U.S. using chemical weapons in Afghanistan: report

reply to post by space cadet


Read the large reply I posted to Xcathdra.

There is a BBC link there which has the name of the head of the organization ---> from there you can do more research.

Now that you have read the evidence, you have the right to make your mind up.

At least now you don't just chuck everything away by naming them propaganda.

Anyways, did you read the follow up report? Where it took in to consideration the other factors which might have caused the contamination, but ruled them out because of a heavy connection between bombs ----> contamination?

reply to post by oozyism


Please go back and read the information I added by edit to my last post. It is regarding the reliabilty of this non profit charity that is posting the 'findings'. It is a non profit charity located in Canada.

reply to post by space cadet


The question remains, why has no one come forward to take the challenge? To see whether their work is credible or not?

Your next research point.

I have done mine, it is your turn, I will give you clues to guide you:

Scientist from Japan was invited to Afghanistan to investigate, but I don't know what happened.

reply to post by oozyism


Allow me to tell you that I am pretty up to date about the use of uranium in weaponry. My husband suffers several disturbances due to expose to depleted uranium during Operation Desert Storm, he was stationed less than a mile south of Bagdad, a Navy Corpsman, he was exposed. His multitude of symptoms were going unchecked as exposure, until the US government admitted to it's use, and allows Gulf War veterans to now be tested for exposure and treated under their expense. We try to stay as updated as possible, and believe me there are many so called experts willing to get involved, or include him in a study. But the fact is the government came to him, they put together the neccesary medical history, the dates of exposure, ect and accepted responsibility.

I am sure that they would do the same in this case as well.

When asked how he feels about what has happened to him, he recalls a day that their makeshift hospital was under attack, he was forced to take up arms, and shot an Iraqi soldier, who he later had to take that same bullet out of this man's wound. The Iraqi soldier expressed grattitude, he said he would no longer be forced to fight, he even became a friend to most at the hospital. It was very clear he was fighting for a cause he did not believe in, and that his injury would relive him of that duty. My husband knows, through the testimony of that man, and of many other Iraqi civilians, knows that his presence was appreciated. He would do it again.

reply to post by space cadet


So this is personal for you.

I get it

Ta.

Edit to add:

Didn't want to come forward as rude mannered by ending the conversation with a "Ta", so I will add that I want to end it because it is personel for you, and I don't want you to be forced in an uncomfortable discussion.

reply to post by oozyism


Thank you dear. I appreciate that. I do understand though that this war is personal for you too, I think you are seeking answers, just as we have. But I have learned to filter through the sources, we were going crazy at first about this, so many answers, and so many sources for answers. But the right answers came through, he gets treatment now and is improving.

reply to post by oozyism


Here is some info for you to research - This will shed some light on why we say he report is biased and innacurate.

From the Teran News article you linked:News Source

1. An Afghan investigative research scholar, Dr. Mohammad Daud Miraki conducted a field research in the southern provinces of the country. He accumulated enough empirical evidence regarding the use of poisonous weapons in the area.

1st - He is referred to as Dr. However, he is not one in the manner he is being portrayed in (IE Scientific with specialization in a Scientific field for researh, study, expermenting).

Daud was admitted at the University of Illinois, Chicago, where he started to study biology. However, he changed his major to Political Science because of his desires to contribute to the betterment of Afghanistan. In 1992, he graduated with a BA in political science.

Daud Miraki received two Master’s degree.[3] His first Master’s degree was in Political Science, specialization in International Relations, which he completed in 1993. His second Master’s degree was in Middle Eastern Studies, specialization in Conflict Resolution, which he received in 1996. In 2000, he completed his PhD in Public Policy Analysis

If he is not a doctor, or scientist, I would say the method to collect his "empirical evidence" is going to be flawed since proper collection techniques, seperation of samples, isolation of samples from one area so as not to cross contaminate samples from another area, or if the evidence was planted.

Ok.. We will give the good man the benefiet of the doubt and move on to the second part of the Teran News Article.

2. In 2002, a research team of Canadian Medical Research Center visited southern provinces of Afghanistan and found that the magnitude of uranium isotopes in the inhabitants was soaring between 300 and 2000 nanograms while the accepted limit is 10 nanograms.

