What does the Declaration of Independence mean to you?

I'm from England and today read the Declaration of Independence for the first time. I would love to hear the opinions of some US citizens about what they feel this document means to them, and more importantly do you still believe in it's values?

A lot of what is written in there with regards to the right for freedom, life and the pursuit of happiness, and especially the specific reasons outlined for YOU to have the right to overthrow or replace the government if they are not looking out for the best interests of the population, seems to be very scarily relevant to the current situation (or at least from an outsiders viewpoint) with regards to what the current US government is doing.

With reasons that seem to be applicable with the government doing things such as spying on communications of it's citizens, making deals with regards to the essentials of life (such as gas, oil, food etc) based purely on how much money they can make, rather than getting the best deals for it's citizens, and sending it's citizens on wars that are not justified and lying about the reasons for sending hundreds of thousands of citizens to be injured and killed surely a great deal of these actions would be justifiable to overthrow or replace the government as is stated as your god given right. Not to mention turning a considerable amount of foreign countries against the US, when it is simply the governments actions that are doing this, rather than the views of the populace.

Plus you then have the very sus appointment of Bush being elected despite the huge polls against him and outright cries of it being fixed.

And of course there is then the whole 9/11 debate (and pentagon lies) which I won't even go into.

Do you believe that this would be a justified reason to overthrow the government, or what would be a justifiable reason, and if one did arise would it ever be possible in todays world?

I'd love to hear peoples opinions on this, and it is not meant in anyway as an personal attack against the country, so if I have offended anyone it was not my intention, I'm just very curious to know peoples stand points and views on this.

Thanks for your time, and hope everyone had a great Independence day

I don't recite it when asked. I think it's a violation of church and state for one thing, and for another, I refuse to pledge alliegance to a flag that represents illegal wars, 9-11, the current state of our economy, the corporate coup of the government, the corruption of the entire system, the lack of care of it's citizens, and many more violations to the people, countries, of and to this planet. I am a US citizen.

Well, it means nothing to me now as apparently we are no longer living by it.

2nd line.

reply to post by crezo


I just wanted to add something to your post... did you know the stars and stripes where hoisted above a Sussex town, and declaration of independence read! they declared themselves the 24th state of the Union, and it took 7 years for the crown inquisition to reclaim the land for the crown.. The area is still called "The America Ground" today.. While a couple of years ago the American Consul re-read and as such reaffirmed the decalaration of independence in the town..

reply to post by missvicky


This was kind of my thinking in posting this. It seams a huge amount of people (especially on ATS) don't believe the country is being run by the very things set out as god given rights when the country had it's independence. And from everything you have just stated (I completely agree by the way), do you not feel you have the right as citizens to therefore legally overthrow your government?

How of course you would go about doing this is a whole different argument, but hypothetically?

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
reply to post by crezo

 

I just wanted to add something to your post... did you know the stars and stripes where hoisted above a Sussex town, and declaration of independence read! they declared themselves the 24th state of the Union, and it took 7 years for the crown inquisition to reclaim the land for the crown.. The area is still called "The America Ground" today.. While a couple of years ago the American Consul re-read and as such reaffirmed the decalaration of independence in the town..

I didn't know that. Wow.

edit on 29/11/10 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)

it doesn't matter. the crown was always riding shotgun in the background on its intended enterprise.

It's as relevant today, as it was on the day it was first read in the streets of Philadelphia.

The Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

What's not relevant about that paragraph? It speaks to all people everywhere, in every era in history, who have been, are being, will be oppressed by a govt bent on tyranny. To say otherwise is to ignore, willfully, man's innate need to be free of stricture imposed from outside his/her own conscience, and be free to follow, within reason, the dictates of his own soul.

That is what the signers of the Declaration were saying. It is the right, or perhaps more strongly, the duty of a people to alter, or to dissolve, any form of govt that refuses by intent to bow to the words, or even whim, of the governed.

What's not relevant?

The Declaration is, to me, a beacon to freedom.

reply to post by missvicky


Apparently in the small village, they set up their own border patrols and require visas to get in ! Also the police have no authority there too, could make for an interesting place to live. Assuming of course they all pay enough tax to keep the roads and sewer systems still working, or just do a bit of hefty DIY.

