23 CIA agents recieve additional sentences in Italia on kidnapping charges or aka "extraordinary re

23 CIA agents recieve additional sentences in Italia on kidnapping charges or aka "extraordinary rendition".

www.msnbc.msn.com

The Americans and two Italians were convicted last year of involvement in the kidnapping of Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr, also known as Abu Omar, from a Milan street on Feb. 17, 2003 — the first convictions anywhere in the world against people involved in the CIA's practice of abducting terror suspects and transferring them to third countries where torture was permitted.

(visit the link for the full news article)

This is a huge fiasco, no amount of media black outs will bury these sort of events. Down the road years from now the history books may be looking back at this subject matter as akin to WWII war crimes.

How can a people attempt to learn from the past, in order to prevent history from repeating, when they are ignorant either due to control factors or through self ignorance?

Until we can do so as individuals, it will be impossible to do so as a majority. We must know our self and being willing to help ones self before doing such for another.



www.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by ADVISOR


Shouldn't their superiors also be held accountable?

Imagine a similar scenario.

A Gang, with a leader, the leader tells the Gang members to kidnap so on and so forth. The Gang members take actions and kidnap so on and so forth, but get caught.

Now

Is the leader of the Gang also responsible?

The same goes for this situation?

How much responsibility does the CIA top ranking members hold, how far does it go? Does it reach US government? Or are we to avoid US government because there is apparently absolutely no undoubtedly any connection between the CIA and US government.

The above being said, I believe this is to punish CIA members who have failed on their duty.

This is all being done with the help of US, to discipline CIA, in order for them to become more secretive and not get detected, then prosecuted.

There is not justice in cutting the toe nails of CIA, that won't stop its illegal activities, nor will it change anything.

Now if they could also arrest their bosses who gave them those orders, we'd be in some business. Good post. thank you.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
This is a huge fiasco, no amount of media black outs will bury these sort of events. Down the road years from now the history books may be looking back at this subject matter as akin to WWII war crimes.

The line...In their original sentence, the judges noted that the Americans had just been following orders. caught my attention...gee, how'd that work at Nuremberg?

And how many Japanese were hanged for waterboarding?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

This was in 2003.

The height of paranoia over the threat of more Al Qaeda attacks.... Doesn't justify this but explains the poor planning and sloppy handling in this case. CIA and other agencies so paranoid that they were seeking to abduct and torture people to find information.... It actually highlights the complete failure of the CIA.

They still seem to be chasing the Al Qaeda boogie man, and have failed to explore the possibility that it is a fabrication of the true allied enemies of the west. A proxy they will use for devastating attacks in the future and leave the US and these agencies again, chasing the same boogie man.

reply to post by oozyism


It depends on Italian law actually. Here in the States we have laws that cover conspiracy (murder, atempted, etc etc). I am not sure if Italy has any type of Conspiracy laws that would cover this.

I would guess that since the Italian courts appeared to try the specific people involved in the act itself, and not planning it, that the proescutor did not, or could not because of italian law, go after the bosses.

The intresting part is the Italians who were acquitted. This operation was not done uniltareally by the CIA. The CIA worked in conjunction with Italain intelligence services to do this, and had their cooperation and support.

reply to post by ADVISOR


ats = big brother + room 101

reply to post by oozyism


As far as gang prosecution goes, the entire gang is responsible for the gangs activities. So for example, if one member gets caught for gang related activities of a criminal nature, they will be prosecuted for all the crimes of said gang. Even if they were not individually involved in other cases, they are charged due to affiliation.

Groups of members will be prosecuted as same, for all of the crimes they would be tried individually.
Or so previous cases have shown, exceptions of course are known.

Obviously group representatives, or members of said group of higher standing ought to be punished to the fullest extent, while new and possibly rehabilitatable individuals may be assigned lighter sentencing, pending their crimes committed. Those details will vary of course, and various.

Currently, as to the topic and issues of CIA leaders being held accountable for operations, it is important to remember the field agents either received orders from higher with parameters for operations, or they may have had liberty to conduct private operations, pending approval, or not in certain cases.

Not matter what the case may be, witch hunts are ever good or conductive, and still leaves a bad residue when gone bad. So let us all remember to remain open minded and co operative in our collaboration towards mutual discussion.

A potential research project activity would be interesting to see, pertaining to extra-ordinary rendition.
U2U after reading the topped threads of the research forum, if interested.

There is going to be a tragic hailstorm of media madness once this case goes mainstream, hope the habit of prosecuting covert agents doesn't become habit, or a new paradigm of standards and activities will be inevitable.

reply to post by ADVISOR


"one guy ruins it for the rest of everybody"

*needs revision*

We Are All One, Remember? 5, anyone? 23?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Right, and it is that sort of forcefully coerced info that leads to African "yellow cake" allegations...

Wow, another title that is completely misleading. They are not being held in Italian custody. If you read the article...

They were never in Italian custody and were tried and convicted in absentia but risk arrest if they travel to Europe.

reply to post by ADVISOR


Left = You Love It or Leave It = Yellow

as in, chicken?

reply to post by Xcathdra


Very good point on the law aspect, so I did a quick search and found;
Constitution, Government & Legislation:
The Italian judicial system

Which may prove useful in knowing possible out comes.

reply to post by ADVISOR


Costa Rica?

Thanks. I'm waiting for the snow. And, for the [G]Library to KNoE sis

reply to post by firepilot


Held is not the issue, court activity is, as from the news article linked;

ROME — An Italian appeals court on Wednesday increased the sentences against 23 Americans convicted in the kidnapping of an Egyptian terror suspect who was part of the CIA's extraordinary renditions program. In upholding the convictions, the court added one year to the eight-year term handed down to former Milan CIA station chief Robert Seldon Lady and two years to the five-year terms given to 22 other Americans convicted along with him, defense lawyers said.

As your post quotes from the same article, I defer to your comment and agree my title required adjustment.

How ever how is it the charges were added on if they were not held?
How do such court systems apply to prosecutions elsewhere?

I propose we change the name of the CIA to, Collective Idiot Agency

Can I get a 2nd on that !!

reply to post by FutureThinker


What exactly do you imagine would be the upswing to the Loss of (Forgetfulness) tje CIA?

Are You In Conflict?

Originally posted by ADVISOR

Right, and it is that sort of forcefully coerced info that leads to African "yellow cake" allegations...

Yeah, the same agency that helped create the Iraqi WMD lies and lookie what that got us!

They've been hunting the wrong animals all along. Or were being led in the wrong directions, easily baited and distracted.

The only thing the CIA is good at is large scale corruption schemes, funding and orchestrating proxy wars, inciting protests and violence to initiate revolts for political agendas or regime change in foreign countries considered "hostile" and drug wars and profiting from the drug trade.

They should stay with what they do best, obviously they have completely failed at the real Al Qaeda (proxy) threat.

The void of true home land security will be exposed again, with much more dramatic results.

Maybe this time they can find justification to invade another Muslim nation, perhaps Pakistan?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade



Conflict Resolution = 1984 = Big Brother