Uranium Radiation Levels in Afghanistan Report

What Uranium is tested? - U234, U235 and U238 - All of which are used in munitions as well as naturally occuring in nature.

First the article states the research found uranium isotopes in the inhabitants ranging from 300 to 2000. The problem is this is no where in the Canadiens report. I went back to the website of the Candien report to see if I missed it but could not find this number in any reports. The reason this number is important is its used to quantify the damge levels to the inhabitants who tested for it, according to the article..

Uranium Medical Research Centre

Implied in the Article -

Governments in Canada, the US, the UK, and the World Health Organisation have carried out DU testing on individuals exposed to inhalational DU.

The Problem with that thought and why it causes issues with the articles conclusions?

Although tests have been conducted, they did not employ the proper methodology and equipment to quantify inhalational exposure to DU. They tested individuals for total uranium.

DU is always mixed with a natural uranium background so you have to measure the DU in the presence of natural uranium. That requires an isotopic analysis of U235, U238 at least and preferably also of U236 which does not exist in natural uranium. The U238/U235 ratio of 137.9 indicates natural uranium; ratios above 140 provide unequivocal evidence of the presence of depleted uranium. It is essential to determine whether the uranium is depleted, enriched, or natural uranium in order to determine how long it has been in the body. If DU or enriched uranium is found in the body, we can postulate that it has been internally irradiating the victims since their exposure.

The total uranium measurement by itself is not important, most people have uranium which they take in and eliminate on a daily basis though water or food. The US DU testing program tested shrapnel victims; they have not tested for inhalational exposures.

The WHO study did not test human samples. The Canadian and Belgian studies used equipment that could not measure U235.

So with the above information, the first article used is misrepresented in the article, and the claim the article made itself is based off of something that is non existant on humans.

3. Iran’s Arabic language channel al-Alam TV website has posted a video report about newly-born infants suffering from deformities and abnormal body parts caused by the usage of biological weapons. See http:www.alalam.ir/node/307570.

The US did not employ Biological weapons in Afghanistan, or in any other country for that manner. The only confirmed use of Biological weapoins was during the Iraq-Iran war, and has been confirmed as Yellow Rain" (T-2 tricothecene mycotoxins). Iranian and Iraqi soldiers who were sent to Europe for treatment test positive for this in addition to mustard gas.

The video linked talks about deformities in children, but does not give any credible proof of where the video came from, where the children came from, the areas they were from that is contaminated", or medical history of the parents. There is no way to verify any authenticiy / information in the video to conclusivly link it to the article.

The other problem is the article is accusing the US of using Chemical weapons, not Biological. The video specifically covers deformities in relation to Biological weapons.

The last section, section 4, I will break down into segment to make this easier to read and understand.

4. A Senior official of the Kabul Regime’s Ministry of Health told media some times ago that they had obtained evidences, indicating that the Americans had used depleted uranium munitions and phosphorus bombs in Tora bora in east Afghanistan in 2001.

I am not able to locate any information regarding the evidence obtained. Before I buy into this hook liune and sinker I would like to see the obtained evidence. Giving the benefiet of the doubt, if DU munitions were used, it would be isolated to the Tora Bora region, as the article claims. However even the testing done on the people from those areas were not caused by DU, but NDU, per the supporting reports you provided.

The Candian report you are using specifically states the radiation talked about was not DU, but NDU. You will need to notice this part specifically because it is important at the end. The section below is from part 8 of the Canadian report:

UMRC’s Afghan civilian findings have been criticised by a leading anti-DU activist. Responding to this criticism may shed light on questions of those who are understandably confused by the discovery of Non-depleted Uranium and its possible use by Operation Enduring Freedom. Below is the reply (objections are indented and in quote marks):

“UMRC’s findings of Non-depleted Uranium (as opposed to Depleted Uranium) confuses the public’s understanding of the issues”:

2nd block of part 4

Deformed infants have been born in the area or some have deformed body parts or suffering from weightlessness or mental retardation. Diseases like leukemia (blood white cells disease) is widespread in the area. Sperms “infertility” malfunction in males have been noticed. Many persons have died without an open wound.

* - Children suffering from weightlessness (Giving the benefiet of the doubt its possible the article meant weightloss) and mental retardation, Lukemia, sperms infertility.