That's certainly one way to handle things when you believe the government are bunch of corrupt ****s

This document forged America's sovereign claim to the colonies that would become the United States. Its philosophy is that each individual is born with the right to control their own destiny without interference from a ruling party. The premise is that if you are born Jones you have the oppportunity to enjoy the same liberties as if you were born Rockofeller.
This of course was directed and written to the King of England appointed to the crown through birthright and chosen by God to be a better man than any other.
The Declaration of Independence is a relic. archived in a fancy museum.... its message lost to history that is manipulated to suit the interest of the corporate powers of what was once a great nation.
Recent history shows that the government no longer serves at the consent of the governed, the people of the
United States are ruled by an elite class, taxed to fund social programs that feed, house, fund, and support a class that has the same opportunity to make a living for themselves as anyone but chooses not to, forced to relinquish a portion of earnings to a retirement account any novice investor would run away from screaming. Forced to be insured, forced to be documented, unless of course you are in the country illegally, taxed on income, taxed on fuel, taxed on goods and services, and forced to report all earnings to a corrupt accounting organization that will decide if you have payed enough tax. Can anyone say "Taxation without representation"?

The Decleration of Independence is document written with the influence of divinity, whatever name you give to your creator, it is the explanation of mans equality to man and the individual right to choose ones destiny without interference. It is a shame that in this generation its meaning is lost and that the fathers of the revolution and their cause have been lost in time.

reply to post by crezo


I view the Declaration of Independence as a view into the ideals and mentalities of the founders of the U.S..

It gives us the foundational directive for how to read the Constitution. All writings are subject to the perceptions of the reader, but in the Declaration we have a lens that is shaped and colored by the writers themselves, so that we may view our foundational legal documents in the fashion that they were intended to be viewed.

I realize that the world is a different place now but I feel that the fundamental ideals that were presented in the founding documents are of the nature that they can and should, be our guiding principles today and in the future.

Freedom and the sacrifices it requires were meant to be a sort of national religion really. We were not meant to be altering the documents for our safety or convenience.

The methods used to gain safety or prosperity our justice, MUST be made to work within the framework of those documents. Those documents MUST NOT be made to conform the convenience of the aforementioned.

The problem with the declaration of independence is that it does not define how "consent" is to be demonstrated.

Today, most people assume consent means "votes" in a democratic election.

They assume people "consent" to be governed by the majority simply by their existence within the country.

This, of course, is ridiculous.

The rule of law (property rights) over-rides any tyranny of the majority and the proper way for "votes" to be cast is with voluntary funding of government in a market.

We take for granted that businesses who do not meet the market's needs go bankrupt and get run out of business. The same should apply to government as well.

"Consent" of the governed must necessarily mean voluntary funding of government in a market. If government is holding a gun to my head and taking my money by force, it obviously does not have my consent to do so.

"Consent" means I voluntarily pay for government out of my own pocket, just as I voluntarily pay for shoes out of my own pocket. I pay for it when I need it.

reply to post by seagull


Excellent post!! I agree that the Declaration is as important today as it was the date it was first signed. I might even argue that it is more important today given the current state of affairs in the US.

I look at the fact that those who founded this nation were under less tyranny than we are and yet we continue to allow it even though we have a two century old template on what they felt necessary to do to achieve their independence.

I don't think a violent revolution is necessary to achieve our independence. We first need to eradicate the Federal Reserve and put the power of coining money back where it Constitutionally belongs.

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” - - Thomas Jefferson

Given the current foreclosure rates in the US, it seems Jefferson knew what he was talking about. Considering that many of the foreclosures are being shown as fraudulent due to the nefarious way corporations have conducted the foreclosure processes, it really looks as though Jefferson was a prophet.

reply to post by crezo


I am a big fan of the DoI as it was drafted 'by the people for the people' to sever the tyrannical ties of the King George oppressor (King of England AND France at the same time). The colonists had enough of the barbarism and harsh diplomacy of the nation they fled. It's too bad this document was trumped by the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution. The DoI focused on independence and individuality of a new nation without the chains of an oppressive government and military complex. Just like the last lines of the Pledge of Alliegance said "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

reply to post by OuttaTime


Not so much trumped as augmented. I don't think the founding fathers intended the Constitution to supercede the DofI, as much as to augment and explain how the Declaration should be enforced. If that makes any sense whatsoever...

I think, though I may be wrong, that all three documents were intended to work together in the furtherance of our freedoms.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by OuttaTime

 

Not so much trumped as augmented. I don't think the founding fathers intended the Constitution to supercede the DofI, as much as to augment and explain how the Declaration should be enforced. If that makes any sense whatsoever...

I think, though I may be wrong, that all three documents were intended to work together in the furtherance of our freedoms.

