How We Are Killing Our Own Freedoms

Over the last several months on ATS I, as well as many of you, have lived through quite a series of very emotionally charged and hyperbolic threads and debates. The plethora of "Ground Zero" Mosque threads, and endless supply of Obama threads - claiming any number of outrageous things, a ton of gay rights threads, many threads about government restrictions upon our food supply, quite a few threads about political groups, events, or specific politicians and now the overabundance of TSA based threads all bear a couple of things in common for me...

1) All these subjects tend to start wars about how our rights are being trodden upon. Many will then cite blogs or op ed pieces as their "source" for such claims.Often the claims, even if seemingly rational at first, often devolve into absolute speculation, rhetoric, and fantasy.

2) Many of these threads include posts by people who claim to be "Patriots" but who openly advocate or threaten violence against the US Government, or even upon other citizens who do not share the posters point of view.

Over this period of time I have engaged in some pretty heated debates on these issues. And through it all, I have tried, very much so, to understand the viewpoints of my opposition. Often I have failed at this endeavor, but I have really tried to at least understand even when I disagree. Yet I have failed at this a few times - remaining unable to see how others could become so unbelievably indignant about, or offended by some of these issues. I understand that, to some degree, this is ATS and most of us realize that sensational statements, claims, and thread titles often will lead to many flags and stars... which explains much of the hyperbole. But it doesn't explain it all. So, with that in mind, I have been doing so deep, deep soul searching in an attempt to just understand better some of those who I share this board with.

It was in this search for understanding that I came to the belief that I am presently of a mind to hold... We are getting played people. We are getting played in the ultimate game of "left / right paradigm" and I think that the ultimate goal of this manipulation is to justify the taking away of our most basic rights. And the game is very, very crafty indeed. We are falling victim to a version of "divide and conquer" of the most insidious and divisive variety.

I think that we are being manipulated and tricked into becoming so polarized that violence becomes inevitable and that this violence will be used as an excuse to limit liberties, suspend rights, and create a perpetual sort of martial law. Think it's ridiculous? Read a few political threads and read the outright and vivid seditious statements being made in them.

We are being provoked specifically to incite a specific reaction. Our overlords are kicking their pet dog (us) so that we'll bite and they can justify the leash that we are about to find ourselves wearing.It is so brilliant in it's simplicity that I actually am impressed. The way to steal freedom? Tell people that it's dying and the use their knee jerk reaction as an excuse to kill it totally off.

So, as we continue to bicker back and forth in the forums, citing hyperbole, lies, half truths, and opinions, be wary because it is entirely possible that we are all laying the groundwork here for the very thing that so many of us are passionately trying to prevent. By our beliefs and reactions we might very well be breathing life into the very beast that we fear. So, for those who keep saying that they are ready for revolution... Be careful what you wish for because just by wishing for it you might make it our last and only option.

Just some food for thought.

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


I don't know, the further and further they push us seems to be having the opposite effect in my eyes. Yes, people still bicker back and forth, but they are more and more starting to unite against the behemoth of a government and system of global rule.

You are denouncing talk of revolution, but not taking into account that the land of the free would have never existed for the brief time that it did, without revolution.

I would not compare the people of the United States of America to a dog being provoked, maybe a massive herd of Grolar bears. When the American people do bite, the government will not be able to put a leash on them, the American people DO have the power to crush our government and start over.

You can have freedom or peace, but never both. This begs the question, how did we let the federal government trick America into being satisfied with NEITHER freedom nor peace.


*Edit* S&F for you, this issue needs discussed*

Most Americans are whiney and want everything handed to them and if they don't like it they protest or whine and say they are being violated or something stupid like that. I AM American and I say this. It's getting ridiculous. I don't play into that crap, I see right through it. I don't like many things going on right now in this country and yes things need to change but what do you do? Honestly..

I have tried to stay out of the TSA threads and I pretty much avoided the Mosque threads because again I personally saw nothing wrong with it being built.

