Conspiracy theory about Islam.

Heya all,

For some time now, I've been thinking about the Islam, and the influence that this religion has on the world we live in, compared to the influence of my religion, Christianity.
I made a theory about what the Islam really is, and I am curious what you all think of it.

Note that this is just a theory, not something I am convinced of 100%, just a "could be" theory.
Let's try to stay on topic, there's loads of threads about wether Christianity is the one true religion or not, but this thread is about something else.
As for the theory:

As with everything coming from God, His holy book, the bible, was also copied by humans inspired by satan or demons to create yet another alternative to Christianity that contains a part of truth, but not all of it.
Half truth is a lie as well, and I think this applies to the Islam fully.

This starts making even more sense, if you think about the core-emotions that these religions consist of.
Christianity is all about grace and love, from God for us, and from us for eachother. Even when someone is wrong or evil, do not try to get your revenge, do not lose your mind in angryness, and do not be tempted to get your rights no matter what.

The Islam on the other hand, is infected by negative emotions entirely.
Angryness, agressiveness, fear, revenge and hate are not only the fuel of some of the extremists, but also the examples that Mohammed gives through his actions in the Koran. Fear of God, not expecting anything gracefull from the allmighty creator, just punishment if you do something wrong. A religion in which the God is focussed on flaws and mistakes, on your negative sides.

The way women are treated, the laws in countries with an Islamic regime, the close ties with criminal organisations that not only Al Qeueda has.(spelling?)

The final "proof" for my theory is the bombings.
I'm being told that the ones who do suicide bombings, are the extremists. The ones that have lost their mind and are brainwashed by darker, higher persons that have no real interest in following their religion.
Yet somehow, these bombings keep on going on.

A few losing their minds "for allah" would allready be quite a coincidence. I don't think this is about crazy people that lose their minds.
I also don't think that the ones that inspire these people to commit suicide in the most horrible way possible are not followers of the Islamic religion.

I think Satan/demons are the only forces in this world, capable of getting people to commit suicide in this horrible way on such a large scale.
With this I mean, satan/demons in the form of people that are in a demons' power, that convince other (weaker) human beings of fullfilling their "divine purpose".

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Jakko]

Those sound like the words of someone who has not studied Islam much at all.

Islam is a religion founded upon peace, not "angryness" or violence. The bombers are extremeists, every religion has them, Christians bomb planned parenthood offices in America and eachother in Northern Ireland. The extremeists in Islam do tend to take violent actions, which is deplorable, but if they hadn't gotten the shaft from the west for 2000 years maybe they'd like em better.

There is a lot of historical anger and resentment in the Middle East that many Americans do not understand, they see Christianity much the same way you were talking about Islam, as a violent intolerant religion. Much of this is due to the crusades and the occupation of the Middle East by western powers durring the Age of Imperialism.

It is true that there seem to be more extremeists in Islam than in Christianity, but this is probably due to the fact that Christian extremists usually have the power of a democracy to spread their voice and do not need to use vests made out of TNT. A quick google search would show the true number of hate-filled Chirstians to be much higher than one would think. These groups rail and rant about everything from hating homosexuals to hating openly calling for a revolution in America. Something needs to be done about the extremeists on both ends, the Saudis and other Middle Eastern power players need to crack down on extremeist clerics which are raising the youth of the area to become human wepons, and America should pass tougher hate crime laws like those of Canada and the EU.

But the prime problem that I have with your theory is that you presume Christianity to be superior, this is ethnocentrism my friend, and it does a great deal more to hurt your agrument that Islam is closed minded than to help it by being closed minded yourself.

Please though, take this oppertunity to get yourself a copy of the Koran and read it, peace starts with understanding.

Blessed Be
~Astral

TextChristianity is all about grace and love, from God for us, and from us for eachother. Even when someone is wrong or evil, do not try to get your revenge, do not lose your mind in angryness, and do not be tempted to get your rights no matter what.

You have to go back to the middle ages and research, because Christianity had an ogly past, and women were in the middle of it. And christianity was force just like radical Islam.

Good posts both.
It is true that some people who claim to be Christians do the most horrible things just like any other extremist, but there's a difference...

For example the KKK, claim they do Gods will as well, even though one look at the bible makes clear that what they do has nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever.

As for the history of Christians, I don't think the people that gave Christianity a bad name in those times, were people who were honestly believers of God and Jesus' teachings.
Their first priority was to get power/fame/money and they just abused Christianity to get to their goal.
For Islamic terrorist this is not the case. They truly believe in what they do, and do it, not for power/fame/money, but because they think this is what allah wants from them.

