I'm sick of Democracy! Give Me Monarchy!

Originally posted by xenophanes85
Now the question is, would it have worked? Or would we have become another USSR/Russia?

Well obviously we would never know.

But the Socialists were very popular in the 1900's and winning a lot of government seats. Also, the IWW was formed around this time which furthered the Socialists agenda.

Ill think theoretically for a moment.

I say it would not have worked for one simple reason: people are natually greedy. They couldn't stand not having more than the other person. Where do you think the expressions "He who dies with the most toys, wins." and "Keeping up with the Jonses" came from? I'll tell you. It came from the mindset of the greedy human (especially Americans). The mindset of the cliche (typical? most?) American:

MORE! MORE! MORE!
MORE WORK = MORE MONEY = MORE STUFF = MORE HAPPINESS!
WE WANT LEISURE TIME BUT WE DONT WANT TO HAVE TO WORK OR PAY TAXES SO WE SUE MCDONALDS FOR THEIR HOT COFFEE AND WIN!

Can you say "contradictory"? Greed will destroy the world.

[edit on 7/6/04 by xenophanes85]

Yes exactly, all forms of human led (what other type is there...) governments are all fatally flawed and lead to a fall... the only question is which flaws appeal to you the most? I guess if you can answer that question for yourself then you'll know what country you would enjoy living in the most.

For example, I'd like to live in Norway but most the people there speak the official language of Norway, since I don't speak that language then I would not be able to complain about the government there.... thats a flaw I couldn't put up with, so I'll stay in America where everyone understands my looney raving!

In theory and idealology is great and works for the people and the country... in practice however the human factor is thrown in and nothing works for anyone, democracy, monarchy, communism, socialism... they're all good in theory, but in practice you can see what the results are. So Lockheed, even if you went monarchist, you'll find you'll be complaining about the same things all over again.

Originally posted by xenophanes85
If true communism or true socialism could actually work, I would want to live in a world like that.

theres something wrong with you.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by xenophanes85
If true communism or true socialism could actually work, I would want to live in a world like that.

theres something wrong with you.

very constructive ivan...

I agree with xenophanes, communism and socialism are the best ideologies in theory, in practice though communism is one of the most corrupt, socialism however is quite appealing (if not as great as the theoretical version)... even democracy is corrupted when put into practice (corporate sopnsorship, election rigging, denying access to voting facilities etc etc)

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by xenophanes85
If true communism or true socialism could actually work, I would want to live in a world like that.

theres something wrong with you.

You are from Russia, so you obviously have a bias towards communism - the failed attempt you must try to live in (the post-USSR; Russia) is an example of what would most likely happen. However, when I said "true socialism amd true communism" I was using the word true in the sense of the theoretical, intentional ideal, not one marred by the greed of man. You obviously did not read my explanation so next time you have the urge to say something like that, please collect all the data, explanations, and/or opinions before you open your rude, immature mouth.

[edit on 7/7/04 by xenophanes85]

Originally posted by specialasianX
I agree with xenophanes, communism and socialism are the best ideologies in theory

Very true SpecialasianX. The problem is that you always have some bastard s who want to be 'more equal' than everyone else. Take Ceausescu of Romania for example - The country was supposedly a communist country (ie everyone was equal). However the fact was that Ceaucescu and his secret police ruled the country with a rod of iron and anyone disagreeing with them ended up in jail or worse. It was not communist - it was a dictatorship.

True communism is good - but the 'pseudo communism' we have had so far over the years is utter bollocks.

Now that you mention it,

Has a country ever established true communism? Even for just a little while? I can't recall any country that actually, even for a day, had all the equality and greatness of communism without some power hungry elite ruining it for everyone....

of course I could be wrong....

