Mystic Mindstates through Irregular Time Signatures?

Listen to "Grow a Flower" by this band, Noble Robot, while you read what I'm about to say. Irregular time signatures such as the seven-beat measures used in this song have long been used in many ancient forms of music, the most immediate example being Indian music. I have put the same phenomenon in the context of a more western form of music (an unknown indie rock band) so that you can hopefully identify what I'm talking about. Some portions of the song use regular time signatures, but it is the others on which I'm focused here (the whole first 35 seconds is irregular, and thus of interest).

My idea, admittedly supported only by very limited evidence and my intuition, is that these rhythmic structures can stimulate vibrational, energetic, mental, emotional, and/or spiritual changes on a level that *regular* music doesn't. Though I certainly wouldn't listen to something as "western" as Noble Robot for meditation, I do notice that my mind feels a sort of indescribable feeling when hearing the beginning of this song that makes me want to keep replaying it. The beginning is in an irregular time signature. All thoughts are welcome!

It seems plausible. I myself am a musician. I find that off beat time signatures like 7/8 and 3/4 to be rather weird. People naturally compose music in 4/4, it's basically the default time signature. I could see how off beat time signatures could create mystical states but you would also have to use certain keys and chord progressions that create dissonance that reverberates in that time signature.

For example if you played some heavy metal with triplets, sixteenth notes, etc. in 7/8 it really wouldn't create a mystical state, it's too frantic. But if you used it in a classical setting it would have a better chance on creating a "mystical" state.

I personally believe euphoric states can be made through music but I think it depends on the combinations of notes and dissonance that you use.

Well this is something I've been hoping to be proved for a very long time haha! Unfortunately, from what I've read, the most mind altering time signature is 4/4, specifically with a kick drum on each beat like you find in most forms of 'dance' music. I've read a bit about it but can't remember where lol hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in!

Personally I love unusual time signatures! Weather they literally alter the vibratory frequency of your mind or not, I find it much more rewarding and interesting to listen to different time signatures, as well as experiments with polyrhythmic/polymetric rhythms.

I find 4/4 so boring!

Just wanted to add..

It is worth noting that Prog Rock both uses irregular time signatures and discusses metaphysical/philosophical ideas in its lyrics, so there could indeed be a connection!

I believe the most plausible explanation to be that you simply enjoy "irregular" time signatures. I am a musician and find "odd" time signatures to be musically interesting and challenging. The same goes for some listeners.

As far as "mystic mindstates" being generated by certain musical repetitions...that's simply your subjective emotional response to it.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Refer to this thread, www.abovetopsecret.com... , entitled "6 mystical notes that open the third eye" or something similar about solfeggio frequencies. What I'm proposing is the same sort of concept from a rhythmic perspective--that there are rhythmic archetypes each inducing various ranges of mental/energetic/etc. change, even if it is imperceptible to someone unaware of what to look for. I intuitively feel that irregular time signatures have some special significance in regard to this, but I admit I could be wrong.

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
Well this is something I've been hoping to be proved for a very long time haha! Unfortunately, from what I've read, the most mind altering time signature is 4/4, specifically with a kick drum on each beat like you find in most forms of 'dance' music. I've read a bit about it but can't remember where lol hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in!

Personally I love unusual time signatures! Weather they literally alter the vibratory frequency of your mind or not, I find it much more rewarding and interesting to listen to different time signatures, as well as experiments with polyrhythmic/polymetric rhythms.

I find 4/4 so boring!

Just wanted to add..

It is worth noting that Prog Rock both uses irregular time signatures and discusses metaphysical/philosophical ideas in its lyrics, so there could indeed be a connection!

edit on 20-12-2010 by March of the Fire Ants because: (no reason given)

I wholeheartedly agree. I love Animal Collective in part for how often they use these irregular time signatures; in fact, they are a band whose music comes through as strangely and powerfully spiritual at times. I see what you mean about prog rock as well.

Originally posted by elfulanozutan0
I personally believe euphoric states can be made through music but I think it depends on the combinations of notes and dissonance that you use.

That's a good point--there are other factors at work here. For the purpose of this discussion, I suppose I've put that out of my mind, for better or for worse.

Originally posted by Sunspots
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

Refer to this thread, www.abovetopsecret.com... , entitled "6 mystical notes that open the third eye" or something similar about solfeggio frequencies. What I'm proposing is the same sort of concept from a rhythmic perspective--that there are rhythmic archetypes each inducing various ranges of mental/energetic/etc. change, even if it is imperceptible to someone unaware of what to look for. I intuitively feel that irregular time signatures have some special significance in regard to this, but I admit I could be wrong.

edit on 20-12-2010 by Sunspots because: clarity

I saw that thread and didn't find it convincing. What's a "third eye" anyway? Nothing. I've also heard that retuning an instrument to a specific frequency other than 440 can have some sort of tangible effects. There are videos online that experiment with it and nothing happens or changes other than a variation in pitch.