Originally posted by The Astral City
you presume Christianity to be superior, this is ethnocentrism my friend, and it does a great deal more to hurt your agrument that Islam is closed minded than to help it by being closed minded yourself.

Yes I do think Christianity is the one true religion, but isn't this supposed to be like this? I have seen God in action, it would be a little bit weird if I would treat my religion the same as all other religions in the most objective way possible.
I don't think this has anything to do with presuming to be superior to anyone, I am a sinner just like any other. But I do think in the past, people have been deceived and inspired by satan/demons to form new religions partly based on christianity, without accepting Jesus as saviour.

Christian terrorism may exist, but it's not even to be mentioned compared to the amount of violent and agressive Islamic terrorists that are in this world today.

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Jakko]

TextChristian terrorism may exist, but it's not even to be mentioned compared to the amount of violent and agressive Islamic terrorists that are in this world today.

The reason of Christianity and Islamic radicals is, that Christianity has become the most civilized countries religion and human rights play a role in Christianity and Christian beliefe behavior now in modern times, while Islam radical is consider not only a pretty much newer religion but a religion that is mostly on third world countries, where humans right are violated more often giving this radical followers a more room to used against their own people and the world.

[edit on 1-7-2004 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Jakko
As for the history of Christians, I don't think the people that gave Christianity a bad name in those times, were people who were honestly believers of God and Jesus' teachings.
Their first priority was to get power/fame/money and they just abused Christianity to get to their goal.
For Islamic terrorist this is not the case. They truly believe in what they do, and do it, not for power/fame/money, but because they think this is what allah wants from them.

I don't agree Jakko. I think both Christians and Muslims used and continue to use their religions for power and control purposes. The true believers are those who blow up innocents, abortion clinics, etc. The ones in control in both religions would never die for their cause. I think we see evidence of this in Saudi Arabia where one of the top terrorists recently surrendered under the amnesty program.

Both religons share a single common trait and that is control/subjugation of the masses.

TextThe true believers are those who blow up innocents, abortion clinics, etc. The ones in control in both religions would never die for their cause.

That is right Bleys, we still have here in US the Christian radicals whenever you see groups bombing clinics and hate crime, but must Christians will argue that is not part of the church or they will never approved of any kind of hate crime, but they are still around and working behind the scenes.

Very strange how you say it is Christian not to take revenge but your whole post seems to be a revenge for your claim that there are more anti-Christian threads. Is it foolish and spiteful to talk about made-up theories when you have a very poor understanding of the subject? If yes, then perhaps you would do people a favour to read up about Islam (not from a Christian source), before posting.

Originally posted by Jakko
For some time now, I've been thinking about the Islam, and the influence that this religion has on the world we live in, compared to the influence of my religion, Christianity.

Same here.

Originally posted by Jakko
Not that this is just a theory, not something I am convinced of 100%, just a "could be" theory.
Let's try to stay on topic, there's loads of threads about wether Christianity is the one true religion or not, but this thread is about something else.

Is it really, even though the whole post tries to bash Islam with false accusations! Yes it's definitely about something, your post is about people not doctrines. Why side-track the issue of the doctrine itself, by bringing error of man into it, are you avoiding something? The government (and thus media which gets its information mainly from there) distorts the view so the other side looks more evil, we all know that. If you consider the reported (through media) acts and thoughts of people, rather understanding the doctrines, then you're not seeking truth.

Your "theory,"

As with everything coming from God, His holy book, the bible, was also copied by humans inspired by satan or demons to create yet another alternative to Christianity that contains a part of truth, but not all of it.
Half truth is a lie as well, and I think this applies to the Islam fully.

Right you want us to assume that every Holy Book is corrupt, including the Qur'an. Not a very nice God if should he let us go like that.

This starts making even more sense, if you think about the core-emotions that these religions consist of.
Christianity is all about grace and love, from God for us, and from us for eachother. Even when someone is wrong or evil, do not try to get your revenge, do not lose your mind in angryness, and do not be tempted to get your rights no matter what.

all about grace and love
Is it about love toward God too? Do you mean that non-Christians cannot have love for each other? People cannot help how they love. Nothing, not the Bible nor the Qur'an, can affect that; so saying it is "all about love" means nothing.

sin and revenge
Let me introduce your definition of Christian, the perfect Christian who is as good as can be (i.e. sinless), and accepts your statement as above. The following is obviously not applicable to Christians who don't agree with the above quoted qualities entirely, that's why I've used italics.

