Sweden seeks Wikileaks boss arrest over rape claim

If MR. Assange is intrestd in peace, he would make use of the documents in a manner that would prevent death and force a stop to our actions. The site, and Mr. Assange does not do this, instead releasing the info hapahazardly.

He should be arrested and tried, just as the same who call ofr Bush to be arrested and tried.

I mean after all, neither person took direct participation in anyones death. They simply gave orders and others followd those orders.

Assange is a coward, and should be held accountible for his actions, just as you guys call for this to happen to others. His motiviation is personal, not professional.

I stand by my statements that some of you guys have no concept how the world works, and continue to suffer from rectal cranial inversion. If you think the release of these documents will bring change, then I have to ask what color is the sky in your world?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
If MR. Assange is intrestd in peace, he would make use of the documents in a manner that would prevent death and force a stop to our actions. The site, and Mr. Assange does not do this, instead releasing the info hapahazardly.

He should be arrested and tried, just as the same who call ofr Bush to be arrested and tried.

I mean after all, neither person took direct participation in anyones death. They simply gave orders and others followd those orders.

Assange is a coward, and should be held accountible for his actions, just as you guys call for this to happen to others. His motiviation is personal, not professional.

I stand by my statements that some of you guys have no concept how the world works, and continue to suffer from rectal cranial inversion. If you think the release of these documents will bring change, then I have to ask what color is the sky in your world?

Mr. assange is interested in the TRUTH, which the government sometimes doesn't give up too easily. Bush ordered the death of thousands if not millions counting iraqies on a LIE, Mr. assange has ordered the death of no one he is simply getting the truth out there! His motivation is persenal? Sounds like propoganda to me, you are not assange and only he would know. And i'm not even going to adress the pointless persenal attacks.




You don't know if this will bring change, no one does, because it hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
... you guys have no concept how the world works, and continue to suffer from rectal cranial inversion ...

Information wants to be free ...

Originally posted by Torre

Originally posted by Xcathdra
... you guys have no concept how the world works, and continue to suffer from rectal cranial inversion ...

Information wants to be free ...

And under most normal circumstances you have my complete agreement and support in this area. However, when the release goes beyond the realm of the goal, which in thie case is to do as much dfamage as he can to the United States, there is an issue.

What does the releas eif diplomatic cables have to to do with the war in Iraq or Afghanistan? Not all 400k documents released show any sign of wrongdoing or illegal behavior. The manner in which these files can be taken out of context because not all the info will be present is staggering.

A quick rundown of how classifiactions work.

The NSA develops information through its own system of informants - Classified Top Secret
The Army gets information through its system of informants - Classified Top Secret
The NRO / CIA / etc etc etc develops information - Classified Top Secret

Take all of the information above, and you have a complete view of what is going on in one particular area. However, each agency report contains information the other reports do not, because of collection / source methods.

The release of say Army documents are incomplete because it will not completely reference information from the other agencies.

If you have top secret clearance from the Army, it does not allow you access to Top Secret documents from other Agencies, as it is comparmentalized and on a need to know basis.

It woul be like taking a chapter from The Bear and the Dragon (Tom Clancy novel War between Russia and China) that specifically talks about the actions o Russian forces where they destroy some Chinese forces. Just reading that section alone paints a picture, with absolutely no other reference as to how they arrived at the action.

The Chapters prior to, and after (view them as reports from other agencies) give a clear description of what occured prior to and leading up to the engagement, and the actions taken afterward.

Absent that information, the picture being painted is slanted and incomplete, which allows for different interpretations. To use your own arguments its entirely possible the picture being painted leads to a wrong conclusion that leads to the death of innocent people because the Taliban / Al-Queida do not have all the information.

Which is the exact argument people use, and which was invoked a few posts above, that the US lied (although if you check the released wiki documents it shows there was an active WMD program in Iraq after the 2003 invasion, which justified the actions the US took, but as usual people ignore / play down that info because it does not support their claims and undermines their argument about the US actions).

Mr. Assange is painting a picture to the Taliban / Al-Queida that is incomplete, making him no better than the entity he is attempting to embarass for personal and political reasons. He has no intrest in ending the war, and he knows this. What he is doing is releasing incomplete information to enrage the Taliban / Al-Quedia / Muslims in order to ferment continued hostilities against the US and its allies.

As a member of the "media" and I use that term loosely describing him, he sucks. As a Miniser of Propoganda for the Taliban and Al-Queida, he is compeetant at his job.

reply to post by Xcathdra


What Wikileaks is doing, is giving people the truth.

People have been begging for the truth throughout history and never got it, well, all you Truth Seekers out there; here it is on a platter!

