mother teresa and most religious groups are frauds

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Zamini

 

Well said, I'm sick and tired of Teresa being used as a poster girl in the history of Christian "charity".

Anyway, you don't have to be religious or even spiritual to perform acts of charity or kindness, you don't need dogma as the motive either.

i prefer to give directly - so there is no middle man if possible

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I met Mother Teresa back in the mid 1980s.

She did a lot of good work for a lot of poor people. She did the best she could with what she had - having to work in poor conditions with poor quality supplies. She accepted donations from people because the poor needed the help. She publically thanked them for the donations ... and left the judgements of those people giving the donations to God. All the while she was helping people, she was having a spiritual 'Dark Night of the Soul' .. doubting God's love .. but she kept on going and kept on helping as best as she knew how.

Ya'll are critical of her for seeking medical attention for her illness'.
She got medical help. So what?
She couldn't fly every sick poor person to a fantastic overseas clinic.
That would be impossible.

People donated airline tickets and medical care to her so that she could get better to continue her work to help others. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's admirable. By them helping this one person, they really helped all those that she went out and helped in turn.

If you want to say most religious groups and preachers are frauds ... that's fine. I'd agree with that. But I don't see any evidence to support that charge against Mother Teresa.

you need to read more on the subject because you are not getting it

Mother Teresa had huge donations and had the means to do more for the people

at her acceptance speech for the nobel peace prize [which is a lot of money] she mentioned how much it will help at her hospital but the problem is that she does not have a hospital. She founded 250 new convents with the money so that means she bought 250 buildings that could house nuns etc. She could have built a brand new hospital for the money from the nobel peace prize. and equip it with the latest and best medical machines.

a lot of what happened was media hype alas and she is not known in calcutta as someone the poor can count on.

ALL man-made organized religions are FALSE because none are of 100% Truth, though they claim to reveal God's word in truth. Those also, that worship any god other than Yahweh - also FALSE. That means that every man-made organized religion existing in the world today is FALSE.

Yahweh's Message to the so-called Christian churches that claim to reveal Yahweh’s Word in truth:

Revelation 2:23 "I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works."

They are cursed especially for their lying conduct in reference to Yahweh and Christ. Remember when Yahweh killed the first born males of ancient Egypt? Now He will kill the children of Satan that make up the false churches.

1 Chronicles 21:27 "Then the LORD spoke to the angel, and he put his sword back into its sheath."

The only way this will happen is if they repent and accept Yahweh for who He really is - in Truth.

Otherwise, those churches professing to be true Christians will go the way of the rest of cursed mankind.

Revelation 2:11 "Anyone who has an ear should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor will never be harmed by the second death."

Re AginaAdonnaAaron

First of all, your post has very little to do with the topic of this thread, but is one of the usual irrelevant sermons, which only the already saved can have any possible benefit from. If you and your 'true christian' fellows (probably opposed to all 'non-true' christian denominations, according to whatever weird definitions you have) are in such a need of this sanctimoneous exchange of repetitive holiness, you would probably be left more to your own, if you did it amongst yourselves.

Here you are exposed to criticism, sarcasm, opposition and ridicule, and apart from the common christian extremist need of suffering as martyrs (so you can get bonus-points to heaven), I can only see one point in your presence here in the form you present it: MISSIONING.

As I've said before, there's probably no possible communication outside the holy bubble for people like you, and you'll most likely carry your circular argumentation with you through all life. So when I recommend you to take some good looks at 'South Park' (a satirical TV-series in case you don't know it), it's not to change you, but to make you aware of how a growing amount of non-believers see you and your ilk. Maybe you could learn how to respond adequately.

Secondly: If you, inside the frame of fundie christianity, still want to catch any souls, your message of bloodthirst, fire-and-brimstone and monomaniac megalomania is a few hundreds centuries out-of-date.

Try to get even remotely back to what we're talking about.

reply to post by bogomil


Hey Bogo,

That's very unfortunate what happened to you and your attempted charity work. Indeed a lesson that shows the need for critical examination before giving away any money. There are so many leeches that live off the good will of people - quite a sad thing too.

Of course it is little bit unfair to label all of 'christian charities' as leeches and hoaxters. No doubt there are also some good and real philanthropists amongst the christians as well. Perhaps it is then a needful lesson for people in order to show them that talk is often... well... just talk.