These symptoms are accurate, but the article decided to move them into the Uranium exposure category. The symptoms described above are attributed to Atomic Radiation exposure in acute form, instead of the months to years uranium exposure needs to cause the cancers.

Specifically these, which the article ignored to attribute it to uranium:
- Radium
- Thorium
- Polonium
* Uranium
**These 4 only cause the above symptoms only from a nuclear detonation, and all 4 of these cause immidiate burns**

Addressing the lower dose exposure implied in the article, runs into this problem:

However, at much lower doses, such as those experienced in uranium mining, atomic radiation cannot be detected by any of our human senses. Special instruments are needed. Alpha radiation, the kind associated with radon gas and most of the other uranium decay products, is difficult to detect even with instruments.

The article cites Congenital Deformities:

a condition existing at birth and often before birth, or that develops during the first month of life (neonatal disease), regardless of causation. Of these diseases, those characterized by structural deformities are termed "congenital anomalies"; that is a different concept (MeSH) which involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus.

A congenital disorder may be the result of genetic abnormalities, the intrauterine (uterus) environment, errors of morphogenesis, infection, or a chromosomal abnormality. The outcome of the disorder will depend on complex interactions between the pre-natal deficit and the post-natal environment.[1] Animal studies indicate that the mother's (and possibly the father's) diet, vitamin intake, and glucose levels prior to ovulation and conception have long-term effects on fetal growth and adolescent and adult disease.[2] Congenital disorders vary widely in causation and abnormalities. Any substance that causes birth defects is known as a teratogen.

The older term congenital[3] disorder does not necessarily refer to a genetic disorder despite the similarity of the words. Some disorders can be detected before birth through prenatal diagnosis (screening).

Simply invoking the term Congenital Defects and showing pictures of deformed babies does not support the claim. Congenital is hereditary and is a result from a bunch of factors, and without complete information released from the researcher, the information is circumstantial at best. The same holds for Lukemia, with no information to support other than it being written down.

Part 3

All Americans military and civilian rulers are held responsible for these anti-human crimes. Ironically, still, the crimes have been continuing in Afghanistan at the hands of the invading Americans and their coalition forces, in a time that many human rights organizations including those of the United Nations and the Human Rights Watch have presence in the country.

I will address this section as an opinion, since DU use is not illegal, nor is it banned by the United Nations. Secondly, the reports above, the ones linked, and the 2 follow up articles you provided Oozzzy all have the same conclusion, which is:

Afghan civilians exposed to OEF bombing contaminated with Non-depleted Uranium – not, Depleted Uranium

However, we did not use any NDU weapons in Afghanistan, and as such, the exposure to NDU, as the medical report states, is coming from a source other than military weapons in theatre. They also have not ruled out abnormal background radiation, geological issues, etc. This is NOT saying the OEF bombing used NDU. It IS saying the civilians who were exposed to allied bombs were contaiminated in a different way than the bombs.

Part 4

To fulfill its responsibility, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan calls on all human rights organizations and other relevant entities, organizations and independent personalities to take steps, as a part of their responsibility, to impede those who are involved in human rights violations and bring them to human rights crimes tribunals. Moreover, speed up efforts aimed at disseminating awareness and unearthing more cases of crimes against humanity. Spokesman of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (Taliban website).

While I 100 percent agree we should all put pressure on groups who violate Human Rights, whether it be in the US, or the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. I will point out the last section came from the Taliban Spokesman.

OK, we have all 4 sections, including the reports used to compile all of this information. Evidence has been provided to refute the evidence, again, and the article is even more biased as well as misleading, using skewed information to paint a picture of something that takes the plight of their people and uses it as propoganda to blame someone else for the problem.

If you remeber near the mid part of this response I posted some information and told you to remeber it because it would become important at the end of this post. Here it is with a quick recap:

** The Report found the cause to be NDU
and
*** Leading, anti-DU activist challenges UMRC’s Afghan findings

Why is that important, that the leading activist disagreed with the Canadian report?

