Christians, Jews and Muslims - A Simple Question

Without reference to the doctrine of your religion; how would you go about proving your SPECIFIC God to someone, using only nature itself from what raw materials and knowledge we currently have an understanding of?

The key word is "SPECIFIC"

I will be willing to grant you that nature itself could be considered evidence(Deism argument); but not evidence that this God expresses that the words and morals of the QuRan, the Bible or Torah are in fact the truth. As how could you possibly deduce moral absolutism from nature itself? [Theism argument is that you can]

reply to post by awake_and_aware


there is only one God and it's not about proof but belief.

if you want to use nature as an example i would use the structure of dna and the programing embedded in it.

just like the mona lisa is proof of the existence of leonardo da vinci, the universe and all of creation is proof of God.

reply to post by randomname


Intelligent design is not the same as human design. You've obviously never heard the explanation put forward by Richard Dawkins in "The Blind Watchmaker"

There is only ONE God? Which one though? Is it the Jewish God? or the Christian God? Are you not scared of which doctrine to follow for fear of damnation to hell?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Without reference to the doctrine of your religion; how would you go about proving your SPECIFIC God to someone, using only nature itself from what raw materials and knowledge we currently have an understanding of?

The key word is "SPECIFIC"

God is that which created us, and created the universe. Nature created us, and the universe. Nature exists, so God exists.

God is all that is. Alpha to Omega. A to Z. Including nature.

God is life.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I will be willing to grant you that nature itself could be considered evidence(Deism argument); but not evidence that this God expresses that the words and morals of the QuRan, the Bible or Torah are in fact the truth. As how could you possibly deduce moral absolutism from nature itself?

It is easy to deduce from nature that love is the way. You can do scientific experiments that shows nature prefers love over hate, ease over disease, comfort over discomfort, peace over war, rest over motion, equality over inequality, truth over lies, etc.. So it is safe to assume that life should be lived full of love, ease, comfort, peace, rest, equality, truth, etc.. Morals should be set accordingly to those truths.

Therefore morals such as "love thy neighbor as thy self", and "thou shalt not murder", and "thou shalt not steal", etc., are all absolutes which man should live by and practice, according to nature.

God is all that is, including nature. Man is a part of nature, so God is within us all. If you look inside your self deep enough, you could find answers from God.

Well in the laws of our Universe we know that everything has to have an origin. Then the questions are:
Who created everything?
Who created the creator?

The answer to question number 1 is that god or whatever you wanna call it created the universe and everything in it.

The answer to question number 2 is that god has been, and always will be. He lives in a different dimension where the laws of that dimension our tiny human minds cannot comprehend.

reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy


You MUST be a pantheist. Look up the definition, i think you'll find it's exactly as you just described.

reply to post by tokyodynamite


You can't possibly know these answers, no homo-sapien can claim to.

Peace

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Judaism, Christianity and Islam are known as the Abrahamic religions - they ALL worship the same one God.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Your requirements prevent an impartial discussion.

How can the creator of everything be discussed with mandatory exclusions?

For example, your brain has two sides. One for logic and the other emotion. Can we talk about the left side only?

In creation, everything has its vibration resides with polarity.

We are all expressions of the creators desire to experience itself. Being unknowable different people have different paths from and back to the same source.

The Tao says all the ocean is most humble, stays low and all rivers and streams return to it.

Christ is a blueprint for me. A map. Every map has a destination but you can start from anywhere. However, I refuse the classification or categorization because I cannot manage the filters and understanding of the individual I speak to, specific to my beliefs.

Your existence proves God's. And like all cycles in life, applying universal law...the process of creation will eventually become the process of destruction.

Peace and thanks for taking the journey.

In Lak'ech Ala K'in

reply to post by zroth


While i appreciate the philosophy and ways of life of Toaism i see any set of belief basd on "faith" and not evidence to be extremely presumptious.

Taoism is more of a way of life, a philosophy. They don't claim any metaphysical knowledge that they could not possibly have. This is why mono-theistic doctrines are very dangerous. They dabble in "revealed wisdom" - No homo-sapien can claim to know the origin of the universe and what it's desires are.

If you wish to argue this point, please do so.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Nope, I am not here to argue.

An observation. Of what I wrote you took a snapshot, one piece or a component to base your response.

In the OP you ask people of faith to use nature to prove God's existence. I simply took one analogy that referenced the hydrological cycle.

Science will take any moment and call it "X". In nature things continue in cycles (e.g. -stasis, growth or dissolution). The apple is each of those (seed, tree, leaf, etc) not just the fruit that is bore.

