Ghosts.... Is There Any Proof, and Why do You believe.

What I am about to say is going to annoy some of you.........

I don’t understand how anyone can believe in ghost’s it just seems so illogical to me. My take on is that if ghosts did exist then they would be everywhere floating about for all to see. As i understand it the “believers” get around this by saying that only certain people can see ghosts, for me that just doesn’t work. It’s a bit like watching a magician walking on to a stage and saying “watch me make this car disappear” only to draw the curtains and drive the car off the stage. Saying that only those chosen can see ghosts only some people think they are of greater worth than others and that argument can never prove the existence of ghosts.

I find the pictures and videos of these supposed ghosts even odder. Why do the believers fall over themselves every time claiming that it is proof of the existence of ghosts. There are quite a few problems with this, firstly anyone can fake a picture or a video these days on a laptop. Secondly dose this not contradict first claim that only the chosen can see the ghosts.

Then we have those who believe in ghosts either because they have seen a ghost themselves or have read the testimony of another who claims to have seen a ghost. There could be a whole multitude of reason that a person has “seen a ghost” they could be drunk, dreaming, hallucinating, have a neurological impairment or a mental illness or they could just be stoned. These explanations are all much more logical then meeting a dead Elvis on the train to work. And to form your beliefs in Ghosts on the basis of somebody else’s testimony is just ignorant unless they have hard proof that they saw a ghost.

All of this also applies to those of you who claim you can talk to the dead on the other side. You know the guys who go and ask Hitler why he hated the Jews so much or the 9/11 terrorists if Bush and Co really did plan out the whole thing. There is no proof of this, it’s just some very clever psychology coupled with a bit of magic.

Also why is that that there are no ghost cow’s??????

Or pigs

It seems that a belief in ghosts is like quite allot of the other strange believes that fly around ATS in that they are almost identical to religious believes. Therefore I would say that a belief in ghosts falls into the same category as a belief in UFO abductions, Reptilians, 2012, predictions and so on. There is no proof yet some people will aggressively defend these believes just in the same way a religious person would defend their beliefs. Yet it is clearly obvious to everybody else that there is no such thing as ghosts or any other paranormal energy.

My question then is why you believe in Ghosts and paranormal energy?

Well, I don't claim to know what a ghost is...I suspect things, but ultimately I don't know.

I find the belief in aliens far more logical than the belief in ghosts...ghosts make no sense, aliens do.

yet I have never seen an alien or UFO yet...however, I have had personal experiences with -something- that I could not debunk no matter how much I tried...the experience can be labelled a ghost experience. I feel like a walking contradiction because I see no logical sense in a ghost as described by the basic understanding of what one is (the conscious energy of dearly departed aunt edna type thing)...yet, of all the absolutely crazy thoughts of it, that seemed the likely candidate on what I experienced.

I find most claims of supernatural activity to be people whom percieve incorrectly, misunderstandings, psychological issues, or hoaxes...however, I keep a open mind considering my personal experiences.

I am not on a crusade to make others believe in whatever it was I experienced (repeatedly)...I accept there are things we do not understand yet, and if joe down the street believes or disbelieves makes little difference to me overall. I would however like to know the absolute truth behind my experiences...yet, after 20 years of contemplating everything from psychotic episodes to the most obscure new age thinking, I have not found any satisfactory answers.

It truely is one of those things that you simply cant believe unless you experience it...and I think there may be some sort of blocking we do in order not to percieve naturally...I don't know...but my experiences always happened when I stopped for a little while and opened my mind (not my intellect...my actual mind) to allow an experience...intellectually, I am always open to experience...however, that is not the same. I have no advice to give on how to achieve a open mind though...it comes often during times of grief and a true core desire to percieve if there is anything to percieve...how you get there however is a murky road filled with nonsense of lighting candles and crystal gazing.

Well, the post title question is actually kind of "loaded" in a way, but I will do my best with my own theories and as a seasoned paranormal investigator. As far as, "Is there any proof ?", that is open to how the research and evidence is interpreted by the community at large. There are mountains of standard photographic, video, and audio evidence out there compiled over the decades for analyzation and scrutinization and have been, not only by accredited researchers and investigative groups, but also by respected members of the scientific communities. Some data and evidence has been debunked, but the majority has not, which still leaves mysteries and questions unanswered. But since the use of sophisticated scientific equipment has been employed into the field of paranormal investigation, we move ever closer to getting those answers to those mysterious questions. Investigators and scientists are starting to make correlations between high electromagnetic and microwave fields and "ghost" or paranormal activity, as well as using tools such as infrared and thermal imaging to catch photographic evidence that cannot be seen in the visible spectrum of the human eye. Which leads me to ascertain, based on the evidence, that just because you cannot see it with the naked eye does not mean that it is not there.