People are fighting and arguing over the smallest things when there are worst things out there to be worried about. It just seems like everyone is angry all the time lately and fed up.

S&F

Originally posted by Killface

I don't know, the further and further they push us seems to be having the opposite effect in my eyes. Yes, people still bicker back and forth, but they are more and more starting to unite against the behemoth of a government and system of global rule.

From what I have seen, division seems to be what is happening, and not unification. I've been on ATS for quite a long time and the last several months are the first time that I have seen literal death threats and an absolute level of vitriol and hate. Most agree that corruption is a horrible thing, and I have yet to see anyone defend the Government on the whole. But, regardless, the gulf between the left and the right seems to be widening to me... and with that divide is coming a lot of hatred.

Originally posted by Killface

You are denouncing talk of revolution, but not taking into account that the land of the free would have never existed for the brief time that it did, without revolution.

I do not denounce the concept of revolution. What I do not support is hyperbolic reaction and talk of unjust sedition. We are still a government of and by the people... And until such a time as all recourse is lost to us, talk of overthrowing this government is irrational, seditious, and criminal.

Moreover, many posts I have seen fall into a "when we take power, you will pay for your opinions" category. I, for one, to not want a violent coup which would result in a government of intolerance.

Originally posted by Killface

I would not compare the people of the United States of America to a dog being provoked, maybe a massive herd of Grolar bears. When the American people do bite, the government will not be able to put a leash on them, the American people DO have the power to crush our government and start over.

We have the power to control our government. Nowhere are we given the right to "crush" it. The idea of our own military firing upon citizens apparently doesn't make me as happy as it seems to make others.

Originally posted by Killface

You can have freedom or peace, but never both. This begs the question, how did we let the federal government trick America into being satisfied with NEITHER freedom nor peace.

I disagree in principle. We can have both freedom and peace. Freedom does sometimes require violence. But it more so requires vigilance, education, perseverance, and hope. Maybe I'm idealistic here, but I do believe that it is possible to have a country that can be as great as its potential suggests it should be.

As for the Government tricking us... That is the core of this thread. I do wholeheartedly believe that we are being tricked, and in ways we can barely comprehend or suspect.

Thanks for replying!

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide

From what I have seen, division seems to be what is happening, and not unification. I've been on ATS for quite a long time and the last several months are the first time that I have seen literal death threats and an absolute level of vitriol and hate. Most agree that corruption is a horrible thing, and I have yet to see anyone defend the Government on the whole. But, regardless, the gulf between the left and the right seems to be widening to me... and with that divide is coming a lot of hatred.

Maybe on ATS, I do not spend an impressive amount of time on here, but in real life, almost everybody I meet has the exact same sentiments for our overlords as I do, regardless of what party they are. I woke up to the left vs. right distraction, so have you...It won't be long before everybody opens their eyes to it.

Originally posted by Hefficide
I do not denounce the concept of revolution. What I do not support is hyperbolic reaction and talk of unjust sedition. We are still a government of and by the people... And until such a time as all recourse is lost to us, talk of overthrowing this government is irrational, seditious, and criminal.

Moreover, many posts I have seen fall into a "when we take power, you will pay for your opinions" category. I, for one, to not want a violent coup which would result in a government of intolerance.

I disagree with this, our government is neither by the people nor for the people... "I do wholeheartedly believe that we are being tricked, and in ways we can barely comprehend or suspect."- You.

How can a government of the people and for the people trick the people? They can't. The government stopped representing the citizens of the USA a long time ago.

Originally posted by Hefficide
We have the power to control our government. Nowhere are we given the right to "crush" it. The idea of our own military firing upon citizens apparently doesn't make me as happy as it seems to make others.

Oh ye' of little faith, If you were a soldier would you fire on your family, friends, and neighbors? Ask the people here, who are in the military, if they will choose their loved ones or their boss. We don't need a right to do anything, do you think we had permission to break off from Britain to form this country? No.