Would I suddenly become rich, I think I wouldn't give money in any charity, but perhaps go there and help someone myself. Now I don't have many opportunities to travel around helping people as I don't have money to do so. I just try to share my money locally. It doesn't matter if the receiver is a fellow citizen of relatively rich country, or some poor family in Afghanistan. And it doesn't really matter if I give my money away - it is just something that I don't need much, perhaps someone else needs it more. There is no good will in that. When ever I give away money or otherwise help someone, and find myself congrulating myself for a good deed done, I slap my face.

-v

I think this is why Veterans Affairs has seeked out Nurse Practitioners of the Ba-hai faith to work for them.

Ba-Hai is a Islamic spin off. If you are in pain or suffering they believe "Allah wills it". Hence Veterans Affairs is saving the Federal Government a ton of money refusing to give people pain medication.


In America everyone has religious freedom. It just sickens me that Veterans Affairs did this. They even allow that guy to put up religious crap in his cluttered dirty office.

Religion is a tool used to pilfer from the populace. Nothing more. The fact they can save the Federal Government money treating our Veterans.....you bet they exploited that and put certain religious factions into areas where it would save money. Why not use our "religious freedom"....against us????

reply to post by megabyte

you need to read more on the subject because you are not getting it Mother Teresa had huge donations and had the means to do more for the people at her acceptance speech for the nobel peace prize [which is a lot of money] she mentioned how much it will help at her hospital but the problem is that she does not have a hospital. She founded 250 new convents with the money so that means she bought 250 buildings that could house nuns etc. She could have built a brand new hospital for the money from the nobel peace prize. and equip it with the latest and best medical machines. a lot of what happened was media hype alas and she is not known in calcutta as someone the poor can count on.

One hospital in one place in the world that can only help so many people at a time, or 250 convents all over the world , where the nuns can go and help masses in the area......

Sounds like she made the right choice, it might not be pretty but thats the most effective way to help the most people at the same time......

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by megabyte

 

you need to read more on the subject because you are not getting it Mother Teresa had huge donations and had the means to do more for the people at her acceptance speech for the nobel peace prize [which is a lot of money] she mentioned how much it will help at her hospital but the problem is that she does not have a hospital. She founded 250 new convents with the money so that means she bought 250 buildings that could house nuns etc. She could have built a brand new hospital for the money from the nobel peace prize. and equip it with the latest and best medical machines. a lot of what happened was media hype alas and she is not known in calcutta as someone the poor can count on.

One hospital in one place in the world that can only help so many people at a time, or 250 convents all over the world , where the nuns can go and help masses in the area......

Sounds like she made the right choice, it might not be pretty but thats the most effective way to help the most people at the same time......

with bleach being so cheap why then did the sisters of mother teresa's order not sterilise needles properly?

www.miraclesceptic.com...

Mother Teresa amassed huge donations for the order and made no effort to make sure that the nuns used clean needles when they injected. She wouldn’t supply them. The Order she ran is so much like an extreme religious cult.

and

Mother had 50 million dollars in the New York bank alone and yet the order greedily solicited for money. This was the order that used the same syringe on many sick patients under the pretext of hard times. The money shouldn’t have been lying in accounts. Every penny should have been used.

from

articles.sfgate.com...


Why accuse her of unscientific ministering if she sees her primary job as bringing people closer to God through unrelieved suffering?

end of quote

she and her order did not help the suffering - she wanted those she 'helped' to suffer the most possible because that was the way to get closer to Jesus

and another quote

She recalls, according to Hitchens, that "the sisters were rarely allowed to spend money on the poor they were trying to help. Instead they were forced to plead poverty, thus manipulating generous, credulous people and enterprises into giving more goods, services and cash."
The result was an invisible fortune. "Around $50 million had collected in one checking account in the Bronx. . . . Those of us who worked in the office regularly understood that we were not to speak about our work. The donations rolled in and were deposited in the bank, but they had no effect on our ascetic lives or on the lives of the poor we were trying to help."

end of quote

so all those who wanted to help mother teresa help the poor - they donated and mother teresa refused to use a cent of those donation to help the poor and suffering because he mission was to make sure the poor and ill suffered as much as possible so that they would be with jesus faster

that is the problem of mother teresa - the world thought she would use the zillions of dollars to help people - feed the poor or to give medication to the poor

the world did not understand that mother teresa's main belief was to help the suffering get to jesus faster through as much suffering and pain as possible

mother teresa's main goal was never ever to alleviate any suffering whatsoever - it was to make sure there was maximum suffering

reply to post by megabyte

The convents are where the nuns lived who did the nursing. The nuns lived there and, from their 'home' in the convent, would go out into the streets and help those who were in the streets. They took medicine and food with them. They worked in over crowded places in which a hospital building would be impossible. Have you seen the streets in Calcutta? It's healthier for the nuns, who were acting nurses, to take the medicine to the people rather than for the people to crowd into a building.

