Profiling or Body Scanners

Greetings ATS members. We have all seen/heard/read about the TSA and their new scanners with the requisite
"pat downs" for those who opt out. So, knowing that these scanners will not detect explosives, and knowing that the "pat downs" are considered a sexual assault in any other context, do they make you feel any safer? Does strip searching a young boy bring real safety? What about the 4th amendment? Does purchasing an airline ticket really allow the government to abrogate our civil liberties? Where is the line?
On the other hand we have Israel. They use a system of profiling. Their are no naked body scanners subjecting citizens to radiation. Yet Israel has not had any sort of hijacking since 1968. Thoughts?

Despite this being nearly word for word Sean Hannity/FOX News propaganda, I'll play along.

Simply put, air travel is not mandatory, it's not necessary for business, it's not a requirement. If you must travel for some reason and you don't want the body scanners, or pat downs, you can always drive your own car.

As for your point of Israel does profiling and that works, well, they also illegally occupy Palestinian land and destroy Palestinian settlements, should we follow that as well?

I am not condoning the pat downs per se, I just want to inject some reality and I know reality isn't going to be heard on FOX News.

I am of the opinion that if you choose to fly, then you have to deal with the inconveniences that go along with that.Otherwise, take a car. Or use technology to conduct business.

I am not sure that racial/ethnic/religious profiling is the best strategy to go with (and before you say it's not racial/ethnic/religious profiling, let me stop you, it really is.)

Originally posted by whatukno
Despite this being nearly word for word Sean Hannity/FOX News propaganda, I'll play along.

I will have to start listening to Sean Hannity. I don't watch TV, but google says he has a radio program, so I will check that out.

Simply put, air travel is not mandatory, it's not necessary for business, it's not a requirement. If you must travel for some reason and you don't want the body scanners, or pat downs, you can always drive your own car.

Yeah, right. Tell that to my boss who wants me in Las Vegas on Tuesday, Toronto on Thursday, and hopefully home to Virginia Beach on Friday. By car? Be real, Train? Slower than driving, same with bus. Teleconferencing to repair a malfunctioning multiplexed network on an ambulance? Sorry, doesn't work that way. My job sends me all over the world and this crap is getting very old. In a better economy, I would quit and do something else.

As for your point of Israel does profiling and that works, well, they also illegally occupy Palestinian land and destroy Palestinian settlements, should we follow that as well?

That is a whole other can of worms, but sure let's play. The "Palestinians", a group that did not even exist 80 years ago, left the original territories when Israel first formed. They left believing that their fellow muslims would destroy the nascent nation in short order. However, Israel defeated the combined forces of several nations(we can get more in depth in another thread if you like) not once but several times gaining territory each time. They would have been smarter to force all of their enemies out of the the newly occupied lands, at which point simple possession of the lands would be a strong argument for keeping them or at least give them a much stronger position from which to negotiate. Oh, By the way, I am strongly pro-Israel on this point and not ashamed of it.

I am not condoning the pat downs per se, I just want to inject some reality and I know reality isn't going to be heard on FOX News.

So you kind of support the Constitution, just not always? Our God given rights and freedoms are subject to government control whenever it suits them, without any reasonable suspicion to support such invasive searches? So what next then? Getting on a train? A bus? Carpooling? Going to a neighborhood park? As or kids go to school? Where exactly is the "line" in your point of view?

I am of the opinion that if you choose to fly, then you have to deal with the inconveniences that go along with that.Otherwise, take a car. Or use technology to conduct business.

Sorry, some people have to travel to conduct their business. Freedom of travel is one of our inalienable rights.

I am not sure that racial/ethnic/religious profiling is the best strategy to go with (and before you say it's not racial/ethnic/religious profiling, let me stop you, it really is.)

