Top Israel rabbis: Don't sell property to non-Jews

Can you imagine the roar of jewish folk arround the world. If here in the UK, the head of the church. Told his sheeple to stop selling any thing, never mind houses to jewish people. They would scream anti semites and nazis ect ect ect. Guess only the chosen ones can make statements like this and get away with it.
What a crazy world we live in.

reply to post by Pervius

Why do you?

And who the hell are you to question what I believe in?

Are the Israeli's really innocent?

They sure are! Don't care if others don't believe in the same thing because it is their right not to if they want!

the adl is actually saying this is discrimination against non-jews. I made a thread of it here.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just like some parts of the UK.

Where rich Muslims do not sell houses to non muslims in areas around Birmingham

Top Israel rabbis: Don't sell property to non-Jews,

Thats fine I will not sell any land to jews

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by Rosha

 

I wrote my response because you are FACTUALLY incorrect and ignorant of the FACTS.

There you go again rudely insulting me calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you!. I say you are factually incorrect!

Its called 'being a grown up

Well you could show it. Calling someone ignorant because I don't share the same opinion you. Hmmmmm Sounds really grown up!

what I suggested you go research *for yourself* and carefully evaluate it in light of this Jewish housing law situation

I have researched and obviously more than you. I stand by my claim that Israel is not an Apartheid style country. There is nothing you can say. You need to research yourself some & get better educated on the subject!

embrace that illusion

It ain't no illusion it's the truth. It;s your right to your opinion but it's the truth!

edit on 9-12-2010 by phatpackage because: (no reason given)

Phat.
I do believe what you are saying is the truth for you. It is not "the truth" however and while I have many facts and supportive evidences, even they are not "the truth". In this situation, the truth is known only and best to the hearts and minds of those most direcftly affected - the people of Palestine and their experience of life since coming under Israels rule.

Also, I did say quite clearly, and I even used Italics for empahsis in my first post when I wrote, " that statement is ignorant" - I didnt say YOU were... and in my second post I wrote: " you are ignorant of the facts"

Even taking those two the entirely wrong way from their ( my) intended meaning, it is still not an insult to be ignorant! In fact ignorance is a good place from which to begin. Ignorance itself only means: 'lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact - unaware', and I am myself ignorant to many facts every day but dont take it personally...Im not God.

It remains that your statement regarding apatheid only applying to South Africa was in error, you were ignorant/unaware of the fact that apartheid is a Universal crime under international law....you said so in your words.

Please call me on MY words, not YOUR interpretation of them.

The question of what Apartheid is and isnt as regards Israel remains open, yes, and it remains that the _fact_ is, international law, the geneva convention, several doozen other conventions on human rights and humanitarian law itself supports my position. Opinion supports yours as youve offered nothing else.

If you have some other view of apartheid, what it means, a defintion of the word that is different from the accepted international comprehension of it, then the onus is on YOU to share that with everybody and state your reasons why you feel we should condecend to your view above the accepted view, that is - if you want your view to be taken seriously...or opinion considered as more than a tantrum or vent.

You can go further and explain WHY Israel is not an apartheid state...show some examples? But to just poke your head in and say ' it just isnt' then run off without addressing even one of the points raised that wasnt about YOU, is just childish.

I do not know you well enough to call you personally "ignorant" though I can say ' defensive' and perhaps 'insecure' with some wisdom and reliability as your replies have been nothing but those...and that is simply a matter of observation not judgement. If you would only stop for one moment and consider the alternative though, that I am not out to get you or undermine you and just accept that any thought you have to the contrary of that intent which I know is different to your view as I am the holder of it, isnt coming from me but from within you, you might see differently.

On a personal level, nothing needs defending Phat because I am not attacking you personally.

I posted it before but here again is a link to what is commonly understood to be the "Crime of Apartheid"
en.wikipedia.org...



Please note the section "ICSPCA definition of the crime of apartheid"..especially points a b and c.