Quite simply, there are certain songs, movements, notes, etc. that have emotional impacts on us - some more profound than others. I can think of dozens of examples. And odd-metered songs are no different. For me, 7/8 (particularly, "Greek 7/8") seems "natural" to me, though to many people anything in 7 seems imbalanced. It's simply a subjective preference. If odd meters had any real effect, then any time we played Rush or Dave Brubeck we'd be entrancing all the listeners present. Plus, we'd expect that the performers would have to be entranced while playing it. This simply doesn't happen, though it's be cool if it did.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I saw that thread and didn't find it convincing. What's a "third eye" anyway? Nothing.

I personally believe that the third eye is many things--our pineal gland firstly (which I believe is the soul's window into the physical/mental world a la Des Cartes), our 6th chakra, our center of psychic/mystical experience etc.

I've also heard that retuning an instrument to a specific frequency other than 440 can have some sort of tangible effects. There are videos online that experiment with it and nothing happens or changes other than a variation in pitch.

I'd be interested to hear exactly what is supposed to happen.

Quite simply, there are certain songs, movements, notes, etc. that have emotional impacts on us - some more profound than others. I can think of dozens of examples. And odd-metered songs are no different. For me, 7/8 (particularly, "Greek 7/8") seems "natural" to me, though to many people anything in 7 seems imbalanced. It's simply a subjective preference. If odd meters had any real effect, then any time we played Rush or Dave Brubeck we'd be entrancing all the listeners present. Plus, we'd expect that the performers would have to be entranced while playing it. This simply doesn't happen, though it's be cool if it did.

Well that's certainly valid. You're right that there is a whole lot going on below the mystical level. Put it this way, I don't think a lot of research has been invested in this subject, and I don't think many people listen to, say, Indian music in 5/4 for an hour very often. My point is that science knows nothing about this and average people don't either, including myself. That's why I brought you here.

reply to post by Sunspots


I can't remember the exact pitch but I think there's even a thread here on ATS about it. Instead of tuning to A440 you tune to A432 (I think). As I said, there are videos on youtube with people experimenting with it.

As a skeptic I tend not to believe in "third eyes", chakras or anything mystical. I'm not saying they don't exist but as of yet there's no convincing evidence of any such thing. But I have spent the last 25+ years writing and performing music and in that time I've seen many instances in which a certain song can evoke two separate reactions: one person will be in musical bliss and the other will throw rotten tomatoes at the band. There doesn't seem to be any universal effect caused by notes, sequences of notes or processions of rhythm.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
reply to post by Sunspots

 

I can't remember the exact pitch but I think there's even a thread here on ATS about it. Instead of tuning to A440 you tune to A432 (I think). As I said, there are videos on youtube with people experimenting with it.

As a skeptic I tend not to believe in "third eyes", chakras or anything mystical. I'm not saying they don't exist but as of yet there's no convincing evidence of any such thing. But I have spent the last 25+ years writing and performing music and in that time I've seen many instances in which a certain song can evoke two separate reactions: one person will be in musical bliss and the other will throw rotten tomatoes at the band. There doesn't seem to be any universal effect caused by notes, sequences of notes or processions of rhythm.

That's where we differ -- I guess I'm quick to believe that sort of thing. I respect your very logical standpoint though, in all seriousness.

I agree five thousand percent with the OP's basic biscuit...music is mind-control tech, truly...

Check out this press release from La Monte Young...I think he has some similar ideas. oh yes...

Brain entrainment - I am so interested in the effect of sound on the brain through trance and other methods I have thought of pursuing advanced study in this. Music - soundwaves - does effect our brain waves. I had a rather bizzare reaction to a delta wave CD given to me by a therapist. It caused me to have a severe panic attack, I pulled the headphones off immediately. I am a Veteran and I guess Delta wave manipulation does hair trigger us . . . this subject and why this happened could be a whole different thread. My feeling from that experience is either on purpose or by accident I had been exposed to sound waves that had altered my perception in some way that triggered my attack. It could be as simple as the radar signiture effect from my time deployed. Some people can 'hear" radar - and this is not done by the ears either - it is felt, by the brain - in that famous pineal gland location.

There is a place called Hemi Sync - and as a matter of fact the CD that made me so anxious came from there. By accident I stumbled across one of the real "Men who stare at Goats" guy Joseph McMoneagle on you tube and I was intrigued enough to look further into him - he did remote viewing for the US Government when we played around with that stuff. Anyway he ended up married to the lady who was the step daughter of the founder of Hemi Sync . . . very interesting. There was a time our government paid to send CIA reps to the Hemi sync location for "camps" based around sound therapies and brain entrainment in the hopes of making them better agents.

