Students face police in tuition fee protests..(They're at it again)

reply to post by Doyle


Protesting is pointless now. Identify yourselves with patches(pins) symbolic of your cause. Wear them at all times and with the recognition of the symbol in the streets will come awareness and a movement. You must use modern methodology to promote something. Use their methods since they spent millions to billions developing them and are proven.

The best would be to choose an established symbol readily had. Like rage against the machine tried to use a red star.

eg. The Poppy = Rememberence day. ***I would use the poppy as my international symbol of discontent with the way things are progressing; symbolic of remembering what we once had and feel we are losing. While supporting the legions and memory of the very thing our grandparents fought for.

POWER IS KNOWING YOU STAND UNITED AND ARE NOT ALONE.

The two explosions were fireworks or flares from what I gather.

Well what is easier, getting thousands of students/faculty a sit down meeting with the heads of state to discuss and compromise the issues with a clear and immediate response from said heads of state.. or get a couple thousand frustrated, upset, and disenfranchised students/faculty to go out into the streets and do what people in their situation do. Really what is more upsetting to me is the 'us vs. them' mentality of the police force. Police are citizens too and should be escorting the protesters to the people that can help mediate the issues. As far as the police van being vandalized it wouldn't surprise me if it was vandalized by plain clothes agents or is that only here in america?

What is wrong with the old fashioned stand up and talk to the crowds? I think that is a better way of spreading knowledge than some symbol. Branding ruined symbols as a form of protest, but free speech still exists in Britain.

I thought "kettling" was knocked on the hed after the G20 protests?

Theres a load being "contained" now, they are talking about bringing in water and toilets, so i guess those that are there will not be going anywhere soon.

CX.

Another mindless, pointless and ineffective protest.

There's nothing wrong with these people protesting, but the rent-a-mob followers who are looking for trouble are only going to alienate those that might be sympathetic with their cause.


Having said that, one police van being damaged hardly makes this ''protest'' anything other than a run-of-the-mill disturbance.

There was more trouble and violence than this when West Ham played Millwall in the League Cup a couple of seasons ago.

Kettling should have been abandoned after G20 yes. But if you look at the shot from the air on the BBC news live you can clearly see they are using that specific tactic. Sadly I can't copy/paste that for you but try tuning into BBC world news if you're not in UK or BBC news 24, or try the BBC iPlayer.

In addition students on the ground and news reporters have stated that people in certain areas of the protest have been boxed in and not allowed to leave.


The Education Secretary has just said that he thinks a lot of protestors on the ground are not protesting over fees but are 'extremist' groups deliberately causing trouble. Way to discredit the protest just as predicted only a page ago and its all over 1 police van getting damaged, which was clearly left alone as a suspiciously convenient target...

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


That is the trouble with these things if there was no violence at the first protest/riot, people not directly affected by the march would of been none the wiser. Just like people are none the wiser about the football violence that happens week in week out around the country. Is it just me or do these protests feel like a warm up for when there are mass redundancies and people get taken off benefits for refusing work!

reply to post by SparkyP


I know what you mean.

If they protested peacefully, then ''thousands of students march through London protesting against rise in tuition fees'' would barely make any headlines.

Violence makes the news, and consequently brings their protest to national attention. The problem is that violence and vandalism won't endear many people to them, especially if they are causing trouble near internationally recognised landmarks. Faffing about near the Cenotaph is just asking for trouble.


The other thing that doesn't go down too well is how the motivation for these student protests appears to be purely down to self-interest, rather than campaigning out of a deeper sense of social conscience.

Students are only protesting because they are personally being hit in the pocket, and considering that students don't have that healthy a general reputation amongst the non-student population, then I don't think that they'll be winning too many people over with these whinging, self-indulgent demonstrations.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


That is a very fair point. Students aren't seen in the best light but where does that stereotype come from? Just like the protest itself, it only takes a small group of people to tar everyone with the same brush. According to the organizers of the protest, people are taking a keen interest in protesting their own causes pensions, unemployment and redundancies. Should be interesting. In my opinion the police are now antagonizing the protesters. Why is it called 'Kettle'? Surely it should be Cattle!

reply to post by SparkyP


The stereotype of students largely comes from people who have actually met and socialised with them !

I find that most students on their own are alright, but when in groups, they tend to adopt a rather irritating and false persona.

They don't get much sympathy over hikes in tuition fees, because people are aware of how many of them waste their student loans on drink, drugs and partying.

If they were a little less frivolous with the money loaned to them that is intended to support their educational and living costs, then they might have more widespread support.


Also, making a fashion statement by having posters of Che Guevara or hanging the flag of the USSR in their student accommodation is not ''edgy'', '''daring'' or ''subversive''. Far from it; it is so hackneyed, that it's embarrassing.

The fact that the person they supposedly idolise was a mass-murdering racist homophobe, appears to be lost on them. Students who adopt this quasi-communist ideology are unwittingly becoming self-parodies and caricatures of themselves.

They are also displaying a lack of individuality and demonstrating an unoriginal herd-like mentality.

The irony being that those who attain degrees tend to forge careers that either directly or indirectly help ''the man''.

Originally posted by CX
See the state of that police van?

They'll probably torch that soon. They are saying they've looted it for all the body armour and protective gear.

Do these people forget that in a few days they'll be picked up after their pictures are strewn over the national newspapers?

CX.

They'll be ok - they will most likely be the paid police agitators.

second

I'm glad that this generation have got the balls to do some proper political protesting and certainly don't think the minority are spoiling for the rest.
If the students had sat down quietly in a nice organized way as people seem to want they would have been ignored completely, at least now they are drawing international attention to their cause and have the guts to get arrested for their beliefs.

