oozyism's guide to constructive discussion

Introduction

A huge number of new members have joined ATS, I think it is important to set up a guide to constructive discussion.

Many threads have been trolled, spammed and completely diverted and have become useless considering objectivity.

To change that, I have created this thread to discuss how we can improve our discussion, to help us end threads with conclusions rather than uncertainty.

Point number1 (what is your point)

First you have to understand fully what your point is.

For example, "America is bad".

Point number2 (prove your point)

What do you have to support your point?

What evidence do you have which helped you come to this conclusion?

For example "America is bad because it invaded Iraq for no legitimate reasons (false reasons), and risked millions of lives in the process".

Point number3 (how to counter constructively)

How can you counter the above assertion constructively?

To help you differentiate between constructive and nonconstructive counter,

I will lay the un-constructive counter first.

An Example of un-constructive counter would be:
("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one
"You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points"
"You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite"
"You are an idiot")
....

Why is the above nonconstructive counter? Because it takes the focus away from the original point, hence," US is bad".

Pointing out that Saddam was worse, is not constructive.

An example of a constructive counter would be to ask certain questions regarding the OP:
"Does US invading Iraq for illegitimate reasons, make US bad?"
"Is US defined by just one small portion of history"?
"Is US defined by just one action?"
"How can US be bad if it is also good?"

You are trying to counter his point, not his evidence which backs his point.

-If the evidence is clearly false, then it is understandable to concentrate on the evidence rather than the point.
-If the evidence is uncertain, tell him how the evidence is uncertain, and leave it at that, or ask him for other evidence which backs his point.
-If the evidence is true, concentrate on the point, rather than the evidence.

Point number4 (If evidence backing his point is true)

If it is true, then concentrate on the point, rather than trying to divert attention.

For Example, "Yes US invaded Iraq for illegitimate reasons, but does that make the U.S. bad"?

For Example, "US has taken a lot of actions which are regarded as good, does that mean US is good using the same logic?"

Point number5 (conclusion)

1. If the opposition is correct, that US also has good qualities, along side the bad ones, then the point of the OP is flawed, and the discussion has come to a conclusion (even if the evidence is true).

In the above sense, the conclusion is, that yes US has done wrong, but that doesn't make the US wrong, the world is not black and white. In the same manner, US has done right, but that doesn't make the US right, the world is not black and white.

----------------------------------------------------

Add your thoughts regarding a constructive discussion which doesn't lead to the path of trolling, spamming, clear off-topicism etc.

What are we suppose to take in to consideration when we are discussing an issue?

The point?

The evidence backing the point?

etc

Thanks for your patience

oz

I notice that in this thread you say things, that you directly contradict in other threads.

The things you say NOT to do , you do repeatedly in other postings.......I think thats a bit hypocritical...


I also am not surprised that your using the US and Iraq conflict as a stage for your "proper" ways of debate.....

Seems like your tyring to indoctrinate people more to your point of view, then trying to foster proper discussion decorum........

reply to post by oozyism


More cheap shots at America disguised as a legit thread!. It would appear that this is the message behind thread as you have stated Anti American rhetoric at least ten times in the post. Do not be deceived there is nothing positive in this except more US & "the west" bashing. All I can say is if the west is so bad why don't you pack up, leave New Zealand & go back to Afghanistan"?. All you seem to do is complain about the west. The least you could do is leave if you feel that way!

Don't be deceived is it a front for massive anti American propaganda. Read it the proof is in the reading!

It's a double edged sword and ooz is good at what he does....



Ps. I still totally disagree with you ooz on most everything you say

but you get a flag for creativity

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


Your point is that I contradict myself.

Your evidence to back your point is" other threads".

Which other threads?

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism

 

More cheap shots at America disguised as a legit thread!. It would appear that this is the message behind thread as you have stated Anti American rhetoric at least ten times in the post. Do not be deceived there is nothing positive in this except more US & "the west" bashing. All I can say is if the west is so bad why don't you pack up, leave New Zealand & go back to Afghanistan"?. All you seem to do is complain about the west. The least you could do is leave if you feel that way!

Don't be deceived is it a front for massive anti American propaganda. Read it the proof is in the reading!

The above is a clear example of nonconstructive discussion

Thanks for the example Phatpackage, appreciate it.

By the way, if you bothered to read the OP before clicking reply then you would have came across thisL

An Example of un-constructive counter would be:
("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one
"You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points"
"You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite"
"You are an idiot")

reply to post by oozyism


It's the truth? If you are trying to make a point why all the America bashing then? Thank You you just proved me right!
You still can't answer the question why don't you go back to Afghanistan if the big bad west is so bad?

Well actually the Iraq thing you bought up. YOu show those comments in a negative light saying it is not constructive so yes you still denigrating the opinion. Massive fail!


America freed you & your family! stop biting the hand that fed you!. You sound very ungratefuL!