Of course music is but one type of sound pathway to the brain. Interesting subject of which we have just scratched the surface.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Read '___': The Spirit Molecule by Dr. Rick Strassman. You'll be convinced of a 3rd Eye. It's a scientific study conducted in the early '90s.

reply to post by elfulanozutan0


OMG - I am reading it now, I kid you not!!!
Here is the article on hearing without your ears . . . enjoy.

Sensation of Hearing in Electromagnetic Fields, Clyde E Ingalls, Ithaca, New York
From the Cornell University, School of Electrical Engineering and Cornell Aeronautical Laboratory, Inc.
A series of experiments is described in which radar transmitters operating at 1,3, and 10 kilovolt megacycles per sec were “heard”. Apparently, the process of hearing did not involve the ear, but included only the brain and nervous system in the vicinity of the brain.
The effect takes place at energy levels that are considered safe for exposure all day. The effect is suggested as a means of aiding in the location of hearing difficulties in persons. It is also discussed in connection with reports of the hearing of meteors and auroras.
Hearing radar
An interest in problems connected with re-entry bodies in the atmosphere led to an interest in reports of “hearing” meteors and auroras. The hearing of meteors was supposedly under conditions requiring sound to travel at a velocity far exceeding the velocity of sound in air at 343 M per second, probably approaching the velocity of electromagnetic wave propagation. At this time there was a report of someone hearing a radar at an installation in Turkey. On investigation, this proved to be true.
A like radar was found in the United States and a meter secured for field strength measurements to avoid overexposure and possible damage to the eyes, brain, or other parts of the body. Although there was considerable ambient noise, the radar could be heard by a person who immersed himself in the edge of the beam, the center of the beam being strong enough to be hazardous. The sound was something like that of a bee buzzing on a window, but with, perhaps, more high frequencies.
Possibility of the effect being noise by sound waves from the radar was eliminated by placing a large (about 3 by 3 foot) square of window screening between the observer and the radar, close to the observer. With the screen shield in place, the radar sound disappeared. A hole was cut in the screening, large enough to put the ear through. When the ear was put through the hole, there still was no sound. The only part of the body which allowed the observer to hear the radar was a place on the head above the forehead.
From this, it appears that the electromagnetic wave effects the nervous system at the brain directly and does not use the normal auditory channels. No disturbance in the visual senses was found, although a search was made. Possibly the like visual senses are shielded more by the head.
The sound seemed to come from about a meter or two above the head. This varied somewhat with individuals. Placing the fingers to cut out ambient sound made the source seem to come down to the very top of the head. This is the same spot on the head at which the source seems to be when two well-separated loud-speakers with identical excitation are used and the observer is located at equal distances from the two speakers and facing them, Placing the fingers in the ears in reasonable ambient noise does not seem greatly to affect the threshold value at which the radar is heard.
Persons with defective hearing were taken to the radar location. Some of them could hear the radar and some could not. It seemed to depend on the type of hearing loss and the frequencies involved. All who could hear high frequencies could hear the radar. A person who, apparently, had normal hearing, could not hear the radar. By taking an audiogram, he was found to have deficient hearing above 1,500 Hertz, seriously so above 3,000 Hertz per second.
Other radars were used, and it was found that it was possible to “hear” radars at approximately 1, 3, and 10 giga Hertz. Measurements of the threshold of “hearing” of the radars at 1 giga Hz showed the free field strength to be 0.3 milliwatts per square centimetre at a peek voltage gradient of 12 volts per centimetre. At 3 giga Hz, the corresponding threshold values were 0.18 milliwatts per square centimetre and 18 volts per centimetre. No measurements were made at 10 giga Hz.
The apparent lack of correlation of watts and volts is due to differing pulse lengths and repetition rates. The effect is seen to cover a very broad radio-frequency band.
An electrostatic field was produced between two plates and the head placed between them in various positions. Even much higher than the threshold values mentioned failed to produce effects which could be attributed to other than normal aural paths from 20 to 20,000 Hz.
Bracing the plates essentially eliminated their vibration, but the skin on the face could be heard to vibrate. No coil was available to produce magnetic fields when the coil itself did not make too much noise for proper discernment. It appears that tests must be made at modulated inaudible frequencies.
It appears that the “hearing” of electromagnetic waves is a very broad band audio-frequency effect, that is, the audio frequencies which are “heard” from a pulsed radar seem to extend to a higher frequency that can be heard normally from a noise source and a loud speaker. Experiments in matching the sound from a radar indicated that a noise source should be used for best matching, but the sound from the noise source still seemed to lack something in the high frequency region.
If the effect does indeed bypass the ear, it would seem that the effect should be valuable in determining where certain hearing defects occure physically. The possibility exists of modulating a device, such as a radar, to sample audio intelligence and communicate with an individual with defective hearing. It appears that pulse operation is necessary to have low average but high peak power. A disadvantage is that the range of power between the threshold of “hearing” radar and the level at which bodily harm can occur, with prolonged exposure, is not as great as would be desirable. The threshold of “hearing” occurs at 200 to 300 microwatts per square centimetre, and the “safe” level for working all day in radar fields is about 10 milliwatts per square centimetre, using probably at least a 10 to 1 safety factor; that is, the level of bodily damage is probably somewhat above 100 milliwatts per square centimetre.
Sommer and Von Gierke have done a great deal of work with electric fields, showing that the skin on the head can be vibrated by an electric field and that the sound reaches the ear by bone conduction. Likewise, the eardrum can be vibrated directly by an electric field. They infer that the “hearing” which occurs in radar beams is caused by the pressure exerted by the electromagnetic wave, that is, twice the power density divided by the velocity being the maximum pressure when the reflection from the head is complete.
However, they have done no work with electromagnetic waves and so can only speculate.
It is very difficult to use electrical instruments for measurements of nerves to determine what is occurring within the head, since the measuring instruments are affected directly by the electromagnetic waves.
It appears that indirect methods will be needed to determine the exact method by which “hearing” of electromagnetic waves takes place.
Certain evidence points to the fact that the effect is not due to either air or bone conduction. First, the best sensitivity of the ear, according to Sommer and Von Gierke, is to air conduction, by two orders of magnitude. The maximum peak pressure during a radio frequency cycle of a radar, even with 100 per cent reflection, is about equal to the sensitivity of the ear to the root mean square pressure of a continuous sine wave at 1000 cycles per second. The average pressure of the radar wave at the threshold of “hearing” is roughly three orders of magnitude less than the average pressure of a sine wave in air at the threshold of hearing air waves. This results from the low duty cycle of the radar wave.
Second, the location of the most sensitive area for “hearing” radar is remote from the ears, on top of the head. Third, the subjective frequency spectrum seems to include higher frequencies for radar “hearing” than for normal hearing of air waves. Forth, the direction from which sound seems to come does not change as the head is turned about in the radar field.
From these considerations, it appears that neither air conduction nor bone conduction gives a satisfactory explanation of the “hearing” of radar waves. A direct involvement of the nervous system appears to furnish a more satisfactory explanation or at least a more fruitful avenue of investigation. However, much more work is needed to determine either the mechanism by which the phenomenon takes place or its practical use.
Conclusion
The “hearing” of electromagnetic waves is an established fact. It appears that this takes place by direct stimulation of the nervous system, perhaps in the brain, thus bypassing the ear and much of the associated hearing system. It is a possible, perhaps the most probable, explanation of the reports of hearing meteors and auroras. It is also a possible tool in the investigation and treatment of problems in hearing.
Much more work in this field is needed.

