ATS Members Are Political Cowards?

I posted a thread yesterday which simply directed people to the Avaaz website who are trying to collect a million signatures by the end of the week. Although inspired by the events that have unfolded following release of the diplomatic leaks by Wikipedia, the petition is a demand for freedom of expression. It reads;

“We call on you to stop the crackdown on WikiLeaks and its partners immediately. We urge you to respect democratic principles and laws of freedom of expression and freedom of the press. If WikiLeaks and the journalists it works with have violated any laws they should be pursued in the courts with due process. They should not be subjected to an extra-judicial campaign of intimidation.”

I posted the thread, with the link, and went to bed. I have risen this morning to see that I have received replies along the lines of,

‘Id be wary of putting my name on anything related to this if I were a wise man. There is evidence to suggest that wikileaks is CIA.’ [sic]

And, ‘No, but the CIA can put you on lists if you are seen hanging out with known 'terrorists' or otherwise. You want to remain anonymous whenever possible to prevent them from knowing your views personally.’

Correct me if I’m wrong but ATS is a site dedicated to propaganda busting and exposing lies in the media, political sidewinders etc.

In response to these posts, and another cpl, I wrote that having been heavily involved in the organising of the anti-Iraq invasion demos – when we met in town halls, that MI5 were present, with rather large zoom lenses taking pictures of every individual in the hall. (There weren’t many people there). It was obviously an intimidation tactic. However, WE WERE RIGHT – THEY WERE WRONG – so we simply smiled for the cameras.

These meetings were being held in Glasgow – the demo was being organised for February 15th 2003 – because Tony Blair was in the city that day for the Scottish Labour Party conference. That demo turned into the biggest co-ordinated worldwide demonstration the world has ever seen. It started with half a dozen people....in a European backwater.

Having achieved the numbers that we did there was a sense of despair that the invasion went ahead as if no-one had said a word. I wrote to Noam Chomsky expressing this sense of despair – he replied telling me ‘imagine how bad it would have been if no-one had marched’, ‘if they thought no-one was watching them.’

In the UK if you complain about a car park being built on your doorstep MI5 will open a file on you. Why? Because you have demonstrated that you are willing to raise your voice – that you may be able to organise friends and neighbours etc.

Does that mean you shouldn’t complain about anything?

What the posts to my petition link thread have demonstrated to me is that there are members on here who will ‘talk the talk’, but even at the most basic level they will not, ‘walk the walk’. I see that as cowardly – and dangerous to democracy.

If there is a fear of being put on databases that is preventing people from signing a petition demanding ‘freedom of expression’ don’t these members realise that, given my car park example above, that participating in a forum like ATS is far more likely to have a name added to a database than signing a global petition ever would. It doesn’t matter about nicknames etc...They’ll just use your IP address.

There are some fantastic discussions on ATS and the forum is a fantastic disseminator of otherwise unreported news items – it will be rendered impotent if the participants are frightened to be heard in the real world.

reply to post by christina-66


The government has done a good job of scaring the sheeple and this is the result: many political cowards too afraid of standing up when it needs to be done. A little less talk and a lot more action (Toby Keith) needs to happen. S & F

reply to post by mikelee


It looks like they've done a better job than they could ever have dared hope. I can't believe how people have fallen far the scare tactics. WE ARE MANY - THEY ARE FEW. I am not pro-violence - not for anything. We have been victim of serious media censorship and manipulation for years now.

Throughout the labour years in the UK there was a seriously restricted playlist on the music radio stations. None of that love and peace nonsense was to be played. (Especially none of the anti-Vietnam music that emanated from the states.) Music played on the radio has been so vacuous in its subject matter, love', 'lack of love', 'I'm so cool’. That was quite deliberate and it was strange that there was no contemporary, social commentary music being played while we were witnessing some of the worst atrocities our governments have ever committed.