What I am disheartened by are people who think history is over. The people that seem to think that all great persons lived in the past, and generally accept no responsibility for the future of the planet. As it happened all throughout history, a revolution will only happen when the people feel it is the only option.

Originally posted by Hefficide
I disagree in principle. We can have both freedom and peace. Freedom does sometimes require violence. But it more so requires vigilance, education, perseverance, and hope. Maybe I'm idealistic here, but I do believe that it is possible to have a country that can be as great as its potential suggests it should be.

As for the Government tricking us... That is the core of this thread. I do wholeheartedly believe that we are being tricked, and in ways we can barely comprehend or suspect.

Thanks for replying!

~Heff

For true peace, people would have to give up EVERYTHING that could harm another person. You can not trust people, you can trust a majority, but if people have freedom *some* of them WILL infringe upon peace. In order to have peace you must infringe upon freedoms to prevent those *some* people from ruining peace.

We are throwing freedoms out left and right, seeking peace. Think warrant-less phone tapping, we gave up a freedom, so that terrorists would not ruin our peace. (And then we went to war with them for freedom HA!)

If you feel the government is pulling our strings and playing us to their advantage, why do you advocate us leaving them in power? Honest question.

reply to post by Killface


To answer the question as directly as I can,

If ones home is infested with bugs, a wise man fumigates. A fool burns his house down. I don't think we're beyond the point of fumigating yet.

A few key reforms, such as term limitation, banning lobbying, banning earmarks, etc... for starters, are a means of getting rid of the infestation without bringing down the whole system.

Reform before revolution.

And on a side note... I was born on a military base, and have known military people my entire life and the truth is that, if ordered to do so, many soldiers would fire on Americans. Especially if impassioned by rhetoric and political dogma into believing that a group was "the enemy".

~Heff

I disagree in principle. We can have both freedom and peace. Freedom does sometimes require violence. But it more so requires vigilance, education, perseverance, and hope.

I agree completely. Over the years I watched as our country has slipped from being a republic to being a democracy on the way to being an oligarchy. Our elected representatives have been slowly eating away at the constitution which moves us away from being a republic. Also, as you are all aware, our elected representatives have become deaf to their constituents wishes and voting the way the party leaders dictate. Sure there are a few brave outliers, but sadly too few and this is moving us towards an oligarchy where we are being governed by an elite few.
We must make ourselves heard. The past midterm election was a start by letting the politicians know that we aren't happy with their results, neither republican or democrat.
Our forefathers knew how to make sure the Federal government didn't get too big for it's britches. The way to get the message to our representatives is through our local governments. Our forefathers were so distrustful of the Federal government that typically there would be 3 times the turnout for the local elections as there was for the Federal elections, which is the opposite of what it is now.
Get involved in your local politics, vote in the local elections, elect local leaders that will pressure both the state and federal governments to listen to the needs of the People.
This is the way we need to take back control of OUR government.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Killface

 

To answer the question as directly as I can,

If ones home is infested with bugs, a wise man fumigates. A fool burns his house down. I don't think we're beyond the point of fumigating yet.

A few key reforms, such as term limitation, banning lobbying, banning earmarks, etc... for starters, are a means of getting rid of the infestation without bringing down the whole system.

Reform before revolution.

And on a side note... I was born on a military base, and have known military people my entire life and the truth is that, if ordered to do so, many soldiers would fire on Americans. Especially if impassioned by rhetoric and political dogma into believing that a group was "the enemy".

~Heff

I agree with most of your post except for a couple key points; 1. I am not so sure that we aren't past the fumigating option. The corruption is embedded so deep, that they simply may not let us pass reforms to limit their power. If you had the most power possible on the planet, and lets say it is in the form of a glove...if you owned this glove would you cut off the hand you wear it on? Because the people you use it to oppress ask you to?

