9/11 Psychology, a comparison of facts 9/11 and WMDs

Originally posted by GenRadek
reply to post by Evanescence

 

As you know, theologians are the persons to talk to about structural engineering, fire safety, fire science, aeronautics, metallurgy, and military protocols. Dont you know that?

you know what, talk to the other 3200+ people from this Site and then come back with your unfounded accusations. You have 7 different professions there that you can choose from.

And anyway how qualified are you to talk about the whole topic? Hell you also talk about all the topics about 911 like you would have a clue, besides reading the material thats out there and not really understanding it.

It seems to me the psychology is more like this:

Boring life
-> Official story (real life).
-> Feeling something does not add up.
-> Exciting and attractive alternative theories.
-> Trapped in fantasies that make you feel extraordinary and more important.
Excitement

I think the addiction to that feeling is so strong that any logic or fact is irrelevant, they are ignored in order to remain in that mental state. I think this line of reasoning can be applied to most believes out there, and that is why people are so attached to such believes.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

What you're doing is called a faux pas... sorta like walking into a mosque and trying to preach Christianity.

It's more akin to walking into a mosque as a skeptic and agnostic and trying to teach them how logic and reason doesn't really support their views or at least how the process of reasoning behind those views is flawed.

Originally posted by -PLB-
It seems to me the psychology is more like this:

Boring life
-> Official story (real life).
-> Feeling something does not add up.
-> Exciting and attractive alternative theories.
-> Trapped in fantasies that make you feel extraordinary and more important.
Excitement

I think the addiction to that feeling is so strong that any logic or fact is irrelevant, they are ignored in order to remain in that mental state. I think this line of reasoning can be applied to most believes out there, and that is why people are so attached to such believes.

Wow that's pretty much a summation of the entire psychological paradigm of the truther movement.

I applaud that as I do think you have too many with "special snowflake syndrome" here which tends to preclude an understanding of their own psychological predispositions and heuristic biases.

reply to post by Thermo Klein


I'm sorry, but it is a part of the Psychology of 9/11 that the trusters have. I pointed out how the trusters believe someone (a theologian) to be more credible than the thousands of actual professionals that worked on NIST's team, and those on ASCE. They believe that a small group of people with varying backgrounds that have little to nearly no relevance to understanding the vast complex mechanics of the collapses of the WTC, are seen and believed to be just the "expert professionals" that somehow trump the actual experts in their fields.

You want to talk psychology? Let's go: The TM is already suspicious of the US govt, and believes its out to get them. They see 9/11 as an inside job (based on nothing more than hunches and gut feelings). A theologian with ZERO background in any of the relevant categories required to understand the whole set of events that occurred to the WTCs writes a book and starts a website proclaiming that the attacks are an "Inside Job" committed by (insert favorite enemy here) and that the collapses are very suspicious and somehow prove demolition. All of this is based on: looking at the collapses. Oh and gut feelings and hunches. And then we added on a few other believers in this crock idea, who offer their "expertise" and also just look at the collapses and then proclaim it could only have happened via demolition. And then they start a petition that after 8 or 9 years reaches about 1300 signatures of "professionals" who disagree with the actual version of events of fire and damage caused collapses, but in reality, only a small number have any relevant backgrounds to be able to comment on the events. You want psychology? There you have it. And now we get a whole little army of yes-men and women, who dont even bother doing any actual research, and only listen to those people who only agree with their preconceived notions, and ignore and shun any dissident voices, or data or facts that contradict their beliefs. When it is shown or proven how their data has been twisted, distorted, taken out of context, or completely fabricated by the TM, it is seen as an attack on their beliefs and immediately end debate while patting themselves on their backs for a job well done. And then they continue to spout the same falsehoods, lies, and distortions to anyone who will listen and not even bother to correct or fix the errors. And the "facts" are constantly repeated, no matter how erroneous, false, made up, etc, in the hope it will become true. And that is how the TM has been able to survive (albeit barely).

You are right this is a great psychological study. It looks like the psychological study of how a religion is started or a cult, based on lies, distortions, misconceptions, cherry-picked info, and a sense of inflated incredulity, all flying the face of actual facts and truth. Voila! And the irony? Its head is a theologian!

reply to post by GenRadek


1) Which Theologian are you talking about?