Without convents, there would have been no room for the nuns ... who are those who do the caregiving. You've gotta' house them or there isn't any care giving. It all goes together.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
One hospital in one place in the world that can only help so many people at a time, or 250 convents all over the world , where the nuns can go and help masses in the area......

Exactly.

Originally posted by megabyte
with bleach being so cheap why then did the sisters of mother teresa's order not sterilise needles properly?

Cheap and available to you .. not necessarily cheap and available in the slums of calcutta or the middle of nowhere africa. And don't forget, the nuns are trying to help and aren't an army of college trained nurses. They are people trying to help others the best that they can.

BTW ... health care around the world, including the USA, isn't what you think it is.
Death by Medical Mistake
Using your logic ... why are all these people (myself included), being misdiagnosed and given the wrong drugs? Why are so many people (myself included), suffering worse at the hands of 'educated' doctors in modern day cities .. doctors and hospitals that have access to all the latest medical information and goods? Mother Teresa's nuns didn't do any worse then what I've experienced right here in America. They re-used needles after doing their best to clean them in horrid conditions ... but doctors here misdiagnos and give the wrong drugs and give drugs that shouldn't be given at all .... same thing just in a different package.

Originally posted by megabyte
the world did not understand that mother teresa's main belief was to help the suffering get to jesus faster through as much suffering and pain as possible mother teresa's main goal was never ever to alleviate any suffering whatsoever - it was to make sure there was maximum suffering

That's an absurd twist on her words. Looking at what she and her nuns do and the comfort they give the dying, that twist is completely absurd.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by megabyte

 

The convents are where the nuns lived who did the nursing. The nuns lived there and, from their 'home' in the convent, would go out into the streets and help those who were in the streets. They took medicine and food with them. They worked in over crowded places in which a hospital building would be impossible. Have you seen the streets in Calcutta? It's healthier for the nuns, who were acting nurses, to take the medicine to the people rather than for the people to crowd into a building.

Without convents, there would have been no room for the nuns ... who are those who do the caregiving. You've gotta' house them or there isn't any care giving. It all goes together.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
One hospital in one place in the world that can only help so many people at a time, or 250 convents all over the world , where the nuns can go and help masses in the area......

Exactly.

Originally posted by megabyte
with bleach being so cheap why then did the sisters of mother teresa's order not sterilise needles properly?

Cheap and available to you .. not necessarily cheap and available in the slums of calcutta or the middle of nowhere africa. And don't forget, the nuns are trying to help and aren't an army of college trained nurses. They are people trying to help others the best that they can.

BTW ... health care around the world, including the USA, isn't what you think it is.
Death by Medical Mistake
Using your logic ... why are all these people (myself included), being misdiagnosed and given the wrong drugs? Why are so many people (myself included), suffering worse at the hands of 'educated' doctors in modern day cities .. doctors and hospitals that have access to all the latest medical information and goods? Mother Teresa's nuns didn't do any worse then what I've experienced right here in America. They re-used needles after doing their best to clean them in horrid conditions ... but doctors here misdiagnos and give the wrong drugs and give drugs that shouldn't be given at all .... same thing just in a different package.

Originally posted by megabyte
the world did not understand that mother teresa's main belief was to help the suffering get to jesus faster through as much suffering and pain as possible mother teresa's main goal was never ever to alleviate any suffering whatsoever - it was to make sure there was maximum suffering

That's an absurd twist on her words. Looking at what she and her nuns do and the comfort they give the dying, that twist is completely absurd.

from

www.naturalthinker.net...


The needles they used and re-used over and over and over and you would see some of the nuns rinsing needles under the cold water tap. And I asked one of the why she was doing it and she said: 'Well to clean it.' And I said, 'Yes, but why are you not sterilising it; why are you not boiling water and sterilising your needles?' She said: 'There's no point. There's no time.'


The point is not the honest relief of suffering but the promulgation of a cult based on death and suffering and subjection. Mother Teresa (who herself, it should be noted, has checked into some of the finest and costliest clinics and hospitals in the West during her bouts with heart trouble and old age) once gave this game away in a filmed interview. She described a person who was in the last agonies of cancer and suffering unbearable pain. With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told this terminal patient:

'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.'


and from

www.amazon.com...