2. I guess when it comes down to the military, you are going to have individuals following their ideals, and we can't really label them as a whole. In a war where it is clear cut, the American people versus the government, I have faith people would choose their kin.

reply to post by Hefficide

You just figured that out? The rest of the country is well aware of it.

Originally posted by Hefficide

I think that we are being manipulated and tricked into becoming so polarized that violence becomes inevitable and that this violence will be used as an excuse to limit liberties, suspend rights, and create a perpetual sort of martial law. Think it's ridiculous? Read a few political threads and read the outright and vivid seditious statements being made in them.

We are being provoked specifically to incite a specific reaction. Our overlords are kicking their pet dog (us) so that we'll bite and they can justify the leash that we are about to find ourselves wearing.It is so brilliant in it's simplicity that I actually am impressed. The way to steal freedom? Tell people that it's dying and the use their knee jerk reaction as an excuse to kill it totally off.


~Heff

I find myself agreeing with you, Heff. This all smacks of a larger, more far-reaching plan. I, too, have noticed that some seem to advocate violence. I do not think this will serve any purpose other than to bring martial law down on our heads and play completely into TPTB's hands.

The first problem that I see is that far too many people (and I do not speak of ATS here, but American society at large) seem unwilling or unable to break free of the carefully constructed paradigm crafted for us by the those in power. The left-right paradigm does nothing but devide us and ensure that we, as a society, will never truly band together in a substantive and meaningful way. This paradigm must be broken if the cause of true liberty and freedome is to be achieved. The MSM are the great pimps of propaganda which serve the purpose of pitting American against American.

I do not, personally, advocate the use of violence in achieving any type of change. What we deserpately need is a peaceful and non-violent revolution, fueled by discussion, ideas, and peaceful demonstration and civil disobedience. The moment we succumb to violence is the moment they can roll in martial law and strpi us of the rest of our illusion of freedom.

The problem is, at this point in time, I have no solutions, other than finding ways to make sure that I'm protected against such things as starving, etc. Preparedness. I continue to try my best to rationally and calmly wake up as many people around me as I possibly can. We need to come together, no matter what side we are on. No matter whether we are white/black/brown/blue/purple/green. That is what TPTB are trying so desperately through their paradigm and propaganda to prevent. That seems to be what they may possibly fear.

The big question is? How do we go about this?

Originally posted by ProvehitoInAltum

The problem is, at this point in time, I have no solutions, other than finding ways to make sure that I'm protected against such things as starving, etc. Preparedness. I continue to try my best to rationally and calmly wake up as many people around me as I possibly can. We need to come together, no matter what side we are on. No matter whether we are white/black/brown/blue/purple/green. That is what TPTB are trying so desperately through their paradigm and propaganda to prevent. That seems to be what they may possibly fear.

The big question is? How do we go about this?

Thank you for these wonderful words! And I agree totally! Our chains, I fear, are wrought from our divisions and our hate and mistrust of one another are what stand to enslave us all into bondage.

When will we come to realize that, increasingly "they" (the implied enemy) look more and more like "us".

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide


i agree, and i say that to confirm you are not alone in your wisdom

i think the problem is there are two kinds of people: those that fall for the tricks, and those that dont

unfortunately the only people on ats who actually post in these threads meant to only 'heat up everyones emotions and keep people from thinking logically or reaching conclusion or compromise' are the people that do not see it is nothing more than that

those who do see what is happening usually just don't even interfere or get involved, so what you get is a whole thread of heated debate with no compromise or conclusion

in the end i think it would LOOK to a bystander like ats must be indeed comprised mainly of people who fall for such tricks, but i think what has happened is the more wise ats members just don't get involved and that's that