Originally posted by lockheed
Has a country ever established true communism? Even for just a little while? I can't recall any country that actually, even for a day, had all the equality and greatness of communism without some power hungry elite ruining it for everyone....
of course I could be wrong....

actually... there was, though it wasn't really a country.
... the 'commune of paris' of 1871.
after their defeat against the prussians, the people of the city of paris refused to concede.
soon the proletariat rose up and formed a militia and barricaded the city.
it was one of the first historic indications of a united workers' revolution.

On March 18, 1871 , the people of Paris rose against a despised and detested government, and proclaimed the city independent free, belonging to itself.

This overthrow of the central power took place without the usual stage effects of revolution, without the firing of guns, without the shedding of blood upon barricades. When the armed people came out into the streets, the rulers fled away, the troops evacuated the town, the civil functionaries hurriedly retreated to Versailles carrying everything they could with them. The government evaporated like a pond of stagnant water in a spring breeze, and on the nineteenth the great city of Paris found herself free from the impurity which had defiled her, with the loss of scarcely a drop of her children's blood. [ more ]

but you shouldn't let the myths created about the soviet union cloud your judgement.
there has been many freedoms that sprouted from the influence of the ussr...
which the west has never experienced... probably never will.

here's a piece from 'the kitchen debate'... with nixon and kruschev.

[Both men enter kitchen in the American exhibit.]
Nixon: I want to show you this kitchen. It is like those of our houses in California.
[Nixon points to dishwasher.]
Khrushchev: We have such things.
Nixon: This is our newest model. This is the kind which is built in thousands of units for direct installations in the houses. In America, we like to make life easier for women...
Khrushchev: Your capitalistic attitude toward women does not occur under Communism.
Nixon: I think that this attitude towards women is universal. What we want to do, is make life more easy for our housewives.....

Nixon: This house can be bought for $14,000, and most American [veterans from World War II] can buy a home in the bracket of $10,000 to $15,000. Let me give you an example that you can appreciate. Our steel workers as you know, are now on strike. But any steel worker could buy this house. They earn $3 an hour. This house costs about $100 a month to buy on a contract running 25 to 30 years.
Khrushchev: We have steel workers and peasants who can afford to spend $14,000 for a house. Your American houses are built to last only 20 years so builders could sell new houses at the end. We build firmly. We build for our children and grandchildren. [ more ]

[edit on 7-7-2004 by echelon]

Originally posted by specialasianX


very constructive ivan...

I agree with xenophanes, communism and socialism are the best ideologies in theory, in practice though communism is one of the most corrupt, socialism however is quite appealing (if not as great as the theoretical version)... even democracy is corrupted when put into practice (corporate sopnsorship, election rigging, denying access to voting facilities etc etc)

the people who want communism are people who dont want to work for anything in a demoracy. thats why they vote liberal. the liberal government
will give people something for nothing. wefare for instance. people wont look for work while the government is just handing money out that been taxed form the people who do bust their asses everyday.

communism sucks. libearls dont think that because they want what people who are better off then they themselves have. and if they cant get it by doing nothing they want the people who are better off to be taxed so liberals can feel better about themselves when they know that hard working people are paying for the # that the liberals want.

im damn glad that communism will never work! and you can quote me on that!

Originally posted by xenophanes85

Originally posted by KrazyIvan

Originally posted by xenophanes85
If true communism or true socialism could actually work, I would want to live in a world like that.

theres something wrong with you.

You are from Russia, so you obviously have a bias towards communism - the failed attempt you must try to live in (the post-USSR; Russia) is an example of what would most likely happen. However, when I said "true socialism amd true communism" I was using the word true in the sense of the theoretical, intentional ideal, not one marred by the greed of man. You obviously did not read my explanation so next time you have the urge to say something like that, please collect all the data, explanations, and/or opinions before you open your rude, immature mouth.

im from nebraska and born in the US by american parents form the ohio kentucky indiana tri sate region! please collect all your data before you open your mouth please.

I just assumed Mumansk was in Russia, and going by your name "KrazyIvan" I thought of some Russian government leader. The difference between what I did and what you did is, I just made assumptions while you conveniantly "forgot" to read my explantion. And the only reason why I want true communism or true socialism, is so that everyone will truly be equal; no more Bill Gates, no more homeless. I'd say that was a pretty noble reason.

