Question about Old Test. v/s New Test. God

Originally posted by balrathamir

This is quite simple for me to understand. Ever had a parent give you an order, or ask you to do something that seemed only to get you to question it? When we question something we really start to understand what's going on rather than blindly follow along.

As to why conflicts in Orders, do not kill.... unless I tell you to? It is better for a single life to end than for an entire nation to dwindle in unbelief. The needs of the many out way the needs of a few.

This isn't the concept that I'm wondering about. This is a humanistic explanation for the behavior. This type of behavior doesn't really jive with the idea that I'm going to ask you to commit what would be absolutely heinous acts under any other circumstances.

And when you do these acts, they will haunt you for the rest of your life... but you still must see all human life as precious?

In the OT, it seems that God is ONLY valuing Israelite life - sometimes.... But in the NT - Jew and Gentile are as one...

Why in OT are non-Israelite people not worth human consideration, but in NT suddenly they are?

In the NT we're taught that God desires a very personal relationship with us. That God knows everything about us (i.e. the number of hairs on your head). He desires that there be now Jew or Gentile, no man or woman. God desires that we all share a close and loving relationship with God through His son.

In the OT - only the Israelite was considered precious, and only then if God didn't need to pour some wrath out. He commanded that Israel commit wholesale slaughter, and then would turn around and will other nations to slaughter Israel.

Legalism v/s Grace makes perfect sense. Sacrafice v/s Faith makes perfect sense. But this one makes NO sense.

Same God. No difference.

Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments and he quoted the OT; Love the Lord your God, and Love your neighbor. key word 'love'.
when tempted Jesus quoted the OT ('man shall not live by bread alone').
the semi-official Israel national anthem was 'Give thanks to the Lord, His mercy endures forever'. key word, Mercy.
Israel was commanded to love and be good to the 'stranger' (alien) and take care of the widow and orphan.
the key feature of the temple was the mercy seat (not the judgment seat).

in the NT we see the final wrath of God in which 1/3 of humanity (refusing to repent) dies.
How's this for absolutism? Jesus says 'I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man comes to the Father except through me.'

Jesus is frequently prophesied about in the OT

www.biblestudy.org...

the New Testament records and explains a new covenant between God and man, but God Himself did/does not change.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by v01i0
It seems that it because Yahweh was morally beaten by Job.

At least that is what C.G. Jung effectively pointed out. You might wanna read Jung's "Answer to Job".

Dont know about that. God called Job a know it all and set him back on his ass a bit.

v01i0 said "morally" beaten, not beaten by raw power.

Which is the whole point made in the book. It really is a great book; I second the recommendation except I already recommended it in this thread.

I wasnt talking about raw power. He and Job had a discussion, Job got a bit to self justifing and God broke his balls about it....morally. This was all after the testing and trials when God showed up and wanted Job to give an account for himself. One would think a man just having gone through all that without cursing God wouldnt have to give account for much.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Seed76

 

Friend, I have read through and studied the Bible for many years, and I still cannot fully understand it, neither can you. How can anyone understand the Book of Isaiah?, most likely written by 8 different personalities. With all of the different Gods in the Bible, how do you know which one is the real one?

Isaiah may have had what looks like personality disorder. Several of the prophets looked like they had some sort of PTSD or some other form of trama compensation.

reply to post by autowrench

Friend, I have read through and studied the Bible for many years, and I still cannot fully understand it, neither can you. How can anyone understand the Book of Isaiah?, most likely written by 8 different personalities. With all of the different Gods in the Bible, how do you know which one is the real one?

Friend i do not know what Bible or Bibles have you studied, but i studied only 1 bible. (The Old Greek LXX, and Greek NT.). And i can say that i perfectly understand it, since i am Greek. But if you have any questions about the Book of Isaiah, then may i suggest to ask a Scholar or a Theologian. I am doing it all the time when i have questions. But since you asked about the Book of Isaiah, the answer to your question is at the beginning.