Because of this:
Mohammed Daud Miraki, who is the "Doctor" who put this "report" together, who is being portrayed as an independant, non biased, impartial researcher is actually:

** The founder and head of a non-for-profit organization, Afghan DU & Recovery Fund.
** Specializing in - to raise awareness and funds to initiate some DU clean up projects, relocate villagers from bombed villages, and provide clean water and other basic sustenance for the poor people of Afghanistan.

** He is also the Leading, anti-DU activist challenges UMRC’s Afghan findings.

What does this mean? It means Mr. Miraki is pushing an Agenda designed to lay the blame directly at the doorstep of the United States of America, in conjunction with Iran and the Taliban, who conviently published the story and refered to Mr. Miraki as a Doctor to lend credibility to his opinions, and the Taliban, who were presented in the artcile calling on all nations and groups to challenge the Human Rights abuses being comiited by the United States in Afghanistan.

As we have told you before, present information and back it up. The info you have provided, from your origional post, to all of the reports you gave, are inconsistent with the findings. The information you are using is being cherry picked and purposely manipulated in a way as to lend credence and legitimacy to a biased report that is a work of scince fiction.

If you want to try again using different reports, maybe from Russian or Indians instead of the Canadians and the Russians, post it and I will debunk it for you.

A word of advice - An investigation is a quest for the truth, using all available information, conducted in such a manner where the investigator is not attached or invested into the outcome. Instead they are seeking the truth, the whole truth, regardless of how information supports, or even destroys their case.

When reports like the one you posted are used and portrayed as Fact, it becomes problematic for the exact same arguments youhave given when it comes to American reports. The Canadiens who did this research, and even using the German Report you cited, backs up the claims I have made. There is no conclusive evidence present to link the use of Depleted Uranium to the illnesses and deformities that they are being associated with, and you know this.

How do I know you know this, because you said so in your post. The German report states DU ammunition was used in Afghanistan, which is something the US denies. Giveing the Germans the beneefiet of the doubt, the other reports you are citing have all stated that DU is NOT the cause of the problems, citing NDU as the source.

The US has never used Chemical or Biological weapons in our conflicts in the Middle East or Afghanistan. However, Iraq and Iran did engage in Chemical AND Biological warfare during there war, and their is a possibility according to the reports you cited could be a cause to due exposure to the human body, food chain, water chain with the damages being passed from generation to generation.

I don't know how to get through to you that we are not the enemy. If you find information that is verifiable, and where the sources are not hidden because they are behind the claims, you will have no problems finding Americans to symphathize and take up the cause over here.

One of the stumbling blocks though, as you tell us, you are going to need to stop posting stories and accepting everything present in them as absolute fact. We have had a few of these debates now, and in every single one we have shown the sources are in conflict with the story, rendering them as biased, with manipulation of facts and omission of words to twist the facts to fit the story.

How can you say this article is absolutely true and fair, when the "Doctor" who started the investigation is not even a real Doctor. The paper that printed the story continued calling him a doctor, furthering the untruthfulness and misleading direction of the article. When the information provided by the "Doctor" was not collected in a scientific manner so as to preserve samples, to avoid cross contamination or any other step that go wrong, invalidating samples, there is an immidiate flaw in the outcome of results/

When the article invokes the use of Chemical and Biological weapons, and in the same sentence implies that the US used them in theater, again with no supporting documentation or independant, verifiable information.

You want to know what gives us the right to question the article and the methods used, and the conclusions there of?

Its called living in a free society where its not taboo to challenge people, where we can see all of the evidence collected, the manner it was collected, stored, transported, stored. Where we have access to the full report, and not a version of it the Government is wanting to sell.

The article is geared towards the US and our actions - So my question to you is why do we NOT have a right to challenge it and question the reliability o sources and methods? Only in Middle Eatern countries would someone want to know where another person gets a right to challenge and question something the Government puts out.

This site is www.Abovetopsecret.com and is based on the premis of Deny Ignorance.

The manner in which that is done is to have a full and open discussion about topcs that concern us all. Sometimes this means posting information you want to beleive is real, only to find out its not. Somtimes its reading someone else post, only to find you know the answer and burst the bubble of the poster.

The moment we dont question an article, or a researcher, or the methods used, the manner the report was done, the people the report was done on, the type of participation, locations, background information, supporting documentation etc, we are no longer seeking the truth and we are in fact, embracing ignorance.