To disobey God is sin, correct? Sin is evil (wrong). So getting revenge is evil according to you. Physical revenge is punishment for injury, and wrong. Thus Christian (who is perfect) should let Osama bin Laden rejoin civilisation and not be punished if he did not appear to be a threat anymore.

If he did appear to be a threat, this means pre-emptive punishment. Is it okay for Christian to punish pre-emptively? If I have a gun in my jacket, can Christian demand I drop it or face violence. If "no," then was it Christian of Bush to attack Iraq. If you say because Iraq orchestrated or helped in 911 (which is a lie), you still cannot allow that because you said revenge was a sin.

So unless Christian is allowed to attack people because they seem to be a threat to him, Christian does good by not lifting a finger even if both him and his family were being tortured by some madman, but instead forgiving the criminal. Suddenly this Christian is not looking so good. But he can afford to feel good only because he is being protected by those who are violent (a country's army).

Islam allows you to defend and punish, this is addressed in the Qur'an hence the verses mentioning fighting. Similiar to what reasonable men have thought hard about to bring you modern Law, only Islam had it "perfected" 1400 years ago.

The Islam on the other hand, is infected by negative emotions entirely.
Angryness, agressiveness, fear, revenge and hate are not only the fuel of some of the extremists, but also the examples that Mohammed gives through his actions in the Koran. Fear of God, not expecting anything gracefull from the allmighty creator, just punishment if you do something wrong. A religion in which the God is focussed on flaws and mistakes, on your negative sides.

Fear is the only fuel for people being violent, you make it sound as though it all comes from the Qur'an. It comes from loving too, if you didn't love anything you have no reason to protect it.

Muhammad doesn't give any examples in the Qur'an, his nature was one of non-violence; it was God that demanded he rebuild the message, even if it meant violence.

Fear of Allah's punishment is surely something that supresses man doing evil, it is both natural and important - Christians have equal capacity to fear too. Where did you get the idea that Allah focusses on flaws only. Allah states plenty of times that He looks at good deeds, in fact counting them more than bad deeds.

The way women are treated, the laws in countries with an Islamic regime, the close ties with criminal organisations that not only Al Qeueda has.(spelling?)

Muslim women are told by Allah to wear modest (loose) clothing. Men are told to do the same, believe it or not, either verse is equal in demand, just that men are structured differently. Since Allah said so, Muslims do this by their own free-will: not oppression. And the results of this, look at the so called "free" countries:

Where women have to compete for men by flaunting themselves, driving them to unhappiness, frustration, and self-mutilation (cosmetic surgery) if they're too ugly. Sounds like the "law of the jungle," not civilisation.

Where the incidents of household abuse against women is greater than elsewhere. Alcohol, flirtation are some causes of this - which are both wrongs in Islam.

So while it appears, on the surface, better to let people do what they want, it does not mean it is better for society overall. I don't like bringing real world into discussing doctrine, but only if to show that where men are concerned all doctrines get distorted.

The final "proof" for my theory is the bombings.
I'm being told that the ones who do suicide bombings, are the extremists. The ones that have lost their mind and are brainwashed by darker, higher persons that have no real interest in following their religion.
Yet somehow, these bombings keep on going on.

Who knows why they really do it, they're dead so they cannot tell us. The obvious answer to me that they do things out of fear and anger for what Israel has done to them, but that thought wouldn't occur to you if you listen only to US media.

I think Satan/demons are the only forces in this world, capable of getting people to commit suicide in this horrible way on such a large scale.
With this I mean, satan/demons in the form of people that are in a demons' power, that convince other (weaker) human beings of fullfilling their "divine purpose".

Now you're making much more sense...

Originally posted by Bleys
The true believers are those who blow up innocents, abortion clinics, etc.

A true Christian would never ever do such a thing. It's simply against everything that Christianity is about.
The horrible things that happened in the past were not at all result of Christianity. They were result of the ignorance and fear of people that maybe claimed to be Christians, but that never truly tried to live by the rules that God gave.

And likewise a true Muslim should not kill. Do you see that it's all about perception?

I find it difficult to hold any religion up as a model for being noble or honorable. From the moment a religion is defined - it begins to be bastardized no matter what the belief system. Mainly due to the weakness of man in general. Absolute power corrupts - even in matters of spirituality.