In this case violence HAS achieved something, it's got them the publicity that they need. Wearing badges and holding signs doesn't achieve a damn thing.What would you have them do organize a leafleting campaign?

Originally posted by davespanners
I'm glad that this generation have got the balls to do some proper political protesting and certainly don't think the minority are spoiling for the rest.

Every generation has done political protesting, what makes this one any different ?

The difference I see is that almost all demonstrations these days seem to be done out of self-interest from people with an ''I'm alright Jack'' mentality.

These students are only concerned about the financial implications for themselves.

If they had a genuine social conscience, then they would be campaigning regularly about things that do not affect them personally. They're not, though.

Originally posted by davespanners
If the students had sat down quietly in a nice organized way as people seem to want they would have been ignored completely, at least now they are drawing international attention to their cause and have the guts to get arrested for their beliefs.

Yeah, like that guy who threw a fire extinguisher down towards the crowd below.

What a hero.

Originally posted by davespanners
In this case violence HAS achieved something, it's got them the publicity that they need. Wearing badges and holding signs doesn't achieve a damn thing.What would you have them do organize a leafleting campaign?

It has got them 15 minutes of fame, and all the publicity that they've achieved has been almost entirely negative.

Tuition fees will still rise, and these protests will ultimately achieve nothing, other than turning people in the country against these whinging students.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Who mentioned anyone being a hero? Oh it was just hyperbole I see

Do you really think that taking the right to affordable higher education from the populous is an issue that only effects "these people" it effects every generation that comes after them.

What do you suggest they do, sit around singing songs and smoking dope like their moms and dads did, that worked so effectively during their generation.
Not a single person has been killed or seriously injured during these protests.

The average student debt when leaving university is already £25000 and you think that their getting into that debt for a free party... Ok then

It strikes me that you wouldn't have much sympathy with them whatever they did as they are obviously all just spending their money on parties and your view of student life is obviously extremely over simplified and dare I say bigoted. At the very least incredibly ill informed

Originally posted by davespanners
Do you really think that taking the right to affordable higher education from the populous is an issue that only effects "these people" it effects every generation that comes after them.

It's not really unaffordable, is it ?

Not to mention that the level of tuition fees is not set in stone, so there's nothing to stop them being reduced or frozen in years to come.

The students are just upset that they'll have to fork out more of their money. They can always apply for a student loan, anyway.

Originally posted by davespanners
What do you suggest they do, sit around singing songs and smoking dope like their moms and dads did, that worked so effectively during their generation.
Not a single person has been killed or seriously injured during these protests.

I suggest that they attempt to change things through voting and effective political activism.

Violence is not ''effective political activism'', as it only serves to alienate the population and is counter-productive to their cause.

From my experience, most of the current generation of students spend their spare time smoking dope like their parents did...

Originally posted by davespanners
The average student debt when leaving university is already £25000 and you think that their getting into that debt for a free party... Ok then

It's just like an investment.

You pay money in, and if you are successful, you'll get more than you put in as a return on your investment.

£25,000 may sound like a lot of money, but on the successful completion of your university education you'll have attained the skills and qualities that should see you earning a salary that you would not have been likely to earn without this education.

There's no such thing as a free ride, and that should apply to students as well.

Originally posted by davespanners
It strikes me that you wouldn't have much sympathy with them whatever they did as they are obviously all just spending their money on parties and your view of student life is obviously extremely over simplified and dare I say bigoted. At the very least incredibly ill informed

LOL.

I've got lots of friends who were students, and spent a lot of time socialising with them when they were at university. This is how I got acquainted first-hand with their lifestyle, and found out that there was a lot of truth to the clichés surrounding it.

I lack sympathy for them, because they are protesting out of self-interest, rather than a social conscience.

I think the hike in tuition fees is a bit hefty, but it's nothing I'm going to lose too much sleep over.

Several of the protesters have been speaking on the BBC and SKY stating the truth; peaceful protest has clearly not worked.

Michael Gove defended the right to protest, stating that he was open to discussion on university fees and cuts, but was then asked on air if democratic protests were even relevant to his decision-making, and he categorically stated that no amount of peaceful protest would change their policy.

So, he says that people can protest and that he is willing to listen, but that the opinions of those people are not relevant. Basically, he's being politically correct and nothing more.

What annoys me more is that the slightest thing is being portrayed as "violence". I'm sorry, but a broken window in the middle of a large protest is not violence. These people should be ashamed of themselves for trying to demonize thousands because of a little minor scuffling.

And I agree that this is just the start. With economic collapse comes social disorder. As the "little people" start to pay more and feel their pockets emptying into the bankers bonuses the people will become more and more angry, and rightly so.

Bring on the bank runs and the fuel strikes. I'm looking forward to it. We need to reverse the stranglehold the corporations have on our countries and our economies. And a little voluntary austerity while we watch them all die slow and painful deaths will absolutely be preferable to what our governments have in mind.

I lack sympathy for them, because they are protesting out of self-interest, rather than a social conscience.

Shows how little you know.

90% of those protesting will never be affected by the tuition fee hike. They are protesting for their future kids, their siblings and the next generation of students.

There are tutors, parents and grand-parents protesting too.

The only ones protesting who you could claim have self-interest are the secondary school and sixth form kids.

reply to post by detachedindividual


You claim that it won't affect 90% of those protesters, then go on to mention parents, grandparents, siblings etc. all of whom have a vested interest in it. ie. self-interest.

If these protesters had a social conscience, then there would be regular protests and demonstrations in London against other government policies that don't directly or indirectly affect them. There aren't.

This is why I have no sympathy for them.

protests dont really work, it didnt last week, neither will this one. from what i saw on tv most of them will have names like tarquin and rupert. i lol'd when one mentioned 'revolution'.