As I said, you make some excellent posts, and in some cases PressTV has actually gotten it right. The problem, and I have said this before, is your zeal to take whatever you can, and to blame the United States for it, regardless of how you come to that conclusion.

I honestly do not think you fully grasp the concept of a free society, freedom of press, freedom of expression, or the pursuit of your own life, liberty and happiness. When someone provides information to refute your argument, dont get pissed. Dont dismiss their post because you dont agree with it. Take the information they provided and look into it.

You never know, sometimes the info a debunker provides very well might be the smoking gun in your response when you find a flaw in their argument. Simply stating you have not contributed anything to this thread is a weak cop out. How do I know this? Look at your first post, and scrool down and look at my first post, and count the starts above the each.

When you tell me I have nott contributed anything to this thread, you look like a an adle minded kid who is trowing a temper tantrum, packs up his marbles and goes home because no one will play with you.

I end it with this thought - Not everything you read from the West is true, and not everything we read from the middle East is true. Its up to each one of us to read the info and research it to find our own answers.

Firendly Advice that you have given to me on occasion:
Try this on your next post, find a story you like and want to bring to others attention. Rsearch the article before posting it here. Check the names of the people listed to see if they are who they are, check any reports they cite to see if the quoted information is accurate, check the media outlet reporting the info and check who they are owned by. One of the disconnects I see from you, and you from us, is trust of the media. You lay the exact same level of trust in western media as we do in media coming from Iran.

2 wrongs do not make a right, but it does give you, and us, common ground to work from. As an example the case where PressTV covered the Israeli actors boycotting an event to protest jewish settlement expansion. The most recent where Palkestinian firefighters worked side by side with Israeli firefighters to help put on the forest fire. 2 very differnet groups on opposite ends of the spectrum, coming together to stop a larger injustice.

You would be surprised how many friends can be made that way. All it took was a common goal and a few people who could care less about politics, concentrating instead on whats right.

When we, and you, stop looking, stop excersizing independant thought, stop challenging the Government, then we are nothing, and we have lost everything.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I think I have achieved what I have came here to do

Thanks.

The above is truly what ATS is suppose to be about.

I'm not gonna try to argue with anything you say, because I have achieved my goal

reply to post by oozyism


Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the day. I will say this though, my personal opinion on why you are bowing ou is because the post above yours give clear, specific information calling into question the Doctor, his conclusions, the reporting of those conclusions in addition to other various methods used to skew the result.

You say you are intrested in the truth, yet your actions say otherwise.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by oozyism

 

Whatever you need to tell yourself to get through the day. I will say this though, my personal opinion on why you are bowing ou is because the post above yours give clear, specific information calling into question the Doctor, his conclusions, the reporting of those conclusions in addition to other various methods used to skew the result.

You say you are intrested in the truth, yet your actions say otherwise.

I bow down to you because I made you work, that was my objective from the start.

This will stick to your head, the intense questioning of every piece of evidence provided for you and the questioning, regarding the credibility of the individuals writing the reports, and the questioning, regarding the credibility of everyone who supports the idea of DU and NDU weapons being used in Afghanistan.

Then when the time come, you will see how this has helped you

I hope you figure out my intentions after a good night sleep if not, tell me, I will be happy to continue the debate, just give yourself time.

Have they tested all of these, before ruling them all out as possible deformation causes?

science.jrank.org...

or this ?

www.medindia.net...

Ah, I forgot they didn't test women at all.

How about this ?

www.dailymail.co.uk...

As I said in my first post, this research is baloney. Thank god I didn't have to go through much effort to find this stuff.

reply to post by Xcathdra

I did..

actually, you didn't. i said pentagon had tested nuclear explosion in Japan to see how it reacts upon real humans, real city

For the US is was called Operation Paperclip. We smuggled german Scientists out and they went to work in our Space and weapons programs.

yes, dozen of scientists from Germany worked for pentagon & Nazi's [have] worked too

We have nothing to do with the Opium trade in Afghanistan, aside from trying to destroy it.

so touchingly, i'm gonna cry of it what was the real reason for pentagon to plug 'emself into Afghan?? al-qaeda? taliban? ben laden? en.wikipedia.org...