Earth's first Intelligence Agency, made by the people, for the people. Wikileaks, the future of humankind, the voice those who watch the watchers that are watching others. Finally we have peace of mind, finally we have the truth.

No matter what it causes, its the god damn truth, it will ensure in the future that TPTB are less evil than what they are, thank god, because if nobody stepped in the evil would just continue. Im sorry, but that is the truth.

Every corrupt gov/mil worldwide will now think twice, that saves more lives than you could ever imagine.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
If MR. Assange is intrestd in peace, he would make use of the documents in a manner that would prevent death and force a stop to our actions. The site, and Mr. Assange does not do this, instead releasing the info hapahazardly.

He should be arrested and tried, just as the same who call ofr Bush to be arrested and tried.

I mean after all, neither person took direct participation in anyones death. They simply gave orders and others followd those orders.

Assange is a coward, and should be held accountible for his actions, just as you guys call for this to happen to others. His motiviation is personal, not professional.

I stand by my statements that some of you guys have no concept how the world works, and continue to suffer from rectal cranial inversion. If you think the release of these documents will bring change, then I have to ask what color is the sky in your world?

If the unembellished truth hurts you that much you should stop and take stock of your actions.

Truth demands to be declared even if it is ugly and unethical. All great truths begin as blasphemies.
Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable.

oh but let's see your side of it " Propaganda must not serve the truth, especially insofar as it might bring out something favourable for the opponent. -Adolf Hitler"

well you're in suitable company.

reply to post by the_denv


Well lets clear up a few things.

The oldest intelligence entity on this planet is the Catholic Church, not the OSS or the CIA (as a reminder the Vatican is a city-state, and has diplomatic relations with countries, appointing Papal Nunnzios (ambassadors)..

Secondly, if its the "truth" then Bush did not lie about IRaq and a WMD program, since the last round of wikileaks proved there was a clendestine WMD program when the US invaded in 2003, justifing the actions at the time, and making the wikileak disclosure baseless since its based on the premise the US lied in order to wage war.

Last you make a comment about the truth. Again, people are not getting the truth, but bits and pieces of it, since the release is from specific areas, which means it holds particular information that is open to interpretation because other intelligence arms outside the military have the other puzzle pieces.

What exactly do you think these cables / files will show?

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX


If he were intrested in the truth..... Lol

Mr. Assange has stated many times what his goal is, and how he plans to do it. The "truth" is this is nothing more than Assange going after the US for personal and not professioanl intrests (which has been backed up by his current and former employees who have gone on record thet releasing ALL documents was wrong).

He has established himself as wanting to punish the US. Gee I wonder if Assange is leaking all documents, or jsut the ones he feels can do the most damage.

Why do I say this? Because the US is not going to release other classified documents to prove Assange wrong.

All Assange has to do is keep lobbing statements all over the place, and people will buy it hook line and sinker because there is absolutely no way to verify the leaked documents. For all we know Assage is making files up to further his goal of Propoganda Minister to anything non American.

reply to post by Valdestine


Its not truth when it cannot be verified, but instead partial information that does not portray the entire story. The release of these documents will not save lives.

Am I hurt over the release? Not even close....

I take the position that not every single document leaked should be leaked. Not every single document is going to be evidence of a crime (and I love the war crime argument since its not enforcable).

The release of Diplomatic Cables is irrelevant to Assnages state goals. Diplomatic Cables are between the US Representative to the country they are in. They are going to deal with very candid information about their host country, just as ALL countries on this planet do with their Ambassadors.

People on these forums are so quick to jump on a band wagon of conspiracy driven delusions involving the US Government, that sometimes objectivity is lost.

He has established himself as wanting to punish the US. Gee I wonder if Assange is leaking all documents, or jsut the ones he feels can do the most damage.

So the list of BNP members was released in order to hurt america? Please explain how that works.
So the Scientology documents were released to hurt america? Please explain how that works
The love parade planning documents were released to hurt america? Please explain how that works
The icelandic financial crisi documents were released to hurt america? Please explain how that works
Peru oil scandal? Toxic dumps in africa? Internet censorship lists? Somali assasination orders? Please go on. Tell us how all of these were releaserd with the sole intent of hurting america?

And you have the sheer nerve to dare call anyone else delusional?

reply to post by Valdestine


Uhm yeah, if you read what I typed you would see a consistent pattern that not all documents he released are related to Iraq or Afghanistan. My argument is with that area, and has continued to be in that area. My argument has been the release of war documents, and now Diplomatic Cables, are going to cause more harm than good and will not save lives, but continue to cost lives.