More...

Later in Article 7, the crime of apartheid is clearly defined as:

The 'crime of apartheid' means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.[15]



The ICC Definition of racial discrimination

According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,
the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[12]
---


So..with those being the FACTS as they stand concerning what Apartheid IS - and if you can get over yourself for a moment...can you please " educate me" and show me where Israel is NOT in contravention of this International Law?

Facts..links..documentation. Not opinion.


thanks

Rosha.

Originally posted by Haydn_17
Just like some parts of the UK.

Where rich Muslims do not sell houses to non muslims in areas around Birmingham

Now, owner right i one thing, but making a law about it is completely different thing.

Just try to imagine a law pass in any country no to sell to selected group of people based on faith, skin color or any other separatist means.

But what to except of the country that has build concentration camp kind of wall to 'protect' (read separate) its citizens???

I remember watching a report on this a couple of days ago.

One young Arab man who rents a home in the area affected gave a perfect view: These people haven't learned from their own history. They were persecuted, and instead of becoming better people, they choose to use it as a blueprint.

Double standards is the name of the Israeli and Zionist game. Of course this is outrageously racist, as is the fact that non-Jews cannot be part of the Israeli government, whilst any other country would be labelled racist for excluding Jews.

The two countries which seem to be doing the most to foster division, war and hatred in the world are US/Israel. Their agenda is not peace, it is war, chaos, division, and bloodshed - all in the name of massive appropriation of money and power, carried out under the stated aim of peace and the safety of nations. We need to stop believing in the lie that war brings about peace, that lies create harmony, that extortion creates goodwill and safety. I think it is fair to say that the powermongers have had enough time to more than prove that their theory is a lie, and that it never has and never will work.

This latest statement by the rabbis is just one more of a series of extremely racist, heinous outbursts by despots who give themselves the label of rabbis. These fanatical extremists seem barely able to control themselves of late, and in one outburst after another they expose the true agenda behind US/Israel/s murderous policies. It is so extreme that even Netanyahu has felt obliged to criticize it - not because he doesn't agree with it, but because one of the policies of these gutter rats is not to say things which would get Jews a bad name, as is stated in the despotic Talmud which is their 'bible'. The world will be deceived by his statement, yes, for a while, until the next batch of Israeli horrors hits the newswires.

99.9% of the people of the world would live in peace, were it not for the same group of psychotic fanaticists, with tentacles all across the globe, constantly using the proceeds of their crimes to continue further stirring the cauldron of bloodshed, hatred and division.

The more of us that can see through the lies and the heinous sham, and say no, the quicker there power will reduce.

It is possible that certain entities who are participating in this thread will post back with a very predictable reply I want to state now that I will not be replying to their posts. They know who they are.

Some time ago, a video was released of an Israeli ex-politician. She exposed the fact that 'antI-semitism' and 'holocaust' are tricks they use whenver anyone criticizes Israel. I and others have posted that video in threads where accusations of anti-semitism are rife. Since then, far fewer accusations of that kind are spewed into threads discussing Israel and/or Zionists.

The tactic is still used, but to a much lesser extent. I am observing another one emerging - that of asserting the obviously false, the obviously racist and the obviously criminal as true, justifiable and desired. This is a tactic not only used by the shills on here, but it's also a favoured tactic of the Israeli government itself. The similarity is very obvious.

Shills are appeariing on every thread about Israel/Zionists, using this newer tactic, with the same aim. Derailing the thread, winding people up and creating division and hatred. I won't be wasting my time replying to them.

To them I say, feel free to attack and insult and attempt to humiliate me, it will make no difference at all. I have not the slightest interest in your thoughts or your opinions.

My interest and my heart are with the 99.9% of my brothers and sisters in this world who only want to live in peace.

Israel checking if rabbis broke law with edict

I found this section particulary important for this thread.