reply to post by Hefficide


You're more than welcome. The more I watch this TSA affair, the more I begin to believe that this is, indeed, being carefully orchestrated. I can't help but feel there is an ulterior motive to this. They are going about things in a way that would seem to be provacative. It is the instinct of any creature, animal or human to protect their young. The fact that stories and videos are beginning to surface of what is being done to our young at airport checkpoints, is as if they are suddenly really turning the heat to 'high' on us frogs that are stuck in the pot of water, the slow incremental increase in temperate is being dialed up. I have to ask myself, 'is this what they want?' Is the main objective here to proke a violent reaction from a parent in an airport. What if they did something to a child that would infuriate the entire security line? Could an outbreak of violence erupt at a major airport? I'm disgusted with what the TSA is doing. I understand the reaction of many saying 'if that was my child I would hurt that person'. That is nature. However I fear someone finally snapping may be exactly the event they are trolling for. The timing is absolutely impeccable as we head into the busiest travel season of the year.

ETA: As I have stated in another thread about what the TSA workers are going through in this situation. The anger really needs to be directed at the source, the DHS, not the individual TSA workers. They are much caught up in this cycle as we are, and while like in every group there are bad apples, there are many more who are good and decent people

ETA #2: Another part of me wonders if the TSA problems are motivated by economics. Could TPTB want to kill the US airlines so that the Fed can swoop in and nationalize them so as to reap the profits that they can then apply to the debt and more outrageous spending programs. Or does this have anyting to do with those shock administering bracelets we heard about two years ago, that seem to have dissapeared from mention since. .

reply to post by Hefficide

I agree that this is divide and conquer but the goal is not to make us fight each other or to further strip us of our rights. The real goal is to further isolate us from each other, sow distrust and generally alienate us from our fellow citizens. The mental isolation of the individual is the ultimate goal.

I agree too that many of the threads that people have gotten so passionate about are more or less meaningless in the big picture of things.

As for further stripping us of our rights, what rights do we still current have that are not regularly violated by the government.?

reply to post by Hefficide

It was in this search for understanding that I came to the belief that I am presently of a mind to hold... We are getting played people. We are getting played in the ultimate game of "left / right paradigm" and I think that the ultimate goal of this manipulation is to justify the taking away of our most basic rights. And the game is very, very crafty indeed. We are falling victim to a version of "divide and conquer" of the most insidious and divisive variety.

Great post. I really do agree and have thought this myself for a while now.
This is what "order through chaos" means.

I was watching the film HOME and a couple of quotes in it were of interest to me. One reason there is such disparity of wealth and such dire poverty is that most people are unwittingly being played.

"For consumers and producers, justice is an opportunity to be seized.When trade is fair. When both buyer and seller benefit, everybody benefits. Everybody can prosper and earn a decent living."

Trade is not always fair and this crushes sections of the economy and all the sections beneath it depending on it, so that only a few can prosper. In the US alone...

As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers) Read more: wiki.answers.com...

This quote was most significant:
"Solidarity between people is stronger than the selfishness of Nations"

This is why we must be divided. If we get together in agreement, we get whatever we want.
As long as we disagree with each other we can be used against each other.
We can be herded into groups and played for suckers.

I have always said...Let's first tackle all those issues where we are all in complete agreement and put aside for later discussion areas where we might somehow disagree.
For example...we may not all be vegans but we can all agree it is necessary to treat animals in captivity humanely. Spaying and neutering pets should be mandatory for folks who are not breeders.
We may not agree on abortion but we agree on birth control. We may all not think it is necessary take our elders into our homes but we all agree elder care is as important a function as day care. Children and education should be prioritized. No one should go hungry. No one should live in poverty. No one should die when it is preventable. Mediation and problem solving should be taught in schools so we do not resort to violence at every turn.

Don't allow partisan politics to divide us. If something results in an argument leave it for later.
First settle at least those matters where we have consensus of opinion. With the advent of the internet it should be easy to determine the consensus of anything with an up or down vote and the question worded many different ways and broken down into components so that areas of consensus are easily spotted and accommodated.