2) you have no idea what Psychology is... it is the study of behavior, and the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD is why people will not accept facts. You are obviously unable to comprehend the true meaning of this thread.

But as one of the handful of resident ATS OSers you did your job well... you kept the actual discussion from being talked about by repeatedly talking about something other than the purpose of the thread, and the only people left are the same old people who ALWAYS argue the same unchanging point, without thought.

Originally posted by TrueFalse
W. Rodriguez stated that while he was in the basement he felt 2 explosions. The first one was BEFORE THE IMPACT of the Plane and came from the basement. After this he felt the a impact from above which was the plane. So yeah, maybe the "fireballs" came down the elevator shafts but the first explosion was in the basement and again BEFORE the first impact.

First, I'm not debating Rodriguez felt two explosions, and second, I'm not debating that he felt the one below him before the one above him. What I want to know from you conspiracy people is how on *earth* he would know which explosion was which when he was down in the basement and couldn't see what was happening outside the structure. I have to presume Rodriguez doesn't have X-ray vision.

If he's simply presuming the explosion above him was from the impact then I will then ask whether the shock wave of the explosion from the fireballs coming down the elevator shaft...which he himself admits happened and particularly when it was powerful enough to push an elevator down several floors...wouldn't have reached the basement before the shock wave of the impact travelled down through the structure itself. Of course, I know it's going to ignite all sorts of unsubstanciated accusations from self styled materials engineers and explosives experts among the conspiracy tribe who've never even built a house out of Legos or lit off a firecracker, but nonetheless there's one point that's undebatable- there are a lot more reasonable explanations for what Rodriguez experienced than there are paranoid conspiracy explanations.

Berry Jennings on the other hand was in the WTC 7. After the first plane hit he had to man the Office of Emergence Managemant. After they realised that there was NO ONE there, he and Mr. Hess wanted to get out of there. While going down suddenly a big explosion happend which trapped both of them on the 8th floor. This was all before the towers fell. They where there for several hours before they where rescued and while they where escorted out they had to step over bodies in the WTC7 lobby.

No it didn't. When Jennings got there the building was already evacuated, meaning he would've arrived about an hour before WTC 1 collapsed, and between going up and down the elevators, trying to get hold of someone at the office, and climbing down the stairs, it would've taken about an hour to do all that. The time of the explosion occurred at the exact same time WTC 1 fell so it's ridiculous to ignore this and hypothesize somethign else was responsible. Besides, not even the most rabidly blind of the conspiracy zealots would attempt to claim a bomb powerful enough to destroy the whole lobby went off in WTC 7 and noone else in Manhattan seems to remember it.

[As i dont want to here another ridicoulus stament of you, i dont want to ask you how the people in the lobby died.

Not this crap again. Noone died in WTC 7. There are no records of anyone being killed there and Jennings himself said he didn't see any bodies. He was told not to look down and he presumed he was stepping over bodies.

man, you just start to make no sense at all...

why do you just pick out the things from witness reports that fit your story...

Oh, good grief, now I've seen everything. Hey, KETTLE! This is the pot! You're BLACK!

reply to post by Thermo Klein



This snippet is from your comment to GenRadek:

... and the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD is why people will not accept facts...

Which is EXACTLY what the Gen said....the FACTS are getting in the way of the "truth movement" adherents' fantastical beliefs...THEY are the ones who would rather stay worked up in frenzied cult-like obedience to fallacious reasoning, and usually outright misinformation and lies, in order to maintain an already-formed preconceived bias.

It is little different from the type of religious devotion seen, in those sorts of cults. Great analogy/comparison is the ever-present, and overwhelming fact, and evidence for, evolution. BUT, those details are inconvenient for the ones who are devoted and committed in their beliefs of a literal interpretation of the fairytale called "creation". NO amount of facts and evidence, apparently, will dissuade them.

Can you see it? The psychology is very, very similar.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and re-reading the title:

The above was relevant to the aspects of what is now been called the "9/11 truth movement", in all its complex iterations, and generally wrong interpretations of facts.