The edict has been condemned by a wide spectrum in Israel. Some call it racist. It reflects growing tensions between Israel's Jews and minority Arabs, one-fifth of the population.

reply to post by Rosha

It is not "the truth" however and while I have many facts and supportive evidences, even they are not "the truth". In this situation, the truth is known only and best to the hearts and minds of those most direcftly affected - the people of Palestine and their experience of life since coming under Israels rule.

1) It is still the truth

2) So by your assessment only the people of Palestine know? The israeli people don't know & have no right to input? .... HmmI

'lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact - unaware'

You are accusing me of lacking the facts well in this case it is you who is misformed, not me

Please call me on MY words, not YOUR interpretation of them.

Well if my interpretation is correct why should I not!

is just childish.

Childish. You are the one stooping to call people names (Don't care how you justify it) for having an opinion different to yours! Pot calling the kettle black there!

If you would only stop for one moment and consider the alternative though, that I am not out to get you or undermine you and just accept that any thought you have to the contrary of that intent which I know is different to your view as I am the holder of it, isnt coming from me but from within you, you might see differently.

Here we go again I just don't see it that way. Statements like " you might see differently." show you are trying to convince me or prove me wrong. Thats OK but in this case I am right & you have misrepresented the facts

Also wikipedia can hardly be considered a credible source of information as anybody can edit it to suit an agenda. If it is so credible why do academic institutions not recommend using it in studies do to inaccuracys

So..with those being the FACTS as they stand concerning what Apartheid IS - and if you can get over yourself for a moment...can you please " educate me" and show me where Israel is NOT in contravention of this International Law? Facts..links..documentation. Not opinion.

Here is a fact for you they have never been convicted of this in a court of law! That is not an opinion it's a Fact. Don't give me rubbish about the UN being a toothless tiger and the USA protects Israel etc etc. Quite simply if it was being done as you claim they would be stopped! There is no criminal conviction! Thus Not guilty. Everyone including states are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Not some website or university!

I hardly take the word of "left wing" investigators mentioned in the article as Gospel anyway. It's their word against the word of others. Does it make them more right just because they work for the UN?. Go ask Netanyahu if he is the leader of an Apartheid regime. He is going to say no. So what makes the word of some UN employee right over his?

By the way you keep saying that you are not personally attacking me. Well what the hell do you call "Get over yourself". Not personal eh?. Have just proven you wrong again! All because I share a different opinion to you! I have comprehensively eaten you for breakfast on this argument don't care what you or others think! lol lol lol. This is evidenced by the fact you have resorted to insulting me personally with rubbish like "Get over your self" If you want keep the personal insults up let the games begin! I will beat you at that too!

reply to post by phatpackage


The thing that Rosha is (unsuccessfully) trying to explain to you is that all you actually have is an opinion, witch from so far stated and said is based on your biased view, not the facts of any kind.

Please provide some arguments to your posts for change, and there might be some discussion, but please don't use ad hominem.

@Xcathdra - That is interesting, wonder if they will prove it being unconstitutional. If they broke the law, will there be trial, fine and possible jail time for rising ethnic tensions?

reply to post by vietifulJoe

please don't use ad hominem.

Well well I am not the one using phrases like "Get over yourself" maybe you need to direct that comment to some other poster! lol lol lol

Read the last couple of paragraphs of my last post & that is all you need. 1 nil to me!. Don't care what others think about that or me!

The laws are needed by the legal landowners to protect themselves from the daily terrorist threat from the Palestinians. As to whether they are legal under Israeli law well that's a different debate but I stick by my original stance - They are needed!