1 The vision which Esaias the son of Amos saw, which
he saw against Juda, and against Jerusalem, in the reign of
Ozias, and Joatham, and Achaz, and Ezekias, who reigned
over Judea. Greek LXX

That´s why i have written at my previous post "The Scriptures are understood to contain historical fact, poetry, idiom, metaphor, simile, moral fable, parable, prophecy, and wisdom literature. "

And the evidence of this can be found...where? Show me records, show me proof. A God is not a Man, and a Man is not a God.

Friend, if you do not believe, then it´s fine. I respect that, and is your decision. But for my part i have no doubt at all of what i have stated on my previous post,and i am trying to follow the teachings of Christ.

Oh, pardon me, I forgot about the FEAR FACTOR of Christianity. Every research the origin of Hell, friend? It began a a trash heap outside of the walls of Jerusalem, the poor who could not afford a tomb just threw their dead on the pile, which was kept burning because of disease.So that must be where all the sinners will go. also, another thing. The dimensions of Heaven are recorded in the Bible, true? Figure it up, it was full a very long time ago.

What fear factor is that???? Please feel free to explain to me that. To your first question, you are referring to Gehenna? if so yes that´s true. It´s a reference to the Trash heap.

But since you are referring to the Eschatology, as an Orthodox Christian I believe that when a person dies the soul is temporarily separated from the body. Though it may linger for a short period on Earth, it is ultimately escorted either to paradise (Abraham's bosom) or the darkness of Hades, following the Temporary Judgment. The soul’s experience of either of these states is only a “foretaste”—being experienced only by the soul—until the Final Judgment, when the soul and body will be reunited. We also believe that the state of the soul in Hades can be affected by the love and prayers of the righteous up until the Last Judgment.

On the Final Judgment

1.All souls will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

2.All souls will fully experience their spiritual state.

3. Having been perfected, the human race will forever progress towards a deeper and fuller love of God, which equates with eternal happiness.

4. Hell, though often described in metaphor as punishment inflicted by God, is in reality the soul's rejection of God's infinite love which is offered freely and abundantly to everyone.

The eternal hell fire is reserved for the Satan and his followers. Simply means that the "Eternal Hell Fire" is utterly destruction. No Torment. You just simply cease to exist.


Peace

Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by gncnew

 

I am not a Theologian or a scholar, but i will give it a try. This is my point of view, based on my faith as a Greek Orthodox Christian.

First you have to understand the Bible. The Bible reveals God's will, the relationship between the Israelites and God, the wonders of Christ and the early history of the Church. The Scriptures are understood to contain historical fact, poetry, idiom, metaphor, simile, moral fable, parable, prophecy, and wisdom literature.

In the OT we see a fearful and wrathful God because, at some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice, to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as “the fall of man” and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. You can clearly see it throughout the OT. From Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, even with God´s chosen people the Israelites.

The "Original Sin" is this adoption of evil into human nature. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind’s ultimate dilemma.

In the NT we see the solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. That effect was Christ Jesus which He was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God’s participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of hell.( As i reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction.") The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve.

So that is the reason, why you see a fearful and wrathful God in the OT, and a Loving God throughout NT.

Peace

Best answer yet... seriously. Thanks. I knew at some point we'd get someone that would try to answer the question instead of take an opportunity of true vulnerability to jab their personal agenda into things.

You know - it makes sense from the perspective that Christ is in us, thus God can change the nature of humanity.

reply to post by gncnew


Thanks mate. Glad i could contribute. Normally i am avoiding those kinds of discussions, since it always ends up with who is right and who is wrong. Basically it always ending , bashing each others beliefs. Quite sad actually, to be honest.

Peace

reply to post by gncnew


God in the O.T. may seem more harsh on sin because He is showing us what it's like to be under His perfect and holy law, where pretty much every sin is punishable by death or requires a sacrifice. God takes sin VERY VERY seriously so if the Jews did not keep the law he would punish them in hopes that they would repent.