Sure it is. However, how many white old grandmothers have strapped explosives to themselves? How many three year old boys? How many two year old girls have put bombs in their teddy bears? How many 40 year old white males? Can you break those numbers down for me? Or at least provide the links? Now, not all muslims are terrorists, BUT the VAST MAJORITY of TERRORISTS are muslims.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

I will have to start listening to Sean Hannity. I don't watch TV, but google says he has a radio program, so I will check that out.

Right, because of this, you are going to start to listen to Hannity, uh huh, even though you are parroting FOX News talking points word for word.

Yeah, right. Tell that to my boss who wants me in Las Vegas on Tuesday, Toronto on Thursday, and hopefully home to Virginia Beach on Friday.

Oh well, tough ain't it? Too bad, who cares? I don't fly, doesn't bother me one bit, I don't really care if it inconveniences you, or if you feel uncomfortable, because you do have a choice in the matter and whining about it isn't going to fix the problem. You do have the right to travel freely, if you don't like how they run things at airports, well don't take a plane.

So you kind of support the Constitution, just not always?

I completely support the constitution, course I don't care if your choice of travel is inconvenient. Course I am also giving the country a perfect solution to this problem, but you won't see it. How fast do you think the airlines would demand a change if they lost enough money from people avoiding air travel?

Sorry, some people have to travel to conduct their business. Freedom of travel is one of our inalienable rights.

Sorry, but it's Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not right to fly on an airplane.

Or at least provide the links? Now, not all muslims are terrorists, BUT the VAST MAJORITY of TERRORISTS are muslims.

I see, so how many actual "terrorists" have struck in america? About what 25 that were Muslim? Let's talk about Ted Kaczynski, Tim McVeigh, Joseph A Stack, Frank Eugene Corder, The Army of God, People who bombed abortion clinics, people who bombed black churches, the KKK etc..., so no, the vast majority of terrorists aren't Muslims, they are white right wing Christian fundamentalists and nutcases, so maybe we should profile them too eh?

Again, if it's inconvenient for you to go through security at an airport, you do have a choice, drive a car. Or hell, walk for all I care.

reply to post by whatukno

Oh well, tough ain't it? Too bad, who cares? I don't fly, doesn't bother me one bit,....

This is the most telling statement. In Nazi Germany, I bet people like you said "They are just Jews, so I don't care" In ancient Rome people like you said "It is just Christians, so I don't care". In the 1950s and 60s, people like you said... "They are just Niggers, so why should I care?"

Don't people like you realize that when anybody's rights are trampled, everybody loses? We need Security, but we NEED liberty. Profiling(I mean the Israeli Style as they currently use. They address actions and mannerisms as well as some things that they likely are not telling us; not just racial profiling), bomb sniffing dogs, and metal detectors would do a much better job then the strip search machines and the molestation. Hell, the puffer machines are better at checking for explosives plus they are cheaper and faster. So use them along with the standard metal detectors. The Naked body scanners WILL NOT find bombs.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

This is the most telling statement. In Nazi Germany, I bet people like you said "They are just Jews, so I don't care" In ancient Rome people like you said "It is just Christians, so I don't care". In the 1950s and 60s, people like you said... "They are just Niggers, so why should I care?"

Most FOX News fans would have been very happy in Nazi Germany, I don't really see why this is such an issue for you.

But see what you are saying is "It's just Muslims, so I don't care, as long as they get hassled and not me."

Basically you are saying as long as they aren't stomping on your perceived rights, then it's all good, as long as YOU don't have to go through the machine or get a pat down, it's fine.

like I said, I don't want to go through a machine, nor do I want a pat down, so I just don't fly, for me, the problem is solved. Maybe you can buy your own aircraft and air strip and that way you won't have to deal with the TSA either and you can still fly.

reply to post by whatukno

Sorry, no goose stepper here.

You are missing my entire point. The porno machines and the groping do not work. They do nothing but provide a method of conditioning the sheeple to accept the trampling of their rights and the rights of others. If you really want to make safety a priority; use the puffer machines, the metal detectors, bomb sniffing dogs, and profiling. There is no need to virtually strip search people who have only committed the crime of buying an airline ticket.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


Well, another solution is, if you don't want to fly, and are unwilling to travel for your job, either you (if you own your business) or your boss can subcontract your job out to in state personnel that don't have to fly in order to provide service. That way, they ship the parts to the subcontractor, the sub installs, and you don't have to fly.