I see a better world than the one we have now. None of us are all that different. It is the ruling class of establishment that perpetuates this scam and fosters disagreement among us so they can stay in control and remain "the ruling class."

Solidarity between people is stronger than the selfishness of Nations. Pass it on.

I would like to make my post short.. but sweet. We are killing our own freedoms by not realizing that we are born with it, and do not have to earn it. So the lesson today would be. Act as if you know your free, as opposed to asking to be "free".

Peace, NRE.

reply to post by Hefficide


S & F...wonderfully stated post!

I agree, too many are involed in the blame game (left vs right) for our demise as a nation. It plays into the hands of TPTB to cause us to be distracted by fighting each other while the elites steal our freedoms and our wealth as a formerly great nation.

I go further, though. I feel we are already past the point of no return in our demise as a nation. We will inevitably loose it all. Reform can't revive a dead horse. Encouraging people to "write a letter to a congressman" is a cruel joke. Little will exists to fight, so we must prepare to be enslaved by our masters, minimize our loved ones destruction and avoid confrontation. Wishing will accomplish nothing. The New World Order is here...nationalism died for lack of interest to preserve it.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Over the last several months on ATS I, as well as many of you, have lived through quite a series of very emotionally charged and hyperbolic threads and debates. The plethora of "Ground Zero" Mosque threads, and endless supply of Obama threads - claiming any number of outrageous things, a ton of gay rights threads, many threads about government restrictions upon our food supply, quite a few threads about political groups, events, or specific politicians and now the overabundance of TSA based threads all bear a couple of things in common for me...

1) All these subjects tend to start wars about how our rights are being trodden upon. Many will then cite blogs or op ed pieces as their "source" for such claims.Often the claims, even if seemingly rational at first, often devolve into absolute speculation, rhetoric, and fantasy.

2) Many of these threads include posts by people who claim to be "Patriots" but who openly advocate or threaten violence against the US Government, or even upon other citizens who do not share the posters point of view.

Sorry, anyone using a blog as a source, is ignored by me and the thread should be closed.

That is not using basic common sense to begin with to quote a non-viable source.

I would much rather utilize Fox News, C.N.N., or M.S.N.B.C. because I know they are lying.

And I can decipher their lies easily, a blog however, is an un-vetted source.

Do not forget that not all posters are American, and just because they claim to be American, does not make it so, so that being said there are definitely foreign agents, working on inciting stupidity, ignorance, and violence among us, whether American citizens or whether Agent Provocateurs both foreign and domestic, we must find a legal, non-violent, and realistic means.

Originally posted by Hefficide
Over this period of time I have engaged in some pretty heated debates on these issues. And through it all, I have tried, very much so, to understand the viewpoints of my opposition. Often I have failed at this endeavor, but I have really tried to at least understand even when I disagree. Yet I have failed at this a few times - remaining unable to see how others could become so unbelievably indignant about, or offended by some of these issues. I understand that, to some degree, this is ATS and most of us realize that sensational statements, claims, and thread titles often will lead to many flags and stars... which explains much of the hyperbole. But it doesn't explain it all. So, with that in mind, I have been doing so deep, deep soul searching in an attempt to just understand better some of those who I share this board with.

Before I ever found ATS 5 years ago, I thought I was one of the few conspiracy theorists out there.

But after being on here for 5 years now I often wonder if I made a mistake coming onto ATS.

Because there are definitely different veins of beliefs in how to act while upon this site.

Some want to support illegal actions, like hackers/crackers (criminal hackers), just because it hurts an unjust system they no longer believe in, some people want to support guns, C-4, and a noose through violence, and some want to support groups like Hutaree with killing Law Enforcement Officers, and a very, very small fraction want to do the right thing.

Because of this I only read 1% to 2% of ATS, if that, because I cannot read nonsense.

I am here to talk of conspiracies against America by our Government, not commit them against my country, I am here to speak of the shame our country has brought against itself by illegal actions committed by certain elements of our Government, not bring shame upon my country by committing illegal actions from the fringe element.