I believe in was African writer Malidoma Some who talked about drumming all night long and at a certain point, usually by 2 or 3 am, a certain threshold is crossed and people enter into the spirit realm and things start to get interesting-those mystical mindstates.

In my 15 years of attending the Starwood pagan festival I have spent many nights "crossing the threshold" dancing around a fire with up to 40 drummers in blissful polyrhythm and the ease or difficulty in reaching that space does have a lot to do with the rhythms used, and the rhythms change noticeably once that space is entered.

Music has long been a tool for consciousness alteration and rhythm is definitely integral to that. Specific rhythms? I know what works for me, that's about it.

Here is an interesting video about the effect of frequency:



Anything repetitive and progressive will affect the mind and the imagination, depending on the emotions produced through the music, to achieve specific states would require a masterpiece, much like the musical masterpieces of old, they generate particular feelings, particular moods that allow them to transcend regular listening.

Not to start down a disturbing path, but back in my college days I worked at a Long Term Psychiatric Care Facility (Hospital) and the kids that would cut on themselves would cue up particular songs and music. I won't say what exacly but we knew when that music started coming out of the room we had a problem on our hands. They actually discussed particular bands and songs when you were in training.

While deployed - before going in on contingencies music was also utilized to "get in the mood" to charge up the courage - that might be very offensive and distrubing for some to read. It was the same with the Wrestling teams in High school, hoods up before hoodies were in - warming up to particular songs. Lunitic Fringe being a popular choice. (I am probably aging myself)

Soothing music can calm alzheimers patients. So music, tones, harmony, hertz waves, drumming or chanting in sync with the beat of the human heart - are all hugely influential on mood. There is another thread I think in the ancient cultures area concerning caves and sound chambers built by primative peoples how mindbending is that? Think about it we are exposed to sound in the womb, the rush of blood - the swoosh of our mothers heartbeat which is an electrical signal - we are exposed always to sound and it effects our brains on levels that we are still learning about. Its awesome isn't it?