmans Dome

reply to post by pinchanze


I think you're getting Karl Marx mixed up with Stalin. Marx was a philosopher and theorist. Stalin was a terrible dictator who rose to power after the Russian revolution. Stalin was the reason why many American communists quit the party.

Marx, to my knowledge, was never in favor of genocide in any form. He is best known for his critique of capitalism, which capitalists should at least read. He's right about a lot of things.

reply to post by Sestias


I really don't care what europeans think about America. The nations of europe are 99% responsible for Africa and Asia being so messed up for their 400+ years of raping, pillaging and murdering hundreds of millions across the globe.

If you look at America's modern problems they are traced back to europe. Heck a german company Bayer is killing all our bumble bees. The money changers are euro-centric, heck even the low quality of "chocolate bars" is a direct result of euro(*&^(*^*^. (A european these last few years had been buying up all the coca and cornering that market so American Candy makers have had to substitute candy bars with chocolate like stuff).

The oil and energy sectors in America are heavily controlled by euro-centric energy interests. America has to spend so much on defense because the lazy euro's refuse to adequately defend themselves. The American Dollar was utterly trashed with quantitative easing to bail out euro-land.

The european union is not a friend or ally of America, all the eu is doing is a kind of economic imperialism of America. And the citizens of the eu have made it clear these last ten+ years that they are no friend or ally of the American Citizenry.

The citizens of europe have only brought misery and suffering to the citizens of America throughout the 20th century. Feminism, Communism and Socialism are all european constructs that have no logical relevance to America at all(Women in euro-land did suffer greatly, class based rapings where more common in the past then some would like to admit, while in America if a rapist regardless of economic class, if they weren't hanged by a court of law the American Citizenry took it unto themselves for better or worse).

It is bad enough they are forcing their political constructs of what is "left wing" and what is "right wing" down our throats. The sooner America is divorced from euro-land the better I say.

OP: "..Americans seem to think that any aid to the poor is an unjustified expense because the poor deserve to be poor."

In NJ I have seen soup kitchens, homeless shelters and free clinics. There are second-hand shops that benefit those on a budget while raising funds for the needy. There are lawyers, doctors and nurses that donate their time to help those in need. There is a slew of government supplied programs in the blue page section of the Yellow Pages phone book for people in need of assistance.
Americans IMHO are charitable to the poor both here and abroad. You've been away too long.

Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by Sestias

 

I really don't care what europeans think about America. The nations of europe are 99% responsible for Africa and Asia being so messed up for their 400+ years of raping, pillaging and murdering hundreds of millions across the globe.

If you look at America's modern problems they are traced back to europe. Heck a german company Bayer is killing all our bumble bees. The money changers are euro-centric, heck even the low quality of "chocolate bars" is a direct result of euro(*&^(*^*^. (A european these last few years had been buying up all the coca and cornering that market so American Candy makers have had to substitute candy bars with chocolate like stuff).

The oil and energy sectors in America are heavily controlled by euro-centric energy interests. America has to spend so much on defense because the lazy euro's refuse to adequately defend themselves. The American Dollar was utterly trashed with quantitative easing to bail out euro-land.

The european union is not a friend or ally of America, all the eu is doing is a kind of economic imperialism of America. And the citizens of the eu have made it clear these last ten+ years that they are no friend or ally of the American Citizenry.

The citizens of europe have only brought misery and suffering to the citizens of America throughout the 20th century. Feminism, Communism and Socialism are all european constructs that have no logical relevance to America at all(Women in euro-land did suffer greatly, class based rapings where more common in the past then some would like to admit, while in America if a rapist regardless of economic class, if they weren't hanged by a court of law the American Citizenry took it unto themselves for better or worse).

It is bad enough they are forcing their political constructs of what is "left wing" and what is "right wing" down our throats. The sooner America is divorced from euro-land the better I say.