While I may speak out about Government atrocities, lies, and conspiracies, I do not let others commit atrocities, lies, or conspiracies against my nation, because while Government and corruption may walk hand-in-hand, at times, it is over all a functionary unit which has no power other than what we as a collective country and community allow it.

Originally posted by Hefficide
It was in this search for understanding that I came to the belief that I am presently of a mind to hold... We are getting played people. We are getting played in the ultimate game of "left / right paradigm" and I think that the ultimate goal of this manipulation is to justify the taking away of our most basic rights. And the game is very, very crafty indeed. We are falling victim to a version of "divide and conquer" of the most insidious and divisive variety.

Of course we are being played.

There are elements within Government agencies which only crank up the stupidity.

Amongst American citizens.

The left-wing/right-wing paradigm is something we have to ignore as it is asinine.

Racial hatred, political partisan bickering, and sheer stupidity all violate one thing.

America.

Originally posted by Hefficide
I think that we are being manipulated and tricked into becoming so polarized that violence becomes inevitable and that this violence will be used as an excuse to limit liberties, suspend rights, and create a perpetual sort of martial law. Think it's ridiculous? Read a few political threads and read the outright and vivid seditious statements being made in them.

I agree with the above statement 100%.

Not just by a manipulative force amongst us.

But by citizens who are too God-damned stupid to know better.

Originally posted by Hefficide
We are being provoked specifically to incite a specific reaction. Our overlords are kicking their pet dog (us) so that we'll bite and they can justify the leash that we are about to find ourselves wearing.It is so brilliant in it's simplicity that I actually am impressed. The way to steal freedom? Tell people that it's dying and the use their knee jerk reaction as an excuse to kill it totally off.

The Hegelian Dialectic in action, abstract, negative, concrete.

Freedom, is an abstract idea, because it means many things, to many people.

Taking away freedom is a negative idea, because surrendering it goes against everything we hold dear.

Losing our freedom is a concrete idea, because we will willingly surrender it, for safety.

Well, sorry, only the ignorant, stupid, and idiots will surrender it for safety.

The intelligent know it is a ruse being played through Security Theater and nothing more.

T.S.A. : Birth of A Monster, Coup Against American Rights, F.E.M.A. Started and D.A.R.P.A. Finished

There is a middle ground where people know not react like the fringe element.

Originally posted by Hefficide
So, as we continue to bicker back and forth in the forums, citing hyperbole, lies, half truths, and opinions, be wary because it is entirely possible that we are all laying the groundwork here for the very thing that so many of us are passionately trying to prevent. By our beliefs and reactions we might very well be breathing life into the very beast that we fear. So, for those who keep saying that they are ready for revolution... Be careful what you wish for because just by wishing for it you might make it our last and only option.

Just some food for thought.

~Heff

A legal and non-violent means is the only option available.

All others will lead only to ignorance.

If people stop paying attention to the bread and circuses it might help.

Thanks for posting this and bringing a little sanity to the boards, Heff. I agree that a lot of what we see could be propaganda directed at people that have had enough in order to inflame emotions to the point that people would take to the streets and start shooting one another, thus giving TPTB an excuse to wipe out the dissenters. Really, though, I wonder how most of the people that speak out for armed revolt would actually act when faced with a human target. It's easy to say that you'll shoot so and so but when it comes down to it, you're aiming at somebody with a family, hopes, and dreams, just like yourself. It's not so easy then. As for an actual fight, I think the average American wouldn't stand a chance. They lack the training that the military has, not to mention the weaponry. In regard to soldiers firing on fellow Americans, I think that it's entirely possible. Let's not forget the Kent State shootings. Reading through the OP and following posts brings a song to mind. I hope that you don't mind me posting it here. It is relevant to the topic. It's Wake Up by Shooter Jennings. Part of the song goes "And they'll try to turn me against you, so divided, we'll turn to them".