If you are truly curious you will find what you seek. If your goal is to change the mind of others I am afraid you'll be upset.

In either case, I pray that you find what you are looking for.

reply to post by zroth


If you're theory was anything to be considered scientific, The "GOD" theory would be well discussed and popular theory in science, fortunately, it is not, because there is not empirical evidence for this.

You're not trying to argue? Well i am. I'm questioning your beliefs, asking why you believe in things, If that causes offense well to be quite honest i don't care. Politics, sports, medicine, scientific theories are not free from challenge, critique or debate, why should religion be any different? What makes it special?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by zroth

 

You're not trying to argue? Well i am.

My bad. I thought you were looking for proof. An argument is rooted in emotion which is devoid of logic and therefore prevents you from having a fact based discussion.

I am sure someone will come along and join you, although you really should change your original request because an argument is not scientific at all. It is natural though. But you won't find God in an argument. You'll find soldiers to choose one side or the other.

Peace

Hmm...I will try to answer your question differently.

If Theists are wrong, and Non-Theists are right, then Theists have nothing to loose. If Non-Theists are wrong and Theists are right, what then??

Peace

reply to post by Seed76


It's not a case of right and wrong, it's a case that Theists are willing to make presumptions before having evidence.

Atheists/Agnostics are simplying saying "no homo-sapien knows the origins of the universe currently" Anyone who claims to know is making an irrational, unfounded pressumption before having empirical evidence.

It's like me saying I believe the universe is infinite for definite, and this infinity has special powers, it's guesswork and very primitive guess work. It still coule be, on the other hand, very true, just as you could be. But its a guess.

Like guessing you have a diamond in your back garden before digging.

I've said before, and i'll say again, i CANNOT prove there is NO GOD. But i'm not willing to make assumptions either. I think it's phoney and unscientific.

Besides Theists are really Anti-Theist, they're against all Religions except they're own. So they are atheists, they just believe in one God more than me.

Do you understand my stance? I'm unwilling to make a guess as to the origin of the universe, anyone who claims to know based on an ancient doctrine should be challenged and asked WHY DO YOU ASSERT THIS BELIEF, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

In my opinion all those threads between Theists and Non-Theists, are always a debate between who is right and who is wrong, because we can not prove it or disprove it. It´s a matter of Faith and Believe. But to make my point a little more clear. Here is a story taken from the bible. For reference look at [John 20•24-29]

The Story of Thomas

One of the eleven disciples was missing. This was a man named Thomas.

After Jesus was gone, Thomas came back to the room where everyone was hiding. When he entered, the disciples told him, “Thomas, oh Thomas, it is true! We’ve seen Jesus! He’s alive! “He said to them, “No. I won’t believe it unless I see the nail marks in His hands. I have to put my finger where the nails were. If I can put my hand into His side, then I’ll believe you.”
Eight days later, Jesus visited the disciples again. This time Thomas was with them. Jesus walked right through the locked doors. “Peace be with you,” He said. Then He said, “Thomas, come here with your finger and see My hands. Touch the wounds in My hand. Put your hand into My side. Stop doubting now and believe.”

Thomas felt very ashamed for not believing. He hung his head, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus answered him, “Is it because you have seen Me, that you now believe? There will be many who do not see and are still willing to believe. Those people are special to Me.”

Some people requiring evidence to see and to believe, others do not require those evidence. But since we can not prove it or disprove it, it´s always will be a matter of faith and believe. Hope you get the point.

Peace

reply to post by Seed76


It's is NOT a case of who is right and who is wrong, it's the sharing of opinion.

And the atheist/agnostic point out that the Theist cannot know the origins of the universe, if he could reveal it, it would be scientific and evident.

We are humble enough to admit "we don't know" "and we're not willing to pressume either"

What do Theists say "Praise God, or forever burn in Hell", if they don't say it, they are thinking it, and that is immoral. To truely believe in "their" God would to be believe this nonsense, that God would condemn someone to eternal torture? How is this moral?

Who is more humble? Who is more honest? Who is more scientific? Who is more courageous? Before you answer, blind faith IS NOT courageous.

I've made several valid points here, I'm not claiming to know more than you, I'm not being arrogant.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

I've made several valid points here, I'm not claiming to know more than you, I'm not being arrogant.

Neither am I arrogant. I have also made a valid point here. It´s a matter of faith and believe.

Peace

reply to post by Seed76


I comepletely understand that it's "faith" and "belief". Thanks for participating

Peace