It would probably be cheaper too for you (or your boss) in the long run because airline tickets plus your hotel plus your per diem, doesn't seem very fiscally efficient in this economic climate to me.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Well, another solution is, if you don't want to fly, and are unwilling to travel for your job, either you (if you own your business) or your boss can subcontract your job out to in state personnel that don't have to fly in order to provide service. That way, they ship the parts to the subcontractor, the sub installs, and you don't have to fly.

It would probably be cheaper too for you (or your boss) in the long run because airline tickets plus your hotel plus your per diem, doesn't seem very fiscally efficient in this economic climate to me.

LOL. If he could find others that could do my job half as well, I would likely have been replaced long ago. My skill and competence keep me employed. I am hard headed, with a bad attitude. I have already let my boss know how much I hate the new flight rules. However some flight is unavoidable.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


One thing I have learned in this life, everyone is expendable. Especially in a bad economy. If I were your boss, I would be looking to curb my expenses, and an employee who can't stomach the problems of the job sure can be replaced.

Like I said before, if enough people boycotted air travel, the airlines themselves would throw the biggest stink to kill these scans and pat downs, as long as people are willing to subject themselves to it, they will do it.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

One thing I have learned in this life, everyone is expendable. Especially in a bad economy. If I were your boss, I would be looking to curb my expenses, and an employee who can't stomach the problems of the job sure can be replaced.

LOL. I have already tried to train 2 of my replacements, they just don't last. The customers love me. I get sent to east bum f**k, the customer is pissed when I get there because his brand new $500,000 fire truck or $1,000,000+ command vehicle doesn't do what it is supposed to do. When I leave, it does, and I have made the customer happy again. Not everybody can do my job. I really hate to sound elitist, but most people are just too stupid or lazy or both to do what I do.
The bad attitude is toward the lazy builders cutting corners or pinching wires behind cabinets or designers not taking EMI into account when designing circuits. I enjoy the work itself, and used to enjoy the travel. Now the travel sucks.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

I have already tried to train 2 of my replacements, they just don't last.

Yea, I wouldn't train my replacement accurately either, thats just basic CYA strategy, if no one else can do your job, then you will always have a job, sabotaging other people so that they can't do the job right is one of the first steps making sure you are indispensable.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

I have already tried to train 2 of my replacements, they just don't last.

Yea, I wouldn't train my replacement accurately either, thats just basic CYA strategy, if no one else can do your job, then you will always have a job, sabotaging other people so that they can't do the job right is one of the first steps making sure you are indispensable.

edit on 12/4/2010 by whatukno because: (no reason given)

Nobody said I was stupid, well my ex-wife probably does.

reply to post by whatukno


Let me say that I loathe Fox News and Hannity equally, and these body scanners and pat downs have my blood boiling. Many people, including someone I know personally, say the pat downs make them feel like they have just been assaulted. I cannot imagine how any free country would allow another person to physically inspect another persons body by running their hands all over someone groin and breast without any reasonable cause. Basically, anyone who is flying is being treated as a terror suspect and, as such, is then subjected to search and seizure without a warrant. This is against our constitution.

I am flying to see my dad in Missouri in May. It is not even logical to expect me to make a two to three day drive each way in order to see my father, whom I only get to see once a year, just so I won't be sexually assaulted by a government employee. I just heard that my airport put in the body scanners. I am seriously stressing out about how this will all turn out. Basically, I have the choice of someone seeing me practically naked and being bombarded with radiation or being sexually assaulted. What a wonderful effing country we live in, eh? Oh, wait. According to you, I also have the choice of spending 4 to 6 days of my 7 day vacation driving halfway across the country to avoid all this.