The "WMD" disaster of poor/false intelligence and possible deceit, in order to drum up the Iraqi invasion?? Completely different.

IF 9/11 had never happened, then the WMD story would have still been there. IRAQ, and 9/11, were NEVER connected, in any way!!! Even the Bushies weren't that desperate, they didn't need to be. AND, they wouldn't have fooled anyone, anyhow.

They kept the tom-toms beating about Sadaam, and the "WMD"s, UN weapons inspections, etc...AND dropped the "N"-word hint all the time...."nuculure" as Bush said it....'NUCLEAR' in English.

Remember Joe Wilson? Valerie Plame? (There's a movie, just out, in case you've forgotten). Bushies wanted a "yellow-cake" connection, from Africa (Niger), to Sadaam Hussein...to warrant and bolster their "WMD" claims.

It was all trumped-up, of course. BUT, it was whipped up into such a media frenzy --- who bought it hook, line and sinker. Making it easier to "sell". Still, 9/11 was not involved! At best, the true focus were the remnants, and associations that tied to Al Qaeda, especially in Afghanistan, with assistance they were being given by the Taliban. (The Taliban, BTW, were well known and active, well before 9/11!!!).

Of course, the other 9/11 associations weren't mentioned, were they? The (possibly) truest, and alternate funding sources, that may have stemmed from SAUDI ARABIA. But, not allowed to upset those people, because they are "allies", and strategically important. Even more so, from the beginning, since the Bush cabal was going to go "get" Sadaam, no matter what. 9/11 fell into their laps, as a sort of psychological trigger, but in the background....and they callously (and possibly ILLEGALLY) used that horrible event, in order to manipulate opinion for their OTHER agenda, in Iraq.

(And whatever was the full reason, for that...a greater foothold and dominance in the ME region, as part of some as-yet-fully-known long-term strategy.....??)

THERE is your "psychology"!! It's far, far more complicated than anyone in the "truth movement" can comprehend, based on a casual sifting through their stupid "conspiracy" websites...heck, THEY can't even agree with each other!!!

Your veiled insults of 9/11 'truthers' resembling a cult are absolutely vile.

This could have been an interesting thread OP but was expertly derailed by the usual pseudo-intellectual bores.

Originally posted by -PLB-
It seems to me the psychology is more like this:

Boring life
-> Official story (real life).
-> Feeling something does not add up.
-> Exciting and attractive alternative theories.
-> Trapped in fantasies that make you feel extraordinary and more important.
Excitement

How patronising... I'm sure your little theory would go down well with the 9/11 families looking for a new investigation.

reply to post by Thermo Klein


Which Theologian? David Ray Griffin. You have never heard of this guy? The GUY who started all this nonsense? You didnt know that David Ray Griffin is a theologian? Shocked!

Who did he influence for the creation of AE49/11T? Richard "BoxBoy" Gage. You remember him? Tried to scientifically prove with boxes how the WTCs werent suppose to collapse. You want to argue about why people dont accept facts?

You just said this topic is about why people wont accept facts. Well then what the heck is the TM doing? Lets use a great example: They are still repeating the lie that steel was melted by jet fuel. And who started that lie? TRUTHERS!!!!!!!!! Who is constantly repeating this lie? TRUTHERS!!!!!!!! Who is trying to fix this lie and give the facts? The debunkers. Who is ignoring the fact? TRUTHERS!!!!!!

You want to talk about why some people done want to listen to facts? Why dont you start with the TM, then move onto others. When will the Truthers accept the FACT that jet fuel DID NOT melt steel, and that the steel only needed to be heated up and have extra applied stresses to fail?

And here we have another golden example of people not accept facts. You wont accept that fact that the whole truth movement is based solely on people looking at pictures and video and having their "gut feeling" tell them thats not how it happened. You would rather believe the "facts" from someone who has ZERO authority on the issues at hand, and somehow believe that HE is greater than the many many many actual professionals at NIST, ASCE, and FEMA to name a few.

Originally posted by Internet Explorer
This could have been an interesting thread OP but was expertly derailed by the usual pseudo-intellectual bores.

precisely!

Maybe I'll work on it a little more and get it published in a Psych journal - a place where these 5-6 OSers will surely never look