God in the N.T. who is the same God in the O.T., sends his son to die for us so we would not have to be under the law anymore. Now we are under Grace. God still takes sin just as seriously as he did before but. the difference is, Jesus bore the punishment of our sins, and we got off scott-free. That's why it 'seems' like he's less 'harsh' in the NT, but the reality is he hates it just as much as he always did.


btw im not trying to jab my 'agenda' down your throat or anything...I really believe this is the answer to your question...sry if it seems like I am

Originally posted by freedish
God in the O.T. may seem more harsh on sin because He is showing us what it's like to be under His perfect and holy law, where pretty much every sin is punishable by death or requires a sacrifice. God takes sin VERY VERY seriously so if the Jews did not keep the law he would punish them in hopes that they would repent.

God in the N.T. who is the same God in the O.T., sends his son to die for us so we would not have to be under the law anymore. Now we are under Grace. God still takes sin just as seriously as he did before but. the difference is, Jesus bore the punishment of our sins, and we got off scott-free. That's why it 'seems' like he's less 'harsh' in the NT, but the reality is he hates it just as much as he always did.

I've seen Christians put it this way many times.

What I find interesting is that it basically means if (this) God exists, he is a dynamic God. He evolves. At some point he said, "Maybe I've been a bit hard on these creatures of mine." and changed his tune.

But what would prompt this? Maybe he is not as omniscient as the traditional notion of God implies. Perhaps, as some spiritualists have asserted, God's creatures, including Man, are his "eyes and ears", so-to-speak. Perhaps the mournful cries (in prayer) of his creatures finally got so unbearable that God realized he needed to incarnate in a man, to feel the pain of being human firsthand.

It makes me wonder (speculatively, as I'm not committed in belief to any of this), what's the next stage in God's evolution?

What I find interesting is that it basically means if (this) God exists, he is a dynamic God. He evolves. At some point he said, "Maybe I've been a bit hard on these creatures of mine." and changed his tune.

But what would prompt this? Maybe he is not as omniscient as the traditional notion of God implies. Perhaps, as some spiritualists have asserted, God's creatures, including Man, are his "eyes and ears", so-to-speak. Perhaps the mournful cries (in prayer) of his creatures finally got so unbearable that God realized he needed to incarnate in a man, to feel the pain of being human firsthand.

It makes me wonder (speculatively, as I'm not committed in belief to any of this), what's the next stage in God's evolution?

edit on 13-12-2010 by NewlyAwakened because: (no reason given)

God definitely has feelings like we do. But I doubt that he 'evolves' . Evolution requires there to be random mistakes throughout time, and he can't make mistakes because well one, he is perfect. And two, he is outside of 'time'...He created 'time' as we perceive it through our days.

Also Jesus & the Holy Spirit have always exist. If you look in Genesis 1:26 He says "Let us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...Genesis 1:26. 'Our' is referring to God as the trinity.

Originally posted by freedish
But I doubt that he 'evolves' . Evolution requires there to be random mistakes throughout time

Just a quick nitpick here. When I say God "evolves", I use that term in the loosest sense possible. Meaning, gradual change over time. Maybe God learns things and realizes things. Of course, you are also assuming his omnipotence (not quoted but in your post) which I do not necessarily subscribe to.

You seem to be confusing this with the theory of biological evolution by natural selection, which involves "mistakes" being weeded out. But the latter is really just details; the crux of evolution is simply gradual change. That's what the word means.

God wanted us to grow up, just like you wouldn't spank your kid when he's 45 years old.

second God chose to forgive us, through Christ's death, we are now in His grace and love and not in His anger and wrath.

Originally posted by NewlyAwakened

Originally posted by freedish
But I doubt that he 'evolves' . Evolution requires there to be random mistakes throughout time

Just a quick nitpick here. When I say God "evolves", I use that term in the loosest sense possible. Meaning, gradual change over time. Maybe God learns things and realizes things. Of course, you are also assuming his omnipotence (not quoted but in your post) which I do not necessarily subscribe to.