Love and Grace

lets see, your God of love & grace says
" I the Lord your god am a vengeful God" and continues with,
" i will remove all rememberance of you"

this is the same God that sanctioned and in fact ordered the total genocide
of several peoples to make a place for his alleged people.

The same God in whos name his RCC slaughtered 10s of thousands of other
christians over a point of " revealed truth".

even the prophet that christians claim to follow, and paint as the "meek and
mild" says " I come not to bring Peace but a sword" and commands his followers to purchase a sword even if they must sell their garment to do so.

if you are going to pursue the "us and them" road, then we can add a rememberence of what Your followers of this god of love and grace
did to the Native American peoples over the last 3 or 4 centurys. might as well add slavery of it various flavors in as well, which was supported and condoned by the followers of your god as well.

Originally posted by mithras
Very strange how you say it is Christian not to take revenge but your whole post seems to be a revenge for your claim that there are more anti-Christian threads.

My claim that there are more anti-Christian threads?
Pffft, read my post again.
As for this post being "revenge" you're talking nonsense. It has nothing to do with it.

Is it foolish and spiteful to talk about made-up theories when you have a very poor understanding of the subject? If yes, then perhaps you would do people a favour to read up about Islam (not from a Christian source), before posting.

I did. I did not read the entire Koran I must admit, but I did do research before thinking about this possibility.

the whole post tries to bash Islam with false accusations!

Then you completely misunderstood.
There are no accusations. It is a theory that may be possible, but that requires further investigation and consideration.
I am not attempting to bash anything or anyone, merely trying to find out how things came to be as they are now.

If you consider the reported (through media) acts and thoughts of people, rather understanding the doctrines, then you're not seeking truth.

These Islamic Extremists really don't need the media to look evil Mithras.
That's because they are evil.

Right you want us to assume that every Holy Book is corrupt, including the Qur'an. Not a very nice God if should he let us go like that.

Read my post again. For a Christian the bible simply is the only holy book. I can't help that.

Is it about love toward God too? Do you mean that non-Christians cannot have love for each other? People cannot help how they love. Nothing, not the Bible nor the Qur'an, can affect that; so saying it is "all about love" means nothing.

Once again, you misunderstood my point.
The love showed through the example of Jesus is what I am talking about.
A love for God and for people around you, that overrides revenge, jealousy, hate, etc.

Let me introduce your definition of Christian, the perfect Christian who is as good as can be (i.e. sinless), and accepts your statement as above.

I don't recall saying that. Humans are never perfect and Christians are not an exception. My post was not about who sins more, or who is perfect.
I really don't understand how you can post something like this as a reply to my message...

To disobey God is sin, correct? Sin is evil (wrong). So getting revenge is evil according to you. Physical revenge is punishment for injury, and wrong. Thus Christian (who is perfect) should let Osama bin Laden rejoin civilisation and not be punished if he did not appear to be a threat anymore.

Typical. Using the most extreme examples to question Gods desire for us to forgive eachother. It's a little bit childish to play it like that.
And once again, Christians are not perfect. If that's the message you got out of my post, then I think you should stop posting in this thread.

was it Christian of Bush to attack Iraq. If you say because Iraq orchestrated or helped in 911 (which is a lie), you still cannot allow that because you said revenge was a sin.

Please stay on topic. I really don't feel like going into an endless discussion with someone who's constantly trying to find the most extreme examples against the Christian rules.
It's childish and it has been done too many times before.

Muhammad doesn't give any examples in the Qur'an, his nature was one of non-violence; it was God that demanded he rebuild the message, even if it meant violence.

I don't think you know enough about Muhammads nature to say things like that. His actions are all we can base an opinion about "his nature" on.
He was violent and a child-rapist.

Fear of Allah's punishment is surely something that supresses man doing evil, it is both natural and important - Christians have equal capacity to fear too. Where did you get the idea that Allah focusses on flaws only. Allah states plenty of times that He looks at good deeds, in fact counting them more than bad deeds.

You can't deny that in Christianity, the focuss lies on doing something right, where in the Koran, the focuss lies on not doing something wrong.
There's a huge difference.

It was not my intention to get into these kinds of arguments with you Mithras. Most of your post has nothing to do with this thread directly, and your points, ranging from the hysterical way you blow up the power of the media against "the east" to using "cosmic surgery" in a comparison between the state of woman in western and eastern countries, may be nice to talk about sometime, but not in this thread.
Make a new thread if you want to have such a discussion.