But the fact is that it is there. It is hard to manipulate infrared and thermal imaging without it being quite obvious that it has been tampered with, be it photographic or video. And there are many who talk about "electronic voice phenomena" being a sham or hoaxed, and maybe in some instances that is correct, but not in all. Scientists and investigators have moved past the point of using the standard tape recorders or digital voice recorders to using what is called a "Ghost Box" or "real time" E.V.P. recorders. These devices filter out all available frequencies audible to the human ear and standard recording devices, also signal sending and receiving mediums ..2-way radios, radio station towers, etc. They zero in on those ultra low frequencies that, for all purposes, should not be available nor audible to the human ear. And with these new communication devices, some exciting progress has been made in the pursuit of the truth. They make it quite obvious that there is "something" that is communicating from that very location, even when local power source is not accessible. Not only is it communicating, but it is "intelligently" communicating. They know your name, they answer your questions, often they can tell you who they are, not in a garbled or indistinguishable manner, but as if they were sitting in front of you having a natural conversation.

I am not a psychic nor have I ever claimed to be, but I and a host of others have witnessed these extraordinary events during investigations over the years and at the same time, so one can rule out the whole "mass psychosis" excuse, none of us are insane or mentally unbalanced. I believe that we just had the right tools and equipment for the job and we are finally getting the results we need to make progress in this field because of the advancement of the equipment used. And I cannot speak for every investigator out there, I can only speak from my own investigations and experience, but I do believe that one has to "tune themselves in" to experience what I would call a "genuine or real paranormal event" and have to have the right equipment to document it. I can only speculate as to whether these "individuals" reside on the "other side", though many times they will tell you that they have in fact "died", are aware of this, and that they reside in a dimension unseen by the human experience, yet can communicate and interact by way of "appropriate ambient energy manipulation" which is available across all dimensional levels. And these dimensional levels have been proven to exist, so what is so far-fetched about the possibility that the souls or "spiritual energy" of those long departed from this dimension cannot reside in or ascend to another? And if these are not the souls or energy of the dead, then who are they, where did they come from, and how do they know so much specific information about the "individual" in question or the "investigators?

So who is to say the evidence that hasn't been debunked or proven "fraudulent" isn't actually the "proof" that you require? It may well be or maybe it isn't. I believe that it all comes down to what an individual requires to convince themselves of the truth. Because as we have all seen here on ATS..sometimes the best proof isn't good enough to compel some to believe in something and at other times all it takes is a "shotty" YouTube video. But make no mistake, there are 1,000's of investigators and scientists out there, in the field, who have pure intentions, doing our best to give you the proof and answers that you require. Though we may have already had many personal experiences and documented evidence to prove it to ourselves, we are still going the extra mile to get the kind of evidence that the "disbelievers" and "debunkers" require and we will keep doing it. If we thought that there was nothing to it, then we would just continue to work at Lowe's Home Improvement and go about our daily lives. But we are not doing it for ourselves, we are doing it for humanity.

But to ultimately answer your questions, I believe in "paranormal energy" because I have investigated, measured, logged, communicated with, and documented it on many occasions. And as for why I believe in "ghosts", my investigations and evidence documentations over the years have concluded that I have been in communication with intelligent "spirit energies" that have since passed beyond the plane of a "physical existence" into another dimensional plane beyond our own. They know who they are, who they were, who their surviving family members are, and also how they perished, though they may not understand WHY they are where they are. And that is the definition of a "ghost". The figuring out WHY is the next step in the investigation and research.

Originally posted by kevinunknown
My question then is why you believe in Ghosts and paranormal energy?

I just believe in the ghosts. I don't know what "paranormal energy" is. So I'll just say I believe in ghosts.

Why? cause I saw ghosts. Isn't really more complicated than that.

I've seen about twenty of them over my life and I've been physically attacked and injured by "something" and still have the scars. Guess what? Every time I look at that arm, the scars are still there! Fifteen years later! That's one impressive hallucination!

I've seen them while standing right next to someone else that also saw them and that had been physically attacked and injured by ghosts. Sure maybe it's not a ghost, but according to Occam's razor, hallucination, dreaming, neurological problems and being drunk doesn't fit the bill.

You can't be physically attacked by a hallucination and it's unlikely three people would have the same hallucination at the same time. It's also unlikely three people would fall asleep at the same time in the middle of the day while standing in the woods. It's also unlikely three people would have the same neurological disorder that all kicks in at the same time. Also, I've been drunk, and I've seen a ghost, but I've never been drunk and seen a ghost at the same time. I've never done any other drugs. So, again Occam's razor would rule those out.

They are not the simplest explanation and worse it's not even all things being equal. None of those explain all the evidence. None of them explain the scars. Before you even get to Occam's razor you have to have two theories that both explain all the evidence. None of those theories explain WTH ripped into my skin as other people watched. So what happened?

Well I saw friggin ghosts. That's what happened. You may choose to believe the more complicated explanations, but I have to go with Occam's razor here and say, it was a ghost until a better theory comes along. But what's a ghost? No idea.

Why no pigs or ghost cows? Don't know. Maybe there are. I've heard of ghost dogs? I've even heard of ghost cars and trains.

What were they? Don't know. To me they looked like ghosts. It's easy to believe they're the spirits of dead humans cause that's the explanation most put forth by television and movies, but if you've ever seen one or been in contact with one, they don't act like dead humans. Not how I think one would act anyway. So, after a while I started to think maybe they were something else too, but who knows what?