Abbie Hoffman, anti-Vietnam activist (now deceased) was a master at 'political theatre'. He was a genius at capturing the media's attention and the hearts of the people - without resorting to violence. In the movie about his life 'Steal This Movie' (named after his book 'Steal This Book' - that no book seller would stock cos the customers followed the instructions on the cover lol) it shows how the CIA did infiltrate his book - to instigate violence at their demos' It is a must see for all young demonstrators now - I'm assuming there will be many more of them in the face of the cut backs we're all being inflicted with.

If people want to protest they MUST use their heads and get tactical - not violent. That is simply playing into the hands of the state.

STEAL THIS MOVIE

My answer: Yes, many are. I've seen this kind of response again and again on ATS. Many of the same people get really upset about the possibility of the internet being 'shut down', but what is the point of an internet which can't be used to disseminate truth? It becomes one more propaganda tool in the hands of the criminal mafia regime.

Indeed, the scaremongering really does work - and that's why they keep using it.

+1.
I dont know why so many people, even after they hear all the governments have been up to (they are the real criminals), and do not stand up to them!!
Talk ablout blowing your trumpet and then when they think they've been heard, hide away!
Take no notice of the people 'warning you', they are cowards indeed.
A lot of them like to pretend they are only posting views on the internet and that somehow the comments are being read by mere browsers.

Good job on getting all the numbers and the support you are receiving, i will be supporting you.

Originally posted by wcitizen
My answer: Yes, many are. I've seen this kind of response again and again on ATS. Many of the same people get really upset about the possibility of the internet being 'shut down', but what is the point of an internet which can't be used to disseminate truth? It becomes one more propaganda tool in the hands of the criminal mafia regime.

Indeed, the scaremongering really does work - and that's why they keep using it.

Wow!! Have these people never heard of a self fulfilling prophecy'. TPTB won't have to do anything at all if people are prepared to build their own prisons. It is extremely sad. The streets round about me are so quiet of an evening - they've terrorized the people into thinking that every other person's a head banger. When you actually do get out there - in reality they're actually rather nice people - not monsters.

I have also put up several action threads, and so has AdAbsurdum.

People are so worried that some spook service agent is going to come kill them in their sleep it's nearly laughable if it wasn't so sad. We can't say anything bad about our government, that would be acting different than the TV tells us to act.

Not every one is like that. I've already signed several petitions and I actively speak out about my government.

YOU HEAR ME OBAMA, PELOSI, GEITNER, CIA, FBI, CONGRESS, AND SENATE:

SCREW YOU ALL. WE WANT OUR DAMN COUNTRY BACK.

reply to post by mikelee


It's not as simple as "the sheeple are afraid to act" because if that were true, ATS would probably be more radical in terms of changing the system instead of being a place where we can get our anger out and say "this is what I would do if I could get my hands on the government" or denounce entire populations as "sheeple".

The problem is that organizations like the FBI, CIA, and governments around the world have too much power. They know how to control and restrain a protest or any actions that people do or may want to do. The Internet is the worst place to change things because there IS no privacy. ATSers used the term "sheeple" all the time but one or few can't change history anymore. There are no more Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. because of the institution called the media. The media serves the government and does whatever is necessary to quell civil unrest. Sure, there are protests in the U.K. over tuitions and there were protests in France and so on but until those protests can become large enough to create a worldwide ripple effects - they are futile. I still find it odd that Charles and Camilla would be driven through a protest, putting themselves in harm's way. In fact, Charles and Camilla became the main focal point of the protest instead of the rising tuition. Ha, isn't it amazing how governments can trivialize anything? "Oh no, don't think about U.K. students expressing their dissatisfaction of tuition costs, think about royal celebrities Charles and Camilla. They were ALMOST hurt." That's how the news here in the U.S. were presented. It started with the students then did a 180 and focused on the royal idiots.

I hate to say it but I am with people who won't sign your petition because the FACT is that Wikileaks is still a gray area. Half the world thinks it's serving the people and causing a change while the other half is suspicious of it and think Wikileaks is something done up by the CIA or Mossad. FACT is that if the heartless CIA wanted Julian and Wikileaks supporters dead, they'd do it but they aren't. Is that not suspicious to you? Petitions are ineffective anyway without the help of the media. I think that's the importance of the media: when the media is truly critical and watchful of the government, then you the people have power and the government will fear you. However, if the media is on the side of the government, then you have no power.