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Jakko]

[edit on 1-7-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
For Islamic terrorist this is not the case. They truly believe in what they do, and do it, not for power/fame/money, but because they think this is what Allah wants from them.

This is not entirely true. As President Bush said in a recent speech, "[terrorist supporters] ... gave cash rewards to families of suicide bombers ..." (also mentioned here and here). I think this is more then a "symbolic" move to help the orphaned family of the suicide terrorists ... I believe this is a major influence in their decision to commit a terroristic act.

It's not their God who's supporting their family after they're gone, it the cold hard cash they know the family will receive from sympathizers.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

" I the Lord your god am a vengeful God" and continues with,
" i will remove all rememberance of you"

this is the same God that sanctioned and in fact ordered the total genocide
of several peoples to make a place for his alleged people.

The same God in whos name his RCC slaughtered 10s of thousands of other
christians over a point of " revealed truth".

You should not rip apart parts of the bible to use them out of their context.
Also, you know nothing about what really happened back in those days. Your subjective ignorance regarding the past is not helping you to find the true answers.

Some people insist on using history against Christianity, on using the mistakes of people that called themselves Christian, but whos actions had nothing to do with Christianity, against Christianity.
It's a little bit easy to play it like this, and quite unoriginal.

Jakko-Just so we are on the same page, what do you consider a Christian?

I'm reading over the last few posts you made and with every point someone makes - you counter with "they are not a real christian"

B

Yes Bleys, it's because the examples that people use to make Christianity look bad, are examples of people doing things that have nothing to do with Christianity.
I can not defend myself against the hundreds of examples of "Christians" doing very bad things.
I only know what God tells us through the bible and through the example of Jesus, and I know that the example of Jesus is almost the opposite to the example of Mohammed.

I don't even want to try to justify every single mistake that someone who called himself a Christian has made in the past. It just makes no sense.

Originally posted by Jakko
I did. I did not read the entire Koran I must admit, but I did do research before thinking about this possibility.

Did you go to Daniel Pipes?

Then you completely misunderstood.
There are no accusations. It is a theory that may be possible, but that requires further investigation and consideration.
I am not attempting to bash anything or anyone, merely trying to find out how things came to be as they are now.

Okay if you genuinely seek truth.

These Islamic Extremists really don't need the media to look evil Mithras.
That's because they are evil.

Or maybe they are human, subject to fears and emotions and do things they know are wrong.

If you do choose to call them evil by their actions. Then why don't you say the same of the US military when they bomb weddings or generally kill innocent people. "We didn't know," or "unfortunate," doesn't wash with me. I think part of the evil in the world is the relunctance to accept responsibility, to get away for free.

Once again, you misunderstood my point.
The love showed through the example of Jesus is what I am talking about.
A love for God and for people around you, that overrides revenge, jealousy, hate, etc.

Love doesn't override those emotions, it breeds them.

Let me introduce your definition of Christian, the perfect Christian who is as good as can be (i.e. sinless), and accepts your statement as above.

I don't recall saying that. Humans are never perfect and Christians are not an exception. My post was not about who sins more, or who is perfect.
I really don't understand how you can post something like this as a reply to my message...

You're not following my reasoning then. So you're saying you shouldn't bother to strive to be a perfect Christian? Can we just assume there is a perfect (or nearly) perfect Christian as an example. This means he does not take revenge or ever hurt others, right?

To disobey God is sin, correct? Sin is evil (wrong). So getting revenge is evil according to you. Physical revenge is punishment for injury, and wrong. Thus Christian (who is perfect) should let Osama bin Laden rejoin civilisation and not be punished if he did not appear to be a threat anymore.

Typical. Using the most extreme examples to question Gods desire for us to forgive eachother. It's a little bit childish to play it like that.
And once again, Christians are not perfect. If that's the message you got out of my post, then I think you should stop posting in this thread.

You can use the idea of a perfect Muslim. No problem, just know what that perfection is through learning the doctrine. And you will find I am happy to talk about that. I am considering what a Christian strives to be.

Why are you afraid to discuss the idea of a perfect human (in the Christian's view of God)?

was it Christian of Bush to attack Iraq. If you say because Iraq orchestrated or helped in 911 (which is a lie), you still cannot allow that because you said revenge was a sin.

Please stay on topic. I really don't feel like going into an endless discussion with someone who's constantly trying to find the most extreme examples against the Christian rules.
It's childish and it has been done too many times before.

Hang on, aren't you doing this "childish thing" to Islam? You must admit you brought up the extremists?