I don't know what ghosts are so I can't tell you. And I don't really care if you believe in ghosts. Every time I ever had a ghostly experience it ended up with me being either in fear or hurt or both. Nothing good ever came from it. They never told me the secrets to the afterlife or if there even was an after life or if they were humans or aliens or demons or even what the winning lottery numbers were going to be or any other kind of message that you'd think a dead human would want to convey such as, there is an afterlife, or tell my family I'm okay or anything like that.

So were they human? Don't know. And I don't care if you believe in them. Cause nothing good comes from it. If you can go the rest of your life thinking they don't exist and not have to deal with it, you're probably better off anyway.

But as for me I believe in them cause I saw em.

EDIT:
Also, as for online ghost videos/pictures, most of them are fake, and I don't really bother looking at stuff like that because it can always be faked. You've either seen one in real life or you haven't. When it comes to online videos you can catch a lot of them just by looking for the zoom in. If you watch carefully you'll notice the camera guy a lot of times will mess up and zoom right into where it's going to happen, right before it happens. FAKE. In a real situation you would have no way of knowing when to zoom or where to point the camera to get the shot. If it's on a tripod, probably fake. Why'd ya have that tripod set up in your living room??? Your wife really let you get away with leaving it there for four days? Either your marriage is fake or the ghost is lol. My wife would be like GET THAT THING THE F OUTTA THE LIVING ROOM! lol.

reply to post by kevinunknown
I gotta say I don't 'believe' in ghosts and there's very little good evidence. On the other hand, I've had a lot of 'experience events' over the years. Coming from someone some people consider a skeptic or debunker, this might seem a weird thing to be stating. Such things have happened.

I've heard male voices in an empty room. Other people, independently, have also heard male voices in that same room at different times of the day and night. An ex-girlfriend awoke to find a shadow figure move around the bed and appear to look down on her. By the time she'd woken me up, it'd moved through a wall...a wall she didn't know was a studded wall. Years later, in that same room, I was lying awake when something suddenly pattered on my feet through the duvet. Damn near gave me a hear attack. In the daylight, I put it down to a particularly unusual sleep paralysis episode. Some weeks later, my dad slept in that room and was woken up by a cold feeling when something suddenly pattered against his feet through the duvet. He bolted out of there.

There've been other minor incidents over the years. There have been enough that I consider 'ghosts' to be a real experience and that we don't know what that experience means or where it comes from. It's very easy to attack or ridicule people who claim such experiences. Whatever the cause of these anomalous encounters, the 'experience' is very real to the percipient.

reply to post by kevinunknown


I don't know whether ghosts exists or not. But I have strong hunch that they are products of our psyche, because there seems to be people who see them often in their lives and those that never does (like me). I've even went to the places that are said to be haunted and I've seen nothing.

Tinfoilman's account above is of course interesting one. Could you ellobrate more how the ghost attacked three of you? What happened? And please, if you want to tell, be as precise as possible.

-v

reply to post by v01i0


There's not much really to say. It's not super common with regular ghost sightings, but it does happen. But it's a phenomon that if you're into ghost hunting you experience it more. it's when the "ghost" or whatever it is attacks you or touches you. You usually don't see or hear the ghost when it attacks you. But something will push you, hit you, trip you, scratch you or sometimes fling something at you. It's a common misconception that ghosts are never "physical". They can be very physical.

We were on a ghost hunt outside and in the middle of nowhere, something that couldn't be seen left me with three deep puncture like scratches on my arm and it felt like something was holding me with it's finger nails or something, then let go, in plain view of my two friends. One of them faded, but the other two holes are still visible marks if you know where to look. Years ago though they were plain as day. I also used to have a similar mark on the other arm, but not from a ghost. It was from a girl that got me a little too good with her nails while we were wrestling/flirting with each other. That eventually faded away completely though.

Now on other hunts I've been pushed, pulled, tripped, hit, and had stuff fling at me. The only thing notable about this experience is they were deep enough to leave permanent marks. So I can always point to them and say, there they are. I'm not crazy. Other than that, it was just another ghost hunt.

It's a common misconception that ghosts are hallucinations because you only see them. But in fact sometimes ghosts can be pretty physical. For example in one person's house, that was claimed to be haunted, it was common for people to be "pushed" down the basement stairs leading to serious injury or almost be pushed down the stairs by what they said felt like someone was pushing them when there was nothing there. If you don't believe in ghosts then you have to believe everyone that lived in that house had a death wish. But I never experienced anything in that house myself.

Another problem with the hallucination problem is that if it was hallucination, you would expect most ghost sightings to be experienced by only one person even if other people were around. But on ghost hunts it's just as common for two or three people to see the same thing at the same time as it is for only one person to see it. It's a misconception that a multiple person sighting is uncommon. On a ghost hunt they are actually quite common.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Thanks for sharing the story

Well, I remember when we were kids we used to play "hunt the criminal" game or something a like, where we - a group of boyz and girlz - where after imagined criminal. It was commonplace that few of the children would say "there he is" and points into the dark forest or corner and others confirming this and they all run there. I don't know if the guys really saw something, but I never saw anything - but I just ran along

The physciality here is the problem though. Maybe people trip over in dark and easily think that something touched them, because after, they were ghost hunting?