You seem to be confusing this with the theory of biological evolution by natural selection, which involves "mistakes" being weeded out. But the latter is really just details; the crux of evolution is simply gradual change. That's what the word means.

edit on 13-12-2010 by NewlyAwakened because: (no reason given)

Oh I understand now, sorry.

reply to post by gncnew


Sin was a punishment on the disobedient first man and woman alive. And it is a inheritable thing. After ages He promised to undo this but there needed to be sincerity in the man or woman who wanted to overcome.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by etherical waterwave
Pepsi78


To your question who God is I would like to say the one by whom all truth and justice is known, all knowledge, all wisdom and the one who is able to make miracles, the one whom is almighty!

edit on 2010/12/13 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)

Then what is god, is it a man the father ? is it the supernatural force ? or is mother nature?
You will get bored of how many galaxies are out there ?
I would go for the supernatural, god can't be a man.

edit on 13-12-2010 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

Un unbiasable greatness. Not a man, supernatural would be correct.

reply to post by Logarock



Did you read the part about there are whom aren't capable of understanding the scripture and whom need others to clarify. I don't want to flame.

reply to post by gncnew


To get to the answer of you question you are going to have to understand the history and times the respective books are written in.

This is big in theological discussions. At least you are willing to ask youself these questions. This is in stark contrast to many fundamental religious people, who simply accep and believe things they are told without any sort of objective thinking. Then the next step in that deprived thought process is to ignorantly pass on things of which they do not understand.

For your quest in finding the truth I give my respects.

Im agnostic...good luck in your pursuit...

I think the thing is to look forward and accept God now as he is.

reply to post by gncnew


Hey bro. It's great that you are looking into all of this stuff and thinking outside of the box, however, I would like to pose a question to you that maybe will help you on your journey.

Did you ever try to understand the Divine Spirit (God as you call it), without the use of religious doctrines?

Try it out. Actually sit down and contemplate on God as the creator of man (no strings attached) and not as some deity that needs worship (i.e. the OT & NT bible version). I mean for all we know the Bible could be BS (which I think majority if not all is, because it consists of stolen material from other civilizations).

Why do humans of today even bother with this book? I mean yes it's good to get you thinking more spiritually but who made it the authority for humanity? Do some more research and try to find out God for yourself, there are many ways to do this.

Anyway I would be interested in what you find when you try to figure out God yourself without believing in what some book written over 2,000 years ago says.

I think it's time for humanity to move on and make our own path and redefine our relationship with God without the aid of the “word”, which we can’t even confirm if it’s true (and I don’t want to hear the whole “have faith” speech – which is identical to the “national security” card that the US uses so it doesn’t have to reveal the truth and commit hideous crimes (i.e. OT God), for our “protection”). That’s a whole nuther topic…

God is simple. Truth is simple. Religions make it hard to understand the Divine. Keep it simple…do it yourself…there are so many great people in the world that can help you on your path, utilize them.

This is just my two cents, I would be interested to see what others think.

Peace.

Originally posted by abandonednation
reply to post by gncnew

 

God is simple. Truth is simple. Religions make it hard to understand the Divine. Keep it simple…do it yourself…there are so many great people in the world that can help you on your path, utilize them.


Peace.

Emmm... I'm not so sure about this. Your premise is that religions have essentially muddied the waters and confused the issue of God. While there is definitely some merit to this, I think you're over simplifying God.

While his message is simple: "I love you", and is considered a very perfect Truth, that message is infinitely complex as well.

Akin to the simplicity of ... human body. We understand the human body, but it's infinitely complex. God exists on a different plane than humans do. God is eternal, God is omnipresent, God is, was, and will be.

These are things that we cannot grasp or comprehend - at least not fully. And in this I believe that is why we cannot grasp the "mind" of God.

The Bible is a collection of 66 books, written by God inspired men, to try and explain who and why God is. The book - in it's entirety - is an established and accepted compilation of writings that satisfactorily explain God's message to humanity.

It is not an end-all answer book to God. It is not the only source of answers concerning God. But it is a fantastic resource that Christians should use as the base reference.

The Bible is the human "owners manual". It explains the basics of being a child of God and living for Him. But when you want to dig into the actual specifics of certain things, the owners manual isn't always enough.

The Bible is all you need, but it's not always everything you may want.