"Volunteers (from Italy, Sweden, the United States and the UK) did their best to cradle and wash the children who had soiled themselves. But there were no nappies, and only cold water. Soap and disinfectant were in short supply. Workers washed down beds with dirty water and dirty cloths. Food was prepared on the floor in the corridor. A senior member of staff mixed medicine with her hands. Some did their best to give love and affection - at least some of the time. But, for the most part, the care the children received was inept, unprofessional and, in some cases, rough and dangerous. `They seem to be warehousing people rather than caring for them,' commented the former operations director of Mencap Martin Gallagher, after viewing our undercover footage."

This is the best care that millions of charity dollars could afford? No money even for soap and diapers?

Mother Teresa's entire attitude towards money seems rather odd. Apparently it is virtuous to give, as long as the giving is to the Catholic Church (and never even reaches the poor) and regardless of how the funds given were obtained. Charles Keating, a sort of Bernie Madoff of the 80's, donated 1.25 million dollars to Mother Teresa in return for the respectability of being associated with her. When Keating was tried in 1992 Mother Teresa wrote to the court asking clemency for him. Hitchens reproduces her letter to the judge on p. 67. It it she says that Keating "has always been kind and generous to God's poor" and asks the judge "to do what Jesus would do."

to those who think bleach was too expensive or simply hard to get in India

www.highbeam.com...


Unbranded products in bleach are widely available in India and they are used in rural households to clean floors and toilets but in urban households, in which consumers use a variety of different flooring materials, such as hardwood and marble, bleach is not used as it is not suitable for cleaning such surfaces owing to the damage it can cause.


end of quote

so there you have it - bleach is cheap in India and they use it to wash their floors - except Mother Teresa who believed in makign the ill suffer as much as possible because that means Jesus is kissing you and it ensures you a place in heaven

so under the guise of helping poor and ill people to ease their suffering Mother Teresa's order as actually seeking donations but never intending to lift a finger to REALLY help ease suffering because that way they would deny those in pain to be kissed by Jesus

in fact they were working as hard as possible to have as many people 'kissed by Jesus' as possible through as much pain and suffering as they could

Originally posted by megabyte
She said: 'There's no point. There's no time.'

Like I said, they are poor nuns, most of whom have had no education in this matter. We can't judge them by what we know. We (the world) should be helping them. What they are trying to do - with their limited abilities - is wonderful (IMHO). As for the 'there's no point' .. the nuns probably thought the people were going to die anyways. Nuns are human beings and they get tired and frustrated too. They aren't perfect and neither are we.

Mother Teresa (who herself, it should be noted, has checked into some of the finest and costliest clinics and hospitals in the West during her bouts with heart trouble and old age)

As I said ... her hospital stays and airline tickets, etc, were all donated to her. So what?

She described a person who was in the last agonies of cancer and suffering unbearable pain. With a smile, Mother Teresa told the camera what she told this terminal patient: 'You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you.'

This is an old Catholic belief .. if you are in your final sufferings and faithful to God then you are 'Christ-like' and look more like Christ at that time then any other in your life. My own belief is that we should have legalized doctor assisted suicide for any adult on the planet that wants it. But her belief, and the belief of those who are giving comfort to those who are dying, is that at that point in their life, they are christ-like and loved by God. (see my thread - 'is God a deadbeat dad' for my views on that - you can probably already see what it is by the title of my thread)

This is the best care that millions of charity dollars could afford? No money even for soap and diapers?

Donation money is never enough to cover everything - everywhere.

Apparently it is virtuous to give, as long as the giving is to the Catholic Church (and never even reaches the poor) and regardless of how the funds given were obtained.

Um .. when did she say that money had to be given only to the Catholic Church? Considering she ran a charity (and the Charity isn't the Church), that would seem to make your statement wrong. I'd like to see a quote stating that she only wanted charity going to the Catholic Church. That people couldn't help the poor unless it was through the Catholic church. Thanks.

When Keating was tried in 1992 Mother Teresa wrote to the court asking clemency for him. Hitchens reproduces her letter to the judge on p. 67. It it she says that Keating "has always been kind and generous to God's poor" and asks the judge "to do what Jesus would do."

So? She was asking for mercy for someone who had been kind to the poor. I don't see the problem here. Really. She did much the same about Princess Diana. People were hard on her but she only spoke the 'good that people need to hear' and told folks that Princess Diana was charitable. It's a Catholic teaching (not followed by many) .. and it's in scripture ... 'speak only the good that people need to hear'. If Mother Teresa had honed in on the bad that Keating had done, she would have just been negative. the bad was already known. She reminded people of the good. It's a nunish thing to do.