Muhammad doesn't give any examples in the Qur'an, his nature was one of non-violence; it was God that demanded he rebuild the message, even if it meant violence.

I don't think you know enough about Muhammads nature to say things like that. His actions are all we can base an opinion about "his nature" on.
He was violent and a child-rapist.

Wait a minute, earlier you said you knew little about Islam and now you're the teacher?

Fear of Allah's punishment is surely something that supresses man doing evil, it is both natural and important - Christians have equal capacity to fear too. Where did you get the idea that Allah focusses on flaws only. Allah states plenty of times that He looks at good deeds, in fact counting them more than bad deeds.

You can't deny that in Christianity, the focuss lies on doing something right, where in the Koran, the focuss lies on not doing something wrong.
There's a huge difference.

This is a mistake of logic isn't it? If the focus lies in not doing something wrong, then by logic it is in doing something right. (Doing nothing at all falls into a wrong or right)

It was not my intention to get into these kinds of arguments with you Mithras. Most of your post has nothing to do with this thread directly, and your points, ranging from the hysterical way you blow up the power of the media against "the east" to using "cosmic surgery" in a comparison between the state of woman in western and eastern countries, may be nice to talk about sometime, but not in this thread.
Make a new thread if you want to have such a discussion.

My replies are appropriate, you just don't know how to answer. At the start you wanted to learn, now you want it only your way? Don't run off now, we were getting along.

Originally posted by mithras

You're not following my reasoning then. So you're saying you shouldn't bother to strive to be a perfect Christian? Can we just assume there is a perfect (or nearly) perfect Christian as an example. This means he does not take revenge or ever hurt others, right?

The only true example we have of a perfect Christian is Jesus himself. And even though Christians should try to be like him, it does not mean Christian are perfect.

Why are you afraid to discuss the idea of a perfect human (in the Christian's view of God)?

I'm not, but that's not what this is about.
This is about what I see around me today when I look at the events in this world.

Hang on, aren't you doing this "childish thing" to Islam? You must admit you brought up the extremists?

What, I bring up terrorists, now you have the "right" to bring up Bush?
As you may have noticed, there are a lot of terrorists doing the same thing, desiring the same Jihad. You can't compare this to the mistakes of Bush. I'm not even going to try to explain why Bush does what he does.

Wait a minute, earlier you said you knew little about Islam and now you're the teacher?

Unless you talked to Mohammed yourself, using his "nature" in this discussion seems a little bit ignorant. Any opinion you have about his nature will just have to accepted by me, right? I don't know his nature like you do...
Understand?

This is a mistake of logic isn't it? If the focus lies in not doing something wrong, then by logic it is in doing something right. (Doing nothing at all falls into a wrong or right)

No the difference is huge.
It's like some parents raising their kids with reward systems, and other parents raising their kids with penalty systems.
It's the opposite.

My replies are appropriate, you just don't know how to answer. At the start you wanted to learn, now you want it only your way? Don't run off now, we were getting along.

I know how to answer, the problem is that your "points" have allready partly been discussed in other threads. I don't see why we should go over them again. Your entire perception of my post (revenge because there are a lot of anti christian threads) is invalid to begin with.

I can see what Jakko is trying to say.

I am not a Christian. But let me clarify something.

First of all, the Christians have NOT been harrassing the Muslims for 2000 years. Islam was founded 500 or so years after Christianity. And, not 100 years after its founding, Muslims went on a vioilent rampage, the jihad, spreading the religion like wildfire.

It was the Muslim Moors who invaded and occupied Europe first. See Spain, Portugal, Italy. They were stopped By Charles Martel at Lyons. It was the Muslims who began the wars.

The crusades, which began a good 250 years after the Muslims invaded, were a response against the Islamic agression.

Christianity was a cruel religion in the middle ages. Very cruel and abusive, and continued to be so for quite some time.

But the difference? Christianity EVOLVED. With the age of reason, the rennisance, new ideas pushed aside the power of the church, and created secular govornments. The ideas of freedom of religion, seperation of church and state, were ideas that blossomed and prospered. Christianity accepted its new place. With radicAL changes in science and culture, the Christians learned to adapt with the new times.

Islam did not do this. Islam continues to dwell in the dark ages of human thought. Muslim countries did not accept a seperation of church and state until the west pressured them into doing so. Muslim countries still live well behind the times. Many muslims still dwell in literal translation and thought of the Koran.

The difference is in which religion has evolved, not which is right or wrong.