Sorry, I don't want to come out as an idiot, but due the lack of my own experiences (albeit of effort) I cannot be but skeptical. I am now 34 years old and I've never seen absolutely nothing out of the banal reality. I don't want to start debunking your experiences, because they seem real enough for you. I just wanted to share my take on this, because trust me, I'd love to see a ghost or a goblin

-v

reply to post by v01i0


Well I haven't seen anything in over a decade. So, I don't know what the deal is. I've heard something about 7 years ago with a friend, but I haven't seen anything in a long time so I gave up ghost hunting. But I've been on both sides. Someone that's seen stuff, and then someone that never sees anything. I've never seen a UFO either.

Come to find out, I learned a lot of people, even most people, have never seen a ghost. More of them have seen UFOs than ghosts and I just think, yeah riiight lol.

It was surprising to me to find out that almost everyone I knew, has never seen a ghost. If you've never seen one though, or if it's someone else's sighting you can think of a million reasons why it wasn't a ghost and explain it away. But as soon as you see one yourself none of those things make sense because of this, or because of that, or because of something. It's always just so weird that nothing conventional ever really explains it. Now I've debunked more ghosts than I've seen by far. I've debunked maybe 300 ghosts. But it's the other 20 that's the problem.

Kinda like telling someone that's seen a UFO it was really swamp gas. They'll just look at you like you're retarded because swamp gas doesn't do 90 degree turns on a dime at 700 mph kinda thing lol. Sure, maybe it wasn't aliens, but it wasn't no swamp gas neither! lol. Kinda like falling in the woods.

I'm almost 7ft - 290 pounds. You don't fall and forget about it. You remember that! lol. So it's not like I fell and hurt my arm and nobody noticed and then it's a ghost! Someone would have noticed if I fell. Now that doesn't mean it was a ghost, but sometimes when you try to explain it away rationally you start to step into the realm of absurdity. Like everyone fell asleep at the same time and dreamt the same thing! Really? Well that's just absurd lol.

So, it's just one of those things. People are experiencing something but what? Ghosts? Mass hallucination? Mental projection? Until we know what it is, then it's easier just to say, I saw a ghost, but I don't know what a ghost is or I saw a UFO but I don't know what a UFO is or what causes it until we do find an explanation that works cause sometimes saying I saw a ghost, but I don't know what ghosts are, isn't any more absurd than any other rational explanation. After all, the answer might simply be, yes ghosts exist. But we just don't know yet.

reply to post by tinfoilman


I agree, real knowledge is based on personal experience and this is why I don't take any explanation given by others as a fact.

But sometimes even with our knowledge about our experiences can be something else than we may think. For example, if I've heard about ghosts and believe in them, certain quite normal events can become ghost encounters. We should take all the experiences as they are, not trying to explain them with various theories where most of the puzzles seem to fit.

For example, we see a cop beating a black guy. What would we think about it? If we would be white race supramacists, we would think "yea, cool", but would we be black racists, we would think that the cop is doing something bad.. Err, perhaps a poor example, but I tried to show that our prejudices and pre-existing theories about matter of facts affects how we interpret the experience.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
People are experiencing something but what?

Exactly the question that should be asked. Hence I have cast theories out of window and tried to produce personal experience in order to examine the phenomena.

-v

reply to post by tinfoilman
I sympathize with you my friend, a number of cases that we have been called in to investigate were from clients having been attacked. These are the types clients and cases that we respond to the fastest and take the most seriously, especially if children are involved. But you had mentioned that you couldn't imagine that a dead human could or would inflict that kind of damage, but nothing could be further from the truth. It is said that "we are in death as we were in life", so if you were an evil, hateful, violent bastard in your physical body then it is reasonable for those personality traits to remain with you after you leave your physical body. And considering how many "evil" human beings have passed on over the decades, there is no telling how many of them are surrounding us, just waiting for an opportunity to continue those "evil deeds". It happens everyday, but very few are willing to have the courage to come forward and talk about it. But one thing that must be done, you have to document this activity with photographs or video to be taken seriously. Next time you get attacked and you have the "physical evidence" of this attack, have someone photograph it. That way they can attest that it is "real" and though many debunkers and skeptics will scrutinize it, it is much harder to scrutinize hard evidence than it is a personal eye-witness testimony. And if it is true that you see the things that you see, because many people do, the best thing I can tell you to do is carry a camera on you at all times. And when you see something or get the feeling that you are going to see something, start snapping photos. We need all the evidence that we can get in this field, the "unbelievers" have been "foaming at the mouth" for definitive evidence for years, and the more "genuine evidence" that we can present, the more definitive that evidence becomes.

reply to post by openmind444


I don't ghost hunt anymore, but if I did, I would certainly try to get pictures, but it would be pointless. People either believe the pictures/video or they don't.