I think I would rather be killed by my arrogance, rather than your ignorance.

no doubt, pal, your wishes shall be executed

Originally posted by space cadet
reply to post by oozyism

 

Allow me to tell you that I am pretty up to date about the use of uranium in weaponry.

Obviously not. I know a lot of academic instructors here and they all discuss what depleted uranium is really capable of. They are up to date in scientific and political fields. This is especially true with affairs in the Middle East, because Canada is involved.

The OP source has been attacked constantly in this thread. The naysayers believe that this must be the only article in existence that portrays the realities of DU being used a chemical weapon (which it is). I personally have been presented with much more articles and reports stating DU atrocities than disproving them (which are very few, because how can you scientifically disprove something that is obviously there? You can't, aside from denying it completely).

yet another example how altruistic illegitimi of pentagon & their owners/masters www.nytimes.com...

Originally posted by SarK0Y
yet another example how altruistic illegitimi of pentagon & their owners/masters www.nytimes.com...

Funny story about that... The Soviets actually discovered these deposits in the 80s. The US is now offering mining contracts to coalition partners who stay in the fight, as opposed to withdrawing. Afghanistan is all about resources.

reply to post by solidshot


If DU is so benign then why is it not used in the United States? How come we only use it in the Middle East?

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Nothing can vie against story about the ben laden & other cia sh!t however, yes -- it's most effective method to keep current coalition & to join new members. but yet another funny story about that is minerals shall be traded for buckie

Originally posted by SarK0Y
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

 

Nothing can vie against story about the ben laden & other cia sh!t

You know...

I'm in the political science field. I've always used to look at people who talk about world issues being one big game as being crazy conspiracy nuts... then lately I've just gotten the epiphany that it really is just a game to the powers that be.

The US invasion of the Middle East was a gameplan written out in the late 90s (PNAC) and sold to the American public under Bush's neo-conservative reign. The US government presented completely fabricated lies and evidence which the majority of American people, with no actual experience in political affairs, believed without question because no matter what goes on there, the US people will benefit in the end (as long as the US military achieves victory). The general questioning of US actions in the ME by the American people is directly related to the failures of the US campaign there.

At least when the Soviets occupied Afghanistan, they did it to support the Communist government that was under siege there. They didn't try to sell a plan to invade Afghanistan, they actually had a reason to go in there (though it was the USSR that put the communist party in power in Afghanistan in the first place, but at least it was much more progressive than the older imperialist Kabul regime).

The US worked very hard to create rebels in Afghanistan, to incite terrorism against the Soviets. The Soviets had to leave, and Afghanistan collapsed into civil war without Soviet backing. And then the US decides to just walk in there, oust the Taliban government which struggled for over a decade to form a stable government, and create more war for the Afghan people? And on top of this the Americans turn Afghanistan into a radiological wasteland while pillaging its resources?

I can't believe that there are really people remaining out there who still think the US is hunting Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was the best thing that ever happened to the US in modern times; so good in fact, that he was probably made by the CIA (as history shows, he was indeed).

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

The general questioning of US actions in the ME by the American people is directly related to the failures of the US campaign there.

Amicus, say truly, there ain't pentagon failure because there ain't conventional war: taliban was & is supported by cia, actual war has been only screen to cover up dirty affairs. Nothing has changed in this World: Just follow money, Just follow Power & you'll get roots

Originally posted by gravitational
Have they tested all of these, before ruling them all out as possible deformation causes?

science.jrank.org...

or this ?

www.medindia.net...

Ah, I forgot they didn't test women at all.

How about this ?

www.dailymail.co.uk...

As I said in my first post, this research is baloney. Thank god I didn't have to go through much effort to find this stuff.

Deformities can be caused by many things, just like cancer, but it isn't hard to make a direct link to what actually caused it.

I think that you think that people are stupid retards who can't connect the dots.

There is clear contamination, which has been tested biologically and samples taken from around the bomb sites.

The Urine tests of people clearly shows contamination, there is clear link between the bombs being dropped and the contamination.

Some argue it might be natural, but there is absolutely no evidence of that, and no one, neither the Afghan government, nor the US/US (who is the accused) has tried to refute the reports, because they want it to sink and forgotten, and it is forgotten.