Nice guide SF

new members need to learn this guide A to Z or

reply to post by Ben81

new members need to learn this guide A to Z or

Only if you want to feed anti-american propaganda disguised as a legit thread! See it for what it is! If it was not why could he not do it without the anti usa stuff? I have just proven your whole thread is nothing but anti US propaganda! lol

reply to post by oozyism


Despite your example choice which I think you knew would probably prove your point..

Timely thread.. s&f

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by oozyism

 

It's the truth? If you are trying to make a point why all the America bashing then? Thank You you just proved me right!

American bashing? It is a guide showing how to and how not to discuss an issue. You are a living example of how a nonconstructive discussion works.

You still can't answer the question why don't you go back to Afghanistan if the big bad west is so bad?

That has also been discussed in the OP. Maybe you should read it sometimes:

If it is true, then concentrate on the point, rather than trying to divert attention.

Well actually the Iraq thing you bought up. YOu show those comments in a negative light saying it is not constructive so yes you still denigrating the opinion. Massive fail!

edit on 20-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

An Example of un-constructive counter would be:
("Iraq was bad before US invaded and occupied it". ---->Choosing this one
"You are a terrorist sympathizer for making such points"
"You are anti-American and anti-Western not to mention anti-Semite"
"You are an idiot")
....

Why is the above nonconstructive counter? Because it takes the focus away from the original point, hence," US is bad".

America freed you & your family! stop biting the hand that fed you!. You sound very ungratefuL!

edit on 20-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

If it is true, then concentrate on the point, rather than trying to divert attention.

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by Ben81

 

new members need to learn this guide A to Z or

Only if you want to feed anti-american propaganda disguised as a legit thread! See it for what it is! If it was not why could he not do it without the anti usa stuff? I have just proven your whole thread is nothing but anti US propaganda! lol

edit on 20-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

anti usa stuff ??
we already know the government system in canada and the usa is corrupted to the highest officials

anti gov is ok but anti americanism is not
we do have very good people in america .. the problem is the GOVERNMENT
still lying and continu to steal the peoples money to make wars etc .. stupid decision one after another

Originally posted by Ben81


anti usa stuff ??
we already know the government system in canada and the usa is corrupted to the highest officials

anti gov is ok but anti americanism is not
we do have very good people in america .. the problem is the GOVERNMENT
still lying and continu to steal the peoples money to make wars etc .. stupid decision one after another

Point

anti gov is ok but anti americanism is not

Evidence to support the point

we do have very good people in america .. the problem is the GOVERNMENT
still lying and continu to steal the peoples money to make wars etc .. stupid decision one after another

reply to post by oozyism

American bashing? It is a guide showing how to and how not to discuss an issue. You are a living example of how a nonconstructive discussion works.

Why could not do this with out bashing America? You do it every single chance you get!

Oh Oozy I have just beaten you again tut tut tut. You bashed America & tried to hide it in a legitimate looking thread! Yes this on topic. I am discussing the topic! So don't pull "off topic" rubbish!

reply to post by phatpackage


The topic is about productive discussions.

How about post something on topic and tell us how ATS should discuss the issues at hand?

Should they insult each other when ever the chance of disagreements come?

What defines a "new" person? People who have been here for less than a month? A year? 5 years? Does having a high WATS index but only being on ATS for 3 months give you more credence than somebody who has been here for 7 years with a low WATS index?

Most critical of all, where is the space between "number" and "1/2/3/4/5" in the headers?

oozyism is the WORST poster on ATS by a long shot, even in a forum of conspiracy theories he's the master at fear mongering and seems to harbor an intense hatred towards the US, I find this thread highly amusing and contradictory and no...I dont have the time to dig through your posts but I do know I have called you out several times on different subjects in the past as have many other members.

You have no right to post this.

reply to post by oozyism


I am discussing the first post you made & am asking you why you could not just make your point without all the anti american sentiment? Fair question you keep avoiding! Tell us what you really feel. legitimate question & on topic as it has to do with you have written. I can keep asking until I get a reply!

On topic and valid if the thread is a just front for more America bashing!

Originally posted by SonicInfinity
What defines a "new" person? People who have been here for less than a month? A year? 5 years? Does having a high WATS index but only being on ATS for 3 months give you more credence than somebody who has been here for 7 years with a low WATS index?

Most critical of all, where is the space between "number" and "1/2/3/4/5" in the headers?

It is not aimed at simply who just join ATS, but people who are not usually accustom to discussions without letting their emotions loose.

I hope you understand what I mean.

There are people out there who just join ATS, but have an incredible ability to creatively + productively discuss issues, avoiding personal attacks and diversion of attention.

As you've failed to address valid points I've made in a previous thread of yours (your reply was "lol" and/or "still trying?" - hardly the wonderful use of discussion you have chosen to enlighten us with in this thread), you should re-read what you have posted as you need to learn more than others.