Biased view? Wow here's someone else who believes just because my opinion if different to theirs "I must be Biased" lol

Just to clear few things out:
A) This is not an Israeli law. This is religious edict,signed and openly supported by almost 50 rabbis, some very prominent. It is in fact against Israeli law.
B) Israeli Head of Government, President and Head of Parliament and Chief rabbinate all openly spoke against this edict and there is a probability that legal action will be taken.
C) Sadly nobody of the above (PM,President,Parliament or Chief Rabbinate) has,eeeh, well - what it takes - to directly tackle those rabbis ,majority of whom are government officials and they pass this hot potato among them-self and finally handed it to legal counselor of the government - "to see if there is a criminal act". Which is very clear ,at least about those people who hold government jobs and who used their titles in signing this thing that is against Israeli laws.
So i do not see how legal counselor can escape making a decision. But even if he somehow succeeds to pass this potato , there is High Court and anybody can file a complain.
D) This religious edict is clearly racist.
E) For those whose logic fails once they see "Israel"
This is not Israeli law.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Israel checking if rabbis broke law with edict

I found this section particulary important for this thread.

The edict has been condemned by a wide spectrum in Israel. Some call it racist. It reflects growing tensions between Israel's Jews and minority Arabs, one-fifth of the population.

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by Rosha

 

It is not "the truth" however and while I have many facts and supportive evidences, even they are not "the truth". In this situation, the truth is known only and best to the hearts and minds of those most direcftly affected - the people of Palestine and their experience of life since coming under Israels rule.

1) It is still the truth

2) So by your assessment only the people of Palestine know? The israeli people don't know & have no right to input? .... HmmI

It is still *your* truth.
By historical fact not only my assessment of those facts, there are many Jewish and Israelie people in and outside of the state of Israel who have given their considered opinions and academic reasoning on this issue. Most agree Israel is an enacting a apartheid state. My personal assessment is beyond that, I believe the state of Isreal is enacting the 4th Reich...if only subconsciously, though the affects of that are evident in current policies.

'The state' being a particular and different entity to the individal people, I can say honestly that I have been priviliged to witness many groups in and outside of the machine of state that are doing wonderful work towards healing and bridging the knowledge gaps...on both sides.

"Knowing", as I reffered to it and intended however, is to experience the *direct* consequences of a thing - to be directly affected. Its nto about who has the "right" to input, it is about what is useful and productive input - what is an authentic perspective if you will, and what is not.

If I broke your leg, you would *know* how a broken leg feels and only someone who has also had a broken leg would comprehend what that is 'really' like.
Others might intellectally understand what it might feel like, but they could not have the same level of direct empathy.

The very very few remaining survivors of Hitlars regime and teir families who are residing in Israel would be the only citizens of the state of Israel that could even begin to comprehend, and from those I have read that do, they also agree - Israel has failed itself, and has taken the wrong turn in dealing with their own trauma, fear, grief and loss.

Instead of healing that trauma and returning to life as one of many peoples, they have instead internalised and reperpetuated the abuses they once suffered, which is not uncommon thing when you comprehend what a victim is and understand trauma and abuse psychology.

Most Israeli citizens alive today where not in the camps however, were not living the communities or ghettos, did not face down Hitlar's social and political tyrrany or the physical psychological emotional and spiritual affects of his social policies and so they have no direct knowledge or personal experience of the persecution they now meter out to the Palestinians and I doubt any but very few would have lived in SA ant any time to have experienced personally the affefts of apartheid there either.

So no, most would not be able to offer valued input as far as the direct consequences of living under a nazi regime or apartheid system - and as the perpertrators of that system, they would not comprehend the victims standpoint...even though, ironically, they are still living proof of the final result of the living wounds of one such system, wounds that have gone unaddressed and unhealed, that have been manipulated by evil men to ensure the survival of the political state above humanity and the love of God and the people.

Like a child who has been traumatised and say, sexually abused, who has been left untreated, they are unable ( as a result of the nature of trauma effect itself) to accept they were not responsible for the abuse, so, slef blaming, they go on often to victimise themselves subconsiously and act that out, outwardly and inwardly. Many go on to be promiscuous and self harming, because of the effect of the initial trauma.
They, Israel, as I see them today compassionately, are a people abused by government, by brutality itself, who have gone to to be brutal and brutes in this same fashion.