The end of the slave trade began in 1803 in Denmark. When Britain abolished slavery in 1807 they actively set about destroying the industy world wide, setting up a squadron to hunt slave ships. But none the less it took untill 1864 for the U.S to abolish slavery.

In 1898, the Spanish-American War began in Cuba and reached the Philippines. Aguinaldo declared Philippine independence from Spain in Kawit, Cavite on June 12, 1898 and the First Philippine Republic was established the following year. Meanwhile, the islands were ceded by Spain to the United States for US$20 million dollars in the 1898 Treaty of Paris.[41] As it became increasingly clear the United States would not recognize the First Philippine Republic, the Philippine-American War broke out. It ended with American control over the islands which were then administered as an insular area.[42]

So America itself has a history of colonialism i am afraid, and to group all European Nations into the same category in regards to it is wrong.

The two liberal colonial governments were Great Britain and the United States.

These two governments maintained a good record with respect to the rule of law, civil liberties, political participation, open education, and economic opportunity. Both were willing to allow their colonies to become independent and had begun to prepare them for future independence before the Second World War began.

Repressive colonial governments. The Spanish, Dutch, and French had a very different attitude toward their colonies.

They generally placed the European in a superior legal position, and limited civil liberties. Political activities were discouraged. Access to modern education was restricted in numbers and to certain social groups. Censorship was common. Southeast Asians were not encouraged to engage in modern economic activities. And there were major problems of corruption in the Spanish and French colonial governments.

In regards to the "years of raping, pillaging and murdering" let us take a look at some more U.S History


1.United States, eradication of the American Indians (1775-1890)
◦Russel Thornton, American Indian Holocaust and Survival (1987)
■Overall decline
■From 600,000 (in 1800) to 250,000 (in 1890s)
■Indian Wars, from a 1894 report by US Census, cited by Thornton. Includes men, woman and children killed, 1775-1890:
■Individual conflicts:
■Whites: 5,000
■Indians: 8,500
■Wars under the gov't:
■Whites: 14,000
■Indians: 30-45,000
■TOTAL:
■Whites: 19,000
■Indians: 38,500 to 53,500
■TOTAL: 65,000 ± 7,500
◦William Osborn: The Wild Frontier: atrocities during the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee (2000)
■Deaths caused by specific settler atrocities: 7,193 (1623-1890)
■Deaths caused by specific Indian atrocities: 9,156 (1511-1879. Incl. Indian vs. Indian)
■Osborne basically defines an atrocity as murder or torture of civilians and prisoners. Most of your outright massacres are counted, but the Trail of Tears, for example, isn't.
◦Trail of Tears (1838-39)
■Trager, The People's Chronology: 4,000 out of 14,000 Cherokee die on route.
■Osborne: anywhere between 1,846 and 18,000 Indians died, in total.

So a little hypocritical of you one would think.

As for the idea that the products of free thinking people such as communism are the result of Europe at large is laughable. If you were to read the Communist manifesto you would realise the bulk of it has already come to fruition and it is mostly a outdated historical document, the only places it is still of relevance is where people live in abject poverty and opression. And i can not see how people in such situations they should not be aloud to dream of a better life, however it may be had.

On defence you are correct we do not spend anywhere near as much as we should, but in terms of the ability to defend ourselves we still have two nuclear nations, and i expect our attitude to conventional means of defence will slowly alter as other nations (Russia & India for example) continue to rebuild or develop. For that matter Britain and France still retain excellant armed forces, with certainly Britain, investing in the technology to ensure ,should the need arise, we have the ability to bulk up our Milliatarys.

As for all of Europe not being your friend or ally i find that personally insulting. The U.K has been your steadfast ally for years ,even when your Government stands idly by while half of South America lineup to back Argentina in a hypothetical war against us, and at present at great loss of life to our armed forces in Afghanistan.

reply to post by Rocketman1




The worst(smallpox blankets) was the result of Red-coats during the French and Indian war.

That said alot of bad stuff happened. What Andrew Jackson did wasn't right(technically an act of treason because he ignored a Supreme Court ruling on the matter).