[edit on 7/7/04 by xenophanes85]

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: Democracy SIMPLY doesn't work."
- News Anchor Kent Brockman (The Simpsons)

are goverment is its own little type of goverment and its bad and corrupt. we have freedom but in some ways we dont and most people fail to realize it. we need to be reformed but not with a monarchy. the medieval and dark ages were all monarchys but they didnt work so it sure would not now.

Well I think we are all decided that Monarchy would suck, so uh... what can we do to fix the corruption and all?

Originally posted by xenophanes85
...And the only reason why I want true communism or true socialism, is so that everyone will truly be equal; no more Bill Gates, no more homeless. I'd say that was a pretty noble reason.

Ah, the "idle rich"... you're assuming that Bill Gates never had to work hard for his money. Bill Gates may be retired now, because he's made a fortune, but what did he do to gain that fortune? He didn't win the lottery, or find it buried in an abandoned yard or anything. He earned it. In Microsoft's early days, when it was "just another company", Gates was known to work 80+ hour work weeks, and went many years without any vacation whatsoever (such is life when you're running your own business). Should Bill Gates be punished for developing a series of products that millions of people voluntarily buy and use every day?


Like everyone else in life, Bill Gates has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; he's subject to the same laws & regulations that all the rest of us are; and he also gets rewarded for hard work & success, and punished for failure, just like the rest of us are.

I've never understood the concepts of "Let's punish people for being successful or innovative" or "Let's reward people for not working"...


[edit on 7/12/2004 by ThunderCloud]

Very good point... the "evil" rich elite that actually earn their money definately deserve it... as for the John Kerrys of the world....

Originally posted by lockheed
Take a look at America today.... the politicians are dominated by big business and corruption runs rampant!

How is today's government any better than having a king in power. A king that is trustworthy and wise and takes time making decisions wouldn't be all too bad, in comparison to a congress that is bribed through lobbies.

The main problem is that in a democracy, opinion tends to center towards two opposing views, i.e. Democrats and Republicans and any other outside views are seen as "Extremist". Eventually these two opposing views will center into one view, as we see happening now with the similarity between John Kerry and George Bush.

Sadly, it has reached a point now where no matter what changes the democrats and republicans make this country is headed downwards. The only thing that could save us is a dictator or king and they would have to be a good person too.

I don't think you could find a good person who could be king so I'd say we are screwed!

Damn i totaly agree, Democracy sucks. It's turning the country to crap. People take advantage of it. Damn screw Monarchy...get me to be a Dictator. lol

Originally posted by lockheed
Now that you mention it,

Has a country ever established true communism? Even for just a little while? I can't recall any country that actually, even for a day, had all the equality and greatness of communism without some power hungry elite ruining it for everyone....

of course I could be wrong....

I believe you're right. True socialism is like a rare-Earth element that doesn't exist in nature; chemists can create one of these elements in a lab, but they don't last for even a day! They quickly decay into a more common, naturally occuring Earth element isotope.

I think human socieities work the same way. Dicatorships (however distasteful) and democratic republics are the only two naturally existing human societies that can be stable. Socialism is totally artificial, on the other hand. It will quickly decay into either a dictatorship or democratic republic variant once created.

This reminds me of one of my favorite articles, from one of my favorite editorial writers, Thomas Sowell.

"How you look at the free market depends on how you look at human beings. If everyone were sweetness and light, socialism would be the way to go. Within the traditional family, for example, resources are often lavished on children, who don't earn a dime of their own. It is domestic socialism, and even the most hard-bitten capitalists practice it. Maybe some day we will discover creatures in some other galaxy who can operate a whole society that way. But the history of human beings shows that a nation with millions of people cannot operate like one big family..."

The whole article can be read at capmag.com...

Enjoy!

[edit on 7/12/2004 by ThunderCloud]