That result of the trauma effect is not an excuse for bad behaviour....but it does aid a more compassionate explaination of it and open doors for real help.

Given that for a very long period the state of Israel has been accused of being responsibile for what happened in Nazi Germany this well known trauma affect has been compounded year after year generation after generation.

The only way out of this evil trap of self and fear is acceptance and education...comprehending froma different light, what really was, what is and a full consideraton of what is to come if nothing changes. - underatken with aware support and with all the facts available and on the table.

As a friend to Israel..a real friend not an enemy in white clothing, I am one of the few outsiders who can have input on this topic with any authority as I am also a trauma and torture survivor and so I can stand here and point this out and say to them that I too have suffered this shame and ignomy of unacknowledged trauma effect and I do comprehend the cycle of abuse and abuse perpetuation/self abuse that stems from it.
I know it intimately, fully, I comprehend its nature holistically, and more, with peoples and yes, with Gods assistance, I have overcome it. I live free of the underlying as much as apparent effects today.

All I can do is stand here and keep saying "Recovery is possible. If you choose it."

A friend would not stand idlly by while a friend murders someone or suicides. I refuse to...adn will continue to stand here.

In Israel I see myself, in part..how can I not be empathetic. Perhaps I am guilty of overprojection but this is how I view this sitation. It is to me, the more merciful and compassionate view I can take to overcome my own frustration anger and bewliderment as regards their actions.

I cannot though, anymore than I do not discharge myself of the same, discharge the state of Israel or its people from the responsibility or accountability to address past trauma, to 'deal with it' and 'get over it' as every other victim of trauma in the world is forced to do in order to recover....nor can I compel them to do anything but accept liability for their own consequences if they choose not to given the information is at hand and the refuse to even hear it as I know that that is the KEY to realistic and holsitic recovery.

I too had to suffer many years before I could bear to face the reality of the full consequences of abuse and trauma...and maybe Israel is doing what I did then, now...fearing them instead of facing them and what they have become. I dont know. I am not Israel. I can only say this is whaty it seems to be. To offer what I do have freely, and to be scrupulos in my honesty in what I do not have and will not tolerate - to set boundaries.

In essence and outside of a very few people who were indirectly affected by my trama and its wider consequences, and those who had to witness me who suffered unabel to help, I was only harming myself..not a million+ people...so the urgency for Israel to wake up before it suicides is an imperative...not just for those million plus people..but for Isreals future too. When I was where Israel is now...I was one step from death.

You are accusing me of lacking the facts well in this case it is you who is misformed, not me

Please tell/show me where I have been misinformed...

Here we go again I just don't see it that way. Statements like " you might see differently." show you are trying to convince me or prove me wrong. Thats OK but in this case I am right & you have misrepresented the facts

Also wikipedia can hardly be considered a credible source of information as anybody can edit it to suit an agenda. If it is so credible why do academic institutions not recommend using it in studies do to inaccuracys

To "see differently" isnt me seeking to change you to my point of view..it is simply a suggestion being made to embrace a wider field of vision for yourself...so you can expand or solidify or modify your own view...for yourself.

If you dont want to do that, thats ok. One eyed gods though, generally fail in debate circles.

I posted the wiki leaks link as oposed to hours of tracking to get the documents from the UN..I can confirm the documents supplied to wiki are from those original UN documents however. They are not false or misleading.

Here is a fact for you they have never been convicted of this in a court of law! That is not an opinion it's a Fact. Don't give me rubbish about the UN being a toothless tiger and the USA protects Israel etc etc. Quite simply if it was being done as you claim they would be stopped! There is no criminal conviction! Thus Not guilty. Everyone including states are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Not some website or university!
I hardly take the word of "left wing" investigators mentioned in the article as Gospel anyway. It's their word against the word of others. Does it make them more right just because they work for the UN?. Go ask Netanyahu if he is the leader of an Apartheid regime. He is going to say no. So what makes the word of some UN employee right over his?