Your also forgetting a few key things, 1) by the time wave 1 and the natives managed to get along a 2nd wave from europe with a "indians are animals" mindset came over, and 2) Most of the displaced or sadly now extinct natives fought against the colonist's in almost all of our war's from the french and Indian war to the civil war.

That resulted in a highly anti-Indian mindset in the nation.
Actually I think the worst thing America did was how the US treated the Philippines after the Spanish-American war.
Most American "Imperialism" was nothing more than to keep the powers of europe at bay. From our intervention in the boxer rebellion to arming Japan with the latest weapons and tactics of the era(which enabled them to fight on par with the Russians and maintain firm control of their territory)

Now let's take a look at the good old land of Albion

In the 1770's-late 1800's famine caused by the trading practices of the East India Company resulted in the deaths of over 10 million people. And under continued "Good British rule" 24-27 million people died(or more).

After the American civil war Britain lost it's source of cheap cotton, so forced cotton to be grown in India in place of staple crops. Resulting in many more untold deaths. And that is just in one nation that the British "overseen".

Heck Sir Richard Temple conducted research(in all fairness after he was reprimanded for trying to do something about the mass starvation's) into how little a human being needed to eat in order to survive and work. And Under Lord Lytton even trying to help the starving was punishable with imprisonment.
He even forced the nation of India to send the vast majority of it's grain production to feed the UK as millions upon millions where dieing of starvation. So London ate India's bread while India was starving to death.

Look at what the British did to the Zulu and Boers. The Boers had a free Republic since the 1600's, they where an ultra peaceful people until gold was discovered and they didn't want it touched. So the British came in and tried to force the Boers into submission. Even without a standing army they resisted the British for 4 or so years until the British resorted to burning Churchs and killing women and children as a matter of tactic.

Th Zulu's had a decent sized Empire until they where totally crushed by the British, almost near annihilated.
And most of the troubles in the Middle East can be traced to British mismanagement after the first world war.

Then there is the opium war's. If you think America's whole ill-gotten contra incident was bad we American's have nothing on the British when it comes to peddling drugs.

You can't compare American Imperialism with the powers of europes Imperialism. We may not be saints but we are a far cry from the the monsters your direct ancestors undeniably where.

That is the thing that get's me about EU citizens, they are so quick to bad-mouth America, but even quicker to hide and ignore their mountains of skeletons.

And the one thing everyone is quick to forget is that American's don't want to be the lone super-power. A good number hoped the EU would get it's act together and be a good partner but that failed miserably. We hoped China as it became wealthier would become a free nation that we could count on, that failed miserably too.

In the grand scheme of things when mercenaries outnumber all our "allies" combined, America stands alone. And looking at the BP disaster where the British citizenry where more concerned with their pensions then the damage BP caused, and knowing if the situation was reversed the British Citizens probably would of stormed the American embassy, just makes me sick.

Then you add all this conspiracy stuff and the good old UK is right in the middle of it all. + The British are directly responsible for Jerry Springer. Enough said.

reply to post by korathin


I am not compareing it at all, i am merely saying that the previous chap's idea that Europe is 99% responsible for Americas problems is wrong. And to go on about imperialism when America was clearly a Imperialist nation (regardless of motives) is hypocritical. Furthermore i never said we were perfect, we were not at all. I am not compareing, just pointing out that you shouldnt throw rocks in glass houses, both Europe and the U.S have done bad things. Just because one has done more does not give the other any moral high ground at all.
As for the BP thing, as per normall, no mention of Halliburton Energy or Transocean who were both also culpable to some extent. And the only thing i noticed from us brits was a puzzlement of why it seemed you were targeting us, BP is a multi national company who also clearly stated from the off that they would take responsibility. In fact since i joined i have not seen any America bashing from Europeans maybe from else where in the world but not us, nor was i. I was merely responding to the previous chap.

Good point on Jerry, if it makes you feel better we have to suffer him too!