There is no such thing as definitive evidence or even evidence. There is only belief or non-belief. Certainly you've seen a ghost picture before haven't you? You don't need more, just go look at the ones on the net. Did they make you believe in ghosts or didn't they? If I gave you 100 more ghost pictures would it make a difference? You'll either believe them or you won't. The only thing evidence does is lead to an argument about the evidence. When I ghost hunted, I ghost hunted for fun. Not to prove anything to anyone. I know you can't prove anything to anyone. They just believe what they want to believe.

We have video evidence from multiple angles that planes flew into the world trade center, but people say, there were no planes, they were indeed holograms!!! We have pictures of Holocaust victims and people say, the Holocaust never happened and the pictures were just propaganda.

We have evidence of man made global warming and even the former PRESIDENT of the united states told us, global warming is just a natural cycle and not caused by man. We also have evidence that global warming is just a natural cycle! This CURRENT President says, no it's man made lol. So, which is it? Well just look at the evidence right? Ha.

We have evidence that thermite was used in the trade center, but people say there was no termite and the iron particles isn't evidence. We have evidence of UFOs but people say there's nothing up there. Those same people however would believe in UFOs tomorrow if the President got on TV and said, yes UFOs are real. And they wouldn't have anymore "evidence". All they would have is what the White house says. Those people don't need evidence. They need an authority figure to TELL them what to believe and until their government/religion tells them to believe in it, they won't believe in it.

Let me refer to this thread I saw on Reddit/conspiracy yesterday. It's about the Saddam We Got Em video.
Reddit - Conspiracy - We Got Em.

We have evidence the video was faked because plants in the video were ripe. In the month Saddam Hussein was arrested, those plants shouldn't have been ripe is what some people say. So, what do we see in the thread? Do we see people outraged that the government lied to them? Yes, but only from the people that already believed that. What do we see from everyone else?

We see people arguing about when plants ripen and how fast beards grow!!!! lol. Come on, yesterday we knew when plants ripen and how fast beards grow. Now, today, we have people arguing about it. We're not so sure anymore lol. Now that we have more "evidence" we're more confused than ever. Now we don't even know what month harvest is lol. Evidence just confuses people. It never solves anything.

Like I said, just go look at thousands of ghost pictures that have already been taken. Do they make you believe or not? If not, then will MORE ghost pictures help?

Now, as for ghosts. Go contrast a ghost's behavior with that of someone that's had a near death experience. Someone that's had a near death experience wants to tell the whole world there is an afterlife. There is a Heaven. There is a Hell. They want to scream it from the mountains! They want everyone to know! What's a ghost do? Scratches me and throws books off bookshelfs and makes loud noises at night?? This is how a human being would choose to spend eternity?

If ghosts were really humans and wanted to communicate with us, we would know a lot more about the afterlife than we do now. Sure, there are SOME evil people. But certainly if the dead could commuicate with us, at least one decent person would have come to us by now and said OMG! THERE IS AN AFTERLIFE! The ghost would want to go on Oprah and Larry king and tell the whole world! That never happens.

We have to acknowledge that a ghost's behavior is vastly different than that of a human being who's had a near death experience and so we should keep and open mind. Perhaps they're not human at all.

When you go through all the accounts that people go through, all the stories and just take in everything around you; then you can start to make out the truth. How can the same thing happen to millions of people accounting the same thing. I have a grandfather who lives in portugal who has never seen a paranormal show, hes 84 and lives in an rural part of Portugal. He once told me a story of his and i laughed in his face. He almost hit me that he was so serious. I have a friend here in Canada, that told me stories of her house being haunted and she would wake up cold and something would hold her in bed and i NEVER belived her. Then her two brothers started telling me things that happened to them. Lights flickering, running through the hallways, even cabinets opening during dinner. Then the parents told me that knives while lying around would fly across the room. They lived at this house for 3 months. It was brand new but was made on an old factory. They sold this house because they were so scared. Ive been in there myself and have heard the running through the house. 6 months later and this house has sold twice. So that this means in 9 months that 3 families have gone through this house. Now i cant believe coincidence. Really you got to take it with a grain of salt. Most of the stories you encounter are going to be false but sometimes there are those gems that come through and surprise everyone. Just have an open mind about things.

I've had enough personal experiences in the past that to me, validates some sort of paranormal..things.. that coexist with us. Just a bunch of little things that don't have any other explanation. The most recent was me and my friend were outside my house a few months ago at night. We left my room light on, and we were walking by my room when we both saw a shadow against the curtains that looked like a person. This was like at midnight at my grandparents, and they are fast asleep then, and they never would snoop around in my room at midnight anyways. We both saw it, to boot. Also, in the past I used to get cuts just sitting at my computer. Out of nowhere. I know, it's reaaally far out and crazy sounding, but yeah. Not going to bother arguing how absurd it sounds.. but it just comes out of nowhere, nothing sharp around either.

reply to post by tinfoilman
So basically what you are saying, in a "wishy-washy" kind of way, is that what we paranormal investigators and scientists do is relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things, just because the majority of the evidence that is on the internet is fraudulent or hoaxed? And that evidence that hasn't been proven as fraudulent doesn't even matter because no one believes or would even conceive it as being genuine anyways? So the work that we have been doing over the years to do our best, to not only help these obviously troubled families, but also to advance the research and study of the paranormal field have been nothing more than pissing in the wind, for lack of a better term? If we are not out there doing our best to get the truth and giving you evidence to scrutinize, then who is going to do it? I am sorry that you have never had the opportunity to experience a manifested apparition with your own eyes and that the available evidence and scientific data isn't enough to convince you, and many others of the existence of life after death.