I could agree with you in the basic principle of the face value of the 3 documents, and that we are privy to the mandates in the Constitution and it's illusionary perception. I agree the founding fathers felt accomplished in the DoI as a prevailing accord.
I would think it is a matter of interpretation. I did a bit of research on the Constitution and have decided it was a doublespeak document. It is basically a contract of debt to King George. There appears to be 2 sides to the Constitution whereas there is a marginal difference between 'The United States' and 'The United States of America' . The United States is a corporate representation of foreign government bunkered down in DC. I wrote an article about this a while back in this blog . I was dumbfounded after gathering this info and putting the puzzle together. It's a bit old but still quite accurate.

reply to post by seagull

It's as relevant today, as it was on the day it was first read in the streets of Philadelphia....

I agree.

I also think that is the main reason the Tea Party formed AND the main reason the propaganda outlets of our tyrants (the mainstream media) have tried to divide the citizens with their slurs on the Tea Party and co-opt it into the Republican party.

The biggest divider of course is declaring the Tea Party "RACIST" It started as early as April 13 2009 with The Rotting Racist Underbelly of the Tea Party Protests by Jill Tubman There are 1,930,000 hits on Google for tea party racism. Here is a quote from Real Clear Politics:

The first African-American president takes office, and almost immediately we see the birth of a big, passionate national movement -- overwhelmingly white and lavishly funded -- that tries its best to delegitimize that president, seeks to thwart his every initiative, and manages to bring the discredited and moribund opposition party roaring back to life. Coincidence?

Not a chance.

Isn't this guy missing the point that the money supply over DOUBLE in the first three months that Obama was in office - effectively cutting your paycheck and saving in half once the money makes it into the economy (See Mises on Money for explanation) Not to mention Obama sealing all his records.

He is correct that

There's an obvious answer, but it's one that generally comes from the progressive end of the political spectrum: Americans must fight to take back their government from the lobbyists and big-money special interests that shape our laws to suit their own interests, not for the good of the nation.

That may be what some tea partiers have in mind, but the movement hasn't seen fit to make campaign finance reform one of its major issues. And the establishment Republicans who are surfing the tea party wave -- while at the same time scheming to co-opt the movement -- would view the idea of taking money out of politics with horror, if they thought it might actually happen.

So why the heck is he trashing the movement Why aren't he and his black brothers saying to the Tea Party group "HEY, Your right our government need major reform. What about these ideas?"

Those people in the Tea party movement HATE the Fed and the big money politics so where is the problem?

This is part of the Eight Steps To Destroy America

'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: (First) ;"Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual....

"United we stand, divided we fall, Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs." - Patrick Henry, Last Public Speech Before His Death, March 4, 1799

As a Brit you can see what the Muslim/Shari law faction is doing to your country. As long as TPTB can keep us fighting each other we are in no position to threaten them.

No I am not a member of the Tea Party. But as far as I can see it started out as an actual grassroots organization. On the other hand it could be a typical TPTB strategy move - give people something to join that TPTB controls and effectively keeps them spinning their wheels. Something that can be used by TPTB to support MORE Unconstitutional legislation just like that did with another grassroots organization - Greenpeace.

...the declaration of independence is an old part of an on-going cancerous propaganda program... the fact that so many people still believe it has positive value explains why we are so deep into craps creek today...

Questioning....what do you believe in, how would you describe core values, justice, equality, national pride? What is the definition of propoganda and who defines it.
This antiquated piece of paper opened the door for freedom to create, think independently, innovate, invent, change the status quo.
Without this document you would not have the opportunity to freely enter debate regarding your belief structure. As an American you would be indentured to a man with a crown, a man, like any other man, created equally with any other. Your expression of freedom of belief and speech is appreciated and welcomed to the debate, or am I spreading propoganda?
Without an appreciation for ancestry ther is no base for knowing one's self or developing a belief system that is worth defending. These truths are self evident.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...the declaration of independence is an old part of an on-going cancerous propaganda program... the fact that so many people still believe it has positive value explains why we are so deep into craps creek today...

Who can argue with declaring all men equal?? The finest ideas of men are enshrined in these documents the principles are as valid today as in the 1770's!

The declaration of independence is just the document delivered to king George informing him the reason for us to split off from under his rule. it was not "SUPERCEDED"by anything. Tthe constitution presents a format for the federal govt of the newly liberated colonies.All this "of "and "for"duality B.s,.is madeup b.s .There is no cryptic or hidden dual purposes in the words. It was not intended to answer every question facing the govt but provides a philosophy; limits; and guidelines for it to operateandmakethose decisions. If it's principles are followed without mischief it provides themostpractical; fair; humanitarin system of govt.