I think people both "sheeple" and so called "awaken" are merely going with the tides. We argue and argue about things yet never come to a conclusion thus no unity.

reply to post by DevilJin


I understand completely what you say. The concern is not so much that people won't put their name on the petition. It’s their reasoning and fear of being put on a database – SO WHAT!! As I have mentioned I was among the early organizers of a demo that made the Guinness Book of Records - and that demo changed policy not one iota.

That doesn't mean we stop making our voices heard tho'. We do have the net...protesting here is useless in itself, but it’s a great tool for organizing protest. Violent protest is NOT the answer it simply plays into the hands of those who want to exert greater control. As I've also stated - people have to get 'tactical' - and a bit savvier on what attracts the media's attention.

The media do not report on peaceful demo's that doesn't mean they have to become violent to attract their attention. During the anti-Iraq protests there were plenty of people involved who worked for the government. They undertook to become the biggest incompetents they could become without getting fired. (Sometimes it’s better to be in than out - then at least you know what's really going on).

reply to post by christina-66

The media do not report on peaceful demo's that doesn't mean they have to become violent to attract their attention.

Even with the attention gained through violent protest the media focus on reporting the violence in order to sweep the real issue under the carpet. I have been appalled at the media coverage of the student protests. It has really opened my eyes.

Fear is a pretty powerful force. I got really spooked after one very strange phone call while on an email campaign about 9/11. It was a wrong number and nothing threating said, but the feeling of being watched from a higher power can be very threating. With stories of what happens to terrorist plastered all over the media it is a big step for someone to take to confront and expose what is really going on. How many people have lost their jobs, received threats and even been killed for the truth? Heaps. I have no problems in dieing for our freedom, but the thought of getting tortured for it sux.

Now, stuff it. I am too tired of living others peoples lies. While reality is harsh, it is all we really have. If the CIA or some other dark mob want to pick me up to talk about it, I have a few words for them.

reply to post by christina-66


It's certainly full of people who want a violent revolution but would probably never get out of their chairs long enough to do something, unless it was making a sandwich.

I just have to laugh at the way this site is run at times.

reply to post by shakennotstirred


Yes...it has been appalling, but we haven't seen anything yet. The cuts have been announced but they haven't been implemented. If people believe that violent protest is the answer they are soo wrong. I agree with you that it means the real issues aren't reported on - only the violence. That's why I advocate people use their heads and not their fists to fight what's happening here.

We are being asked to pay the consequences of banking criminals who, in britain, remain unscathed, and rich. Many of them should be under police investigation and yet they are not. At least in the US there are more than 600 under investigation for the damage they've caused.

There should be no fear here - again - WE ARE RIGHT - THEY ARE WRONG.

Originally posted by kwakakev
Fear is a pretty powerful force. I got really spooked after one very strange phone call while on an email campaign about 9/11. It was a wrong number and nothing threating said, but the feeling of being watched from a higher power can be very threating. With stories of what happens to terrorist plastered all over the media it is a big step for someone to take to confront and expose what is really going on. How many people have lost their jobs, received threats and even been killed for the truth? Heaps. I have no problems in dieing for our freedom, but the thought of getting tortured for it sux.

Now, stuff it. I am too tired of living others peoples lies. While reality is harsh, it is all we really have. If the CIA or some other dark mob want to pick me up to talk about it, I have a few words for them.

I agree, but then 'There is nothing to fear but fear itself.'

During the anti-Iraq campaign a car sat outside my house for 3 months watching as I drove my son to school!! My son and I got into the habit of staring directly at the guy as we passed and after a cpl of days it looked as though he's gone. Then my son noticed him in another side street about a hundred metres up the street. We did not care - we don't do anything 'wrong'.