But as I have said, just because you can't see it or it doesn't reveal itself to you in the manner in which you want it to, does not mean that it isn't there. And did you ever stop to think that maybe the "spirits" or "spirit energies" don't feel as though they owe you any sort of explanation as to where they are, why they are, or why they do the things that they do? They are not lab-rats, they were and are still "conscious" beings existing in a realm and in a manner we may never understand. Just because you demand answers doesn't mean that you will get them.

Originally posted by tinfoilman

We have to acknowledge that a ghost's behavior is vastly different than that of a human being who's had a near death experience and so we should keep and open mind. Perhaps they're not human at all.

edit on 21-11-2010 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

And of course a ghosts behavior is going to be vastly different than that of someone who has had a near death experience, those folks have "returned from the dead", a ghost is "still in the realm of the dead". They are not bound by the same physics and chemistry associated with being in a "biologically physical world" or in a "physical biological body"..they now reside in a "metaphysical" world. The rules of existence have changed for them, so there is going to be no Larry King Live or Oprah appearances to be had. The funny thing is people are willing to believe in the accounts of those who have had near death experiences, but are too easily unwilling to believe in "ghosts" and "spirit activity", simply because the "spirit" or "ghost " won't reveal themselves and answer the riddles and mysteries of the unknown to them. And even if they did, the "vultures of skepticism" would just start circling and convince themselves that it is nothing more than a parlor trick, PhotoShop, or a mass psychotic hallucination anyway. So what would be the point? I am more than certain many of these "ghosts" spent there entire lives getting ridiculed and mocked by their peers, so why would they want to come back for another heaping helping of that nonsense, just for the sake of changing the minds of closed-minded individuals?

Originally posted by openmind444
reply to post by tinfoilman

 

So basically what you are saying, in a "wishy-washy" kind of way, is that what we paranormal investigators and scientists do is relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things, just because the majority of the evidence that is on the internet is fraudulent or hoaxed?

The majority of evidence is hoaxed? That statement implies that not ALL the evidence is hoaxed. So if that's the case then how come 100% of people don't believe in ghosts? It's because people believe what they want to believe or what they're authority tells them to believe. Not the evidence. If everybody believed the evidence you would always have 100% agreement. Whatever the evidence says. That's the way its. But we don't have agreement. On almost every issue we have virtually a 50-50 split. So, what good is the evidence when it comes to convincing people if half the people in the world are always going to believe the evidence isn't true?

Now I believe in ghosts because I've seen ghosts. But as for all your hard work to convince or prove to people that ghosts are real? Yes, it's a complete waste of time.

As for helping people. You can help a person regardless of if they believe in the ghosts or not. But when it comes to making them believe? Evidence is pointless. If they don't want to believe they'll disregard the evidence, and if they're ready to believe you don't need the evidence anymore. They already believe and whatever they believe in, they'll seek out whatever evidence agrees with their view automatically and so there's no point in showing it to them.

Gathering evidence is pointless for the purpose of swaying someone's beliefs or opinions. Absolute waste of time. You will never convince anyone of anything they're not already willing to be convinced of. You can however yourself use that information to either make their lives better or make their lives worse, but they'll only believe what they want to believe.

Originally posted by openmind444
And of course a ghosts behavior is going to be vastly different than that of someone who has had a near death experience, those folks have "returned from the dead", a ghost is "still in the realm of the dead".

How do you even know there is a realm of the dead? How do you know they're spirits at all? Some people say they're inter dimensional aliens. What makes your theory any better? Did a ghost sit down and explain to you how the afterlife works, or are you just guessing?

Can you communicate with the dead? Then ask them? Why do they have time to haunt people, scare people, hurt people, but they don't have time to just sit down and talk with us? And if you can't communicate with the dead, then how would you know all that is true?

In virtually all cases the behavior of ghosts fits the descriptions of familiar spirits and demons much better than it does the description of a human being. If you can communicate with the dead and you know about the afterlife, please tell us? Where is it? Who's there? How many people are there? How does it work? How can ghosts move things around? Are they always in the house that they haunt or do they come and go back and forth? Is it like Beetle Juice? Are they trapped in the house because of Sand worms? Who sets the rules in the realm of the dead so that they can't tell us these things? Who's the ruler? How does it work?

They don't want to tell us because they don't owe us anything? Humans don't work like that. Even if 99 percent of them didn't want us to know something, there's always that one guy that would say, this is how that works. This is how we do this. This is how we do that.

The fact that EVERY ghost refuses proves they don't think like humans do. There's always at least one guy that'll break the rule.

They don't behave like humans? Then what makes you think they're humans? What evidence do you have that they're humans and not residual energy, inter dimensional beings, aliens, or demons or something we haven't thought of?