There are many criminal regimes in the world that the world is unable or unwilling to hold in check or to account. That does not make them not guilty. A spade is a spade. The crime is self evident, the responsibility and accountability for those crimes resides solely with the criminal.

One way or another, this cycle of perpetuation will stop, in a bloody end or a good one is entirely up to Israel.

In my own belief, God will not pemit the guilty to go unpunished. I am still in that knowing. God knows who they are too...where and how they are. And if the international communities condemnation and considered viewpoint is ignored, is not enough of a motivating factor, if we, people of the world are voices that will remain unheard by Israel, disprespected as insignificant by Israel, then that too is Israels right and choice.

All we can do, biblically and secularly, is to point out the crimes, offer to help them stop, to recover. In that way, we excuse our own souls from sharing in their consequences...and make it known that we are available if any other choice is to be made in the future.

There is nothing more we can do to help. Re traumatising an already sick "person" would be cruelty in action...and I am not cruel.

By the way you keep saying that you are not personally attacking me. Well what the hell do you call "Get over yourself". Not personal eh?. Have just proven you wrong again! All because I share a different opinion to you! I have comprehensively eaten you for breakfast on this argument don't care what you or others think! lol lol lol. This is evidenced by the fact you have resorted to insulting me personally with rubbish like "Get over your self" If you want keep the personal insults up let the games begin! I will beat you at that too!

In order to debate, taking everything so personally is ' being in yourself'...acting in ' everyone is attacking me' ways *is* to be self absorbed as oposed to addressing the facts and issues...most of which have nothing to do with you personally.

Getting over that - hence, getting "over yourself", is to focus on the issues and that is a skill of debate and a highly valable one.

You cant be useful to anyone anywhere until you do learn to respond rather than react. If you continue to choose to take everything I write as a personal attack though..then this will be my last post and you will have shown yourself incapable of adult/mature debate. Its that simple. I dont determine that result - you do. I just observe it and feed that back to you...no malice and no one upmanship intended as I am secure in my self and my position and dont need to attack...its just feedback. I am sorry that feedback affects you so badly...but it is just that.




Rosha.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Israel checking if rabbis broke law with edict

I found this section particulary important for this thread.

The edict has been condemned by a wide spectrum in Israel. Some call it racist. It reflects growing tensions between Israel's Jews and minority Arabs, one-fifth of the population.

I was thinking about this difference yesterday...its an important one...my hope is most citizens will see it as such too.

Thanks for raising the point.


Rosha

reply to post by Rosha


Anytime.. We can argue the rights and wrong all week, and would still not find any type of consensus. The issues in the Middle East, imo, are perpetuated by the radical elements on both sides of the conflict.

Its going to take people, like Palestinian Firefighters who helped extinguish the forest fire, saving Israeli lives and houses, Israeli tv stars boycotting in protest to Israeli Government construction in the occupied territories, to the rank and file people who found the Edicts disgusting and offensive and spoke up about it.

While some may see this as nothing more than trivial acts, the impact it can have can be profound and long lasting.

Sometimes, its the small things that has the most effect.

reply to post by phatpackage


So you stand by your comments, even though they make absolutely no sense in the context of the topic, unless you are saying every non-Jew is a terrorist thug?



You must enjoy the taste of feet, man. 'Cause the post I responded to just made no sense in context. The article isn't "Don't sell land to terrorists," it's "don't sell to non-Jews."

"Deadly serious" just makes it extra-goofy.

Originally posted by phatpackage
The laws are needed by the legal landowners to protect themselves from the daily terrorist threat from the Palestinians. As to whether they are legal under Israeli law well that's a different debate but I stick by my original stance - They are needed!

So there goes only argument you had (it's law) and you continue with your non-argument opinion (that for some reason you don't think is biased)....

Funny.... now they are needed, even if they are unlawful....

Do you know what segregation means??