In addition I started getting weird calls too - a couple of times I picked up the phone and two guys are having a conversation - not even a dialling tone. One of them said 'pass' something over - so it was obvious they weren't on the phone but in the same room, or whatever, as each other. Again we did not care. WE WERE RIGHT - THEY WERE WRONG.

If we do not fight for what is right, using our heads, then we're going to leave a pretty sick society for our children - and live one ourselves. I am not prepared to accept that as being inevitable.

We all know that 1984, and Brave New World were warning and not the 'how to' guides they are presently being used for. One day I met a science fiction writer and I said, 'I've wanted to talk to you guys.' 'I have this theory that scientists have NO imagination and they use sci-fi writers as inspiration.' 'Could you please start writing some HAPPY endings in your books.'

He laughed and told me that the two professions do indeed work in tandem (just as Orwell/Blair and Huxley did); that the writers gain their 'inspiration' from the latest possibilities being discovered by the scientists. The future world does not have to be the nightmare that is being painted for us....we can have a happy and successful future. In fact it would be more difficult not to have that - if people do not allow themselves to accept the 'myth' of an inevitably terrible future that simply serves those in authority TODAY.

Originally posted by DevilJin

The fact that WL remains in a 'grey area' for many is actually beside the point. The point is free speech. I am starting to believe that 'conspiracy theories' can become a refuge into which one can go to avoid having to take any action which one perceives as 'risky'. Much easier to sit on the fence and claim this or that might be an NWO/CIA trap because that avoids the need to take personal responsibility for acting or not acting. Sure, discernment is necessary - but if things are to change, so is decisive action.

reply to post by wcitizen



100% agree with your post. A mentality breeds that says 'this is all too big, too much for little old me to make a difference.' That's an unrealistic viewpoint....one that is relied upon.

reply to post by wcitizen


If Wikileaks were to stop being the center of attention - would the crowd that so upheld the principle Wikileaks personified - free speech - still continue what Wikileaks started? NO!!!! Maybe small websites here and there but the whole of the population will find something new to believe in. THAT is my point - I think we are being led to believe in Wikileaks. News sources would move on to something else. No one would scrutinize the media for its possible political bias, censoring, or neglect of stories the world NEEDS to hear. It is not "easier to sit on the fence" because all I ask is for facts. For YOU, it is easier to run with Wikileaks as is it is easier for people to deny Wikileaks as genuine. You chose one side and ran with it and your opposition has done the same. There is no middle ground which is EXACTLY how people are divided in many debates. No one is going on facts. They are going on belief, propaganda, opinions, and what's trendy.

Today Wikileaks, tomorrow Israel is ready to strike Iran's nuclear facilities.

Well this is a phenomena known as Internet false heroes, hiding behind keyboards and showing in a boards a false courage ,but in reality they are selfish cowards frighting for their miserable lives as modern slaves.

reply to post by wcitizen

I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it makes sense.

I for one am raising the volume of my dissatisfaction with the way things are going and conspiracy theories have definitely played a part in that.

However I understand the belief that we as individuals are small and TPTB are big and powerful but in reality that is an illusion. It takes one person to have an idea and if that idea is allowed to grow in the minds of other people and spread then it can change the world. I am not sure I expressed my sentiment brilliantly so I'll quote from Inception

What is the most resilient parasite? Bacteria? A virus? An intestinal worm? An idea. Resilient... highly contagious. Once an idea has taken hold of the brain it's almost impossible to eradicate. An idea that is fully formed - fully understood - that sticks; right in there somewhere.

I agree with the OP to a point.

I am paying attention to the Wikileaks issues and I support what they are doing, but not everyone may agree with that.

Why would someone sign the petition if they disagree with the premise? Are they then cowards for standing up for their beliefs that differ from yours?

Before you simply claim that ATS is full of cowards, realize that what you and I may find important is not the same to others. In the end, I don't think this has anything to do with being afraid of Big Brother watching, because they already are, but it's about the issue itself and whether people are willing to stick their neck out for an issue that really just came to the lime light.