Don't jump to conclusions. If "ghosts" are real all these things are possible. We either need to know for sure what they are, or stop guessing and just say, we don't know.

And as for near death experiences? Logical fallacy. I never said I believed in the near death experiences. It's not required that I believe in them. All I'm doing is contrasting between their behavior. Their experience could very well be false, but regardless of if it was false or not, they believed it happened and therefore we can see how people react when they know for sure there is an afterlife, regardless of if that afterlife was real or not. They believed it was.

Originally posted by kevinunknown
What I am about to say is going to annoy some of you.........

I don’t understand how anyone can believe in ghost’s it just seems so illogical to me. My take on is that if ghosts did exist then they would be everywhere floating about for all to see. As i understand it the “believers” get around this by saying that only certain people can see ghosts, for me that just doesn’t work. It’s a bit like watching a magician walking on to a stage and saying “watch me make this car disappear” only to draw the curtains and drive the car off the stage. Saying that only those chosen can see ghosts only some people think they are of greater worth than others and that argument can never prove the existence of ghosts.

The above said is true, some people have good inborn quality(much virtue and less karma) and their third eye is open. Other people have alot of karma(against the nature of universe) and can see nothing from other dimensions until they transform that karma into virtue(or Gong).

In fact, we know we live in a multidimensional universe, we can only see the dimension between the cell and the planets(stars). Between atoms and molecules there is another world, between molecules of different sizes there are lots of worlds.

Current science can only see dots from other dimensions, which is rather useless. Only human beings have the potential to see the plane of very high dimensions, that means very micro/macroscopic dimensions where higher beings reside.

No proof will exist since this dimension is meant to be delusion. If everyone knew truth everyone would like to cultivate, also the most evil people, and that is not allowed. We fell down here because of wrongdoing and now it is up to each one to enlighten and cultivate up back home. When one has third eye open one will never doubt ghosts, demons, angels etc.

Is it not said in religion that at Judgment all these secrets would be revealed and those who had been good people would make it and the evil people would not?


Try reading the book Zhuan Falun: www.falundafa.org...

Originally posted by kevinunknown
What I am about to say is going to annoy some of you.........

I don’t understand how anyone can believe in ghost’s it just seems so illogical to me. My take on is that if ghosts did exist then they would be everywhere floating about for all to see.

While I can't tell you anything that will make you believe, maybe I can try to explain how the existence of ghosts can be a plausible possibility. I've done decades of related research, and "ghosts" - like everything else that exists - relate to a lot of things that people generally accept as being true. One of those things is God and religion. In fact, if you believe in God, then ghosts should be a no-brainer, since they're just a different term used for a spirit person. Of course, some people think that ghosts can't exist, but have no problem with seeing angels everywhere, and sticking their heavenly noses into everyone's business. I don't know. That kind of thinking makes no sense to me, but that's just me and the requirement for consistency in thought that I deal with. Lots of people don't require that sort of thing.

As i understand it the “believers” get around this by saying that only certain people can see ghosts, for me that just doesn’t work. It’s a bit like watching a magician walking on to a stage and saying “watch me make this car disappear” only to draw the curtains and drive the car off the stage. Saying that only those chosen can see ghosts only some people think they are of greater worth than others and that argument can never prove the existence of ghosts.

What people don't realize is that the human brain can be damaged or malformed, and that the result doesn't have to be impairment. Sometimes - as in the case of genius - it can be enhancement of functionality. There's a very specific reason why some brains can visualize or sense "ghosts" and it has to do with what is akin to a "standing wave ratio" (SWT) that can be a performance problem for RF transmitters. Every RF transmitter deals with a small amount of SWT, and the best a tech can do is tune as much of it out as possible. This is the RF power that is being reflected back, from the antenna load, into the output circuit of the tx itself. It's the slop in the system, since what you're dealing with is a radiated signal.

In the case of a "medium", the brain's radiated signal (Intellect information) is being reflected back at a level that is (basically) out-of-tolerances, and with that reflected output signal, a certain amount of environmental "chatter" can find its way into the mix. The afflicted individual wouldn't notice his/her own reflected information (we experience memory at all stages of consciousness, so what would be the indication?) but a new and unrelated slice of informational stimuli (perhaps from a rogue information source within the shared contextual environment) slips in with the rest of the reflected signal, the brain immediately makes note of it.

It's not a case of the person being special, it's a case of their brain not functioning properly, and reflected output being corrupted by random information that's in close proximity at the moment. A normal brain won't have that kind of "noise" slipping into a reflected stream since what reflection there is, is minimal.

I find the pictures and videos of these supposed ghosts even odder. Why do the believers fall over themselves every time claiming that it is proof of the existence of ghosts. There are quite a few problems with this, firstly anyone can fake a picture or a video these days on a laptop. Secondly dose this not contradict first claim that only the chosen can see the ghosts.

A technology that can translate fluctuations in the molecular arrangement isn't anything new. Geiger counters translate fluctuations caused by molecules of radiation, and no one sees that as something to debunk. Then again, the Geiger counter was originally devised to detect these fluctuations. Maybe if it had originally been invented to perform a different function, when it was discovered to also detect radiation, people might've scoffed at it. Who knows?