Originally posted by megabyte
in fact they were working as hard as possible to have as many people 'kissed by Jesus' as possible through as much pain and suffering as they could

If that were the case, that they wanted people to suffer as much as possible, then she would not have started the order and none of the nuns would be self sacrificing to go out each day to comfort the dying. There would have been MORE suffering without the order.

the problem is that just as in Islam in some circles it is believed that if you kill an infidel that is a shortcut to heaven

in Catholic circles it is a belief that the more you suffer pain and hardship the better as that is a shortcut to heaven

Mother Teresa put on a show of helping the suffering to get maximum donation dollar but in actual fact she was practising her belief - that people who are suffering should be allowed to suffer because that is a shortcut to heaven

she did not believe she should suffer the same as the people she was making sure suffered

for some reason when it came to her pain - she preferred that she was taken care of in the best hospitals. She would never ever consider the care that her order gave to the sick and suffering to be good enough for her and she obviously believed that being kissed by jesus in the form of suffering was only desireable for others. For herself she wanted least pain and suffering and so she chose best treatments.

please read more widely about this issue because you are bying in to the hype and publicity and making excuses rather than allowing yourself to see it from another point of view

cheers

Originally posted by megabyte
in Catholic circles it is a belief that the more you suffer pain and hardship the better as that is a shortcut to heaven

In old Catholic circles .. definately. And yes, she was part of that old Catholic belief system.
Accept the suffering God sends .. it's for a reason .. try to help it but if you can't, then accept it.
But honestly, I'm just not seeing her trying to cause more suffering.
Sorry megabyte ... just can't see it.

reply to post by megabyte


You're kidding me right? So what you're suggesting is Mother Theresa was a shame because she got the best treatment? Even though she owned nothing and dedicated her time and effort to help others. She was a sham?

I also hear what you're saying. Church's make way too much money for the service they provide. They don't, usually, feed the needy and live a pretty good life.

It isn't just religious people. You are making it seem like religious people are doing it for the glory and yet you fail to mention Atheists. What have they contributed to the world which makes you only bash on religious people and not humanity in itself?

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by megabyte

 

You're kidding me right? So what you're suggesting is Mother Theresa was a shame because she got the best treatment? Even though she owned nothing and dedicated her time and effort to help others. She was a sham?

I also hear what you're saying. Church's make way too much money for the service they provide. They don't, usually, feed the needy and live a pretty good life.

It isn't just religious people. You are making it seem like religious people are doing it for the glory and yet you fail to mention Atheists. What have they contributed to the world which makes you only bash on religious people and not humanity in itself?

not exactly

what I am saying is - research well before parting with donation dollar because some charities or religious groups etc may not be what they seem

with new religious groups led by tele-evangelists to the old and well established such as Catholic Church - you just dont know what they are really doing with the donation dollar and if their core belief is the same as yours

did you watch the Da Vinci code based movies? were you shocked about the Opus Dei and their practice of causing pain to themselves etc?

just research well before donating to anyone because there is a lot more than meets the eye and there is a lot of disinformation there to make people donate to these groups.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by megabyte
This is an old Catholic belief .. if you are in your final sufferings and faithful to God then you are 'Christ-like' and look more like Christ at that time then any other in your life. My own belief is that we should have legalized doctor assisted suicide for any adult on the planet that wants it. But her belief, and the belief of those who are giving comfort to those who are dying, is that at that point in their life, they are christ-like and loved by God. (see my thread - 'is God a deadbeat dad' for my views on that - you can probably already see what it is by the title of my thread)

This is the best care that millions of charity dollars could afford? No money even for soap and diapers?

Donation money is never enough to cover everything - everywhere.



you said donation money is never enough but Mother Teresa had over $50 million in her accounts. The Nobel peace Prize she got would have build a modern hospital and staffed it for 10 years and equipped it with the most modern of everything

and with that she could not afford some cheap bleach to disinfect needles and floors? this in a country that most people use bleach to disinfect their floors in their own homes?

of course if you dont want to be that discerning with your donation dollar I can always give you my bank account number

I would love some donated money because I need some expensive IVF treatment so anyone wanting my bank account details to donate to my worthey cause - let me know

I promise the money will be spent exactly as I state and that I do not have any secret agenda and am not over exaggerating my case to gain more sympathy etc



otherwise my argument stands - do your own research before makign donations to any charity or religious group because there is a lot of misinformation about how your money may be used by that group.