Something unique is happening with photography and videotography, and if even 1/10 of the evidence that exists is authentic, then that means that the phenomena is real, and needs to be investigated. Yes, there is a lot of crap out there, but there is also some extremely compelling evidence that only a person whose belief system is threatened by such evidence would be able to dismiss as hoax. And this is due to the fact that the circumstances - as indicated by the clip itself and by the technology allowed by the specific media of some of these clips and photos - prevent such a hoax. Yes, there are those clips, and there are those photos that do exist.

Then we have those who believe in ghosts either because they have seen a ghost themselves or have read the testimony of another who claims to have seen a ghost. There could be a whole multitude of reason that a person has “seen a ghost” they could be drunk, dreaming, hallucinating, have a neurological impairment or a mental illness or they could just be stoned. These explanations are all much more logical then meeting a dead Elvis on the train to work. And to form your beliefs in Ghosts on the basis of somebody else’s testimony is just ignorant unless they have hard proof that they saw a ghost.

You're trying to dismiss thousands of years of testimony from people that live in every corner and pocket of the globe. Witnessing an instance of paranormal manifestation (sight, sound, touch, smell, whatever) is more integral to the human experience on planet Earth than watching TV is. And yet, you feel authorized to dismiss it out of hand, and with no evidence that it has not occurred, other than your own lack of having experienced it for yourself. With this logical basis, 1/3 of the planet can dismiss the existence of cable TV. And yet, it exists.

When dealing with logic, you have to include the weight of extremely well-established empirical evidence. This is because logic demands that you allow for you own circumstantial ignorance, as it relates directly to the ability you actually have to verify your own opinion concerning the veracity of available empirical evidence. In other words, you don't have the ability to verify or debunk anything that has been claimed, and while that doesn't mean that the claims are therefore true, it does mean that you haven't got the information needed to dismiss them. Logic requires that your assertion be valid as well. If not, then the question remains open.

All of this also applies to those of you who claim you can talk to the dead on the other side. You know the guys who go and ask Hitler why he hated the Jews so much or the 9/11 terrorists if Bush and Co really did plan out the whole thing. There is no proof of this, it’s just some very clever psychology coupled with a bit of magic.

Of course, this is just baiting nonsense. If you actually bothered to research the subject, you'd know better than to expect anyone to take these statements seriously. That said, you're right that a lot of people who post on the Internet that they talk to spirits are just - well - they're liars, basically. Most people who make money that way are liars as well. That doesn't mean that there aren't "ghosts". It just means that there are a lot of liars in this field of inquiry. It's set up pretty nicely for those kinds of people to do well. The music business is like that too, but that doesn't mean that music doesn't exist..

Also why is that that there are no ghost cow’s??????

Or pigs

To be honest, this is a lot more complicated to explain than simply saying "Yes, there are cow and pig "ghosts", but...". The bitch is that it took me a good 25,000 words to detail the difference between the human brain's output and the output of non-human (animal/bug/bird/fish) brains, and there's no way I'm getting into that here. If you really give a sh*t then you can buy my book "Taking Down the Curtain" by hitting the link in my signature. It details the logical infrastructure beneath all of this stuff, and doesn't rely on faith for any of it.

It seems that a belief in ghosts is like quite allot of the other strange believes that fly around ATS in that they are almost identical to religious believes. Therefore I would say that a belief in ghosts falls into the same category as a belief in UFO abductions, Reptilians, 2012, predictions and so on. There is no proof yet some people will aggressively defend these believes just in the same way a religious person would defend their beliefs. Yet it is clearly obvious to everybody else that there is no such thing as ghosts or any other paranormal energy.

My question then is why you believe in Ghosts and paranormal energy?

I believe in this sort of thing (not 2012, Reptilians, UFO abductions, or Illuminati though) because I know what it actually is, and what it actually is, is not mysterious or supernatural. In fact, it's extremely normal and recognizable once someone properly explains it to you. The problem is that people look to ancient sources for information, and those sources are idiotic. Those people didn't know sh*t about reality, and yet people think that because they spoke with absolute certainty that they were more knowledgeable about these kinds of things.

Well, the truth is "these kinds of things" are the same kinds of things that we deal with every single day. Making them out to be supernatural because we can't look at them under a microscope is like making wind out to be supernatural because it's also invisible. Both exist, and both have the capacity to impact the corporeal realm, even if wind can impact it a hell of a lot more than "ghosts" can.

When you think, when you react, when you remember, when you have an emotional response, you are - with each burst of generated Intellect - creating the ghost that will live on after your corporeal body has lost its fight for survival. You'll know that ghosts exist at that moment, and it doesn't really matter if you accept their existence before then or not. Each Intellect burst gathers like cells and builds the finished product that you're becoming. And if you want to know what these bursts are like, just sit back and notice your own self as being aware of this moment right now. Each instant of that awareness is what these bursts "feel like". That consciousness is one burst following the last before being replaced by the next, as they all gather as one inimitable eternal being that you're crafting from moment to moment while your busy brain does what it does on your behalf.

Like I said, I know what "ghosts" are, and that's why I know that they exist.