If you want an answer though the release of those unrelated documents reveal sources and methods of intelligence gathering, including analysis by experts in that area. The reports keep the Government informed of what is going on in other countries throughout the world. Even if you perceive a leak as minimal, its not going to be to the person / people ffected by the leak. A point people seem to ignore.. You guys want the info because of the argument you have a right to know.

What gives you that right?

People argue the Government goes to far when making decisions that will affect people, up to and including unilateral action. The same question hold to Assange.

Who gave him the right to decide unilaterally that people need certain information?

My argument has been Assange is not releasing these documents to stop the war, but to do his best to "stick" it to the US. His own Employees have stated this, in addition to Lamo:

As much as Lamo says he hates the abuse and overuse of the word "nation security", he says that the leak constituted a real threat. He points out that the diplomatic cable contained conversations that would likely be taken out of context, much like what would happen if your full email record was leaked and all your friends, family, and coworkers found out what you were really saying about them. Lamo states, "On a scale of nations [the creation of] a hostile environment can cost lives."

The New York Times interviewed Assange on August 14th, 2010. During the interview:

Assange admits that he sought to sabotage Petraeus' plan "before it reaches implementation" and thus "end the war in Afghanistan."

How is sabotaging a plan going to save lives? Or did Mr. Assange mean he wants to save the lives of anyone but Americans?

For those who think his leaks will not cause people to die:

Kenyan 2007 elections

The leak exposed massive corruption by Daniel Arap Moi, and the Kenyan people sat up and took notice. In the ensuing elections, in which corruption became a major issue, violence swept the country. "1,300 people were eventually killed, and 350,000 were displaced. That was a result of our leak," says Assange.

How does Assange view this?

It's a chilling statistic, but then he states: "On the other hand, the Kenyan people had a right to that information and 40,000 children a year die of malaria in Kenya. And many more die of money being pulled out of Kenya, and as a result of the Kenyan shilling being debased."

So its ok to be irresponsible with information because people die every year of disease and money.

The view of Julian Assange in terms of people making decisions based on lies or ignorance is telling. Its easy to play Monday morning quarterback with the benefeit of 20/20 hindsight. What does Assange think about state secrets?

The other key thing about WikiLeaks is that it's internationalist in the true sense. "We do not have national security concerns. We have concerns about human beings," says Assange

I don't know how to get some of you guys to understand what I am trying to say. The best example I can give is Assange is the Cop on patrol who witnesses a crime. Instead of dealing with the crime, arresting the suspect, doing the report and submitting it to formal channels for charges, he draws his gun and executes the criminal on the spot while making the argument the suspect is guilty because of what he observed. However, its not the entire story, but one side of it.

reply to post by Xcathdra


You keep on and on repeating yourself, explaining us, what Assange should do and doesn't do and therefor is bad.
Obviously every straw is good enough for you. Above you even quote Adrian Lamo, who was talking about his chat with Manning in May, without having any clear idea, what was in those cables.

But anyway. Wikileaks won't care for your little world. We will see what the next leaks will do or not do when they are in the public.

reply to post by Siddharta


It bares repeating because you keep ignoring it. Assange is running his own agenda based on personal opinions of what he views as morally right and wrong without having all the information. People are so blinded by their desire to stick it to the US at any cost that they ignore the overall ramifications.

The release of these documents is going to be viewed using the term "leap of logic". If you are not familiar with it I suggest you look it up.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Siddharta

 

It bares repeating because you keep ignoring it. Assange is running his own agenda based on personal opinions of what he views as morally right and wrong without having all the information. People are so blinded by their desire to stick it to the US at any cost that they ignore the overall ramifications.

The release of these documents is going to be viewed using the term "leap of logic". If you are not familiar with it I suggest you look it up.

Okay, now I take issue with your comments.

Assange is not operating based solely on his own moral opinions, he is REFLECTING THE MORAL OPINIONS OF THE MAJORITY.

People are basically good, but there are a minority (usually in positions of power and authority) who think that their nation is somehow more important than any other, and that this gives them license to roam the Earth murdering, stealing and basically behaving however they wish.

Believe it or not, we are not all war-crazed egomaniacs hell-bent on controlling the planet for our own ends. Most of "US" would be quite happy to leave the politicians to gain their glory and profit however they wish as long as it does not involve our nation being viewed internationally as despicable specimens of Humanity.

And remember, this will affect the UK, and every other nation in the coalition. So rather than accuse us all of being "Anti-American" (cheap shot, but it works for your politicians so why not use it, right?), try to consider the possibility that our moral position is actually more important to us than "sticking it to" your nation!

I couldn't give a rats ass what this does to America. The people who make these decision are the ones responsible.
I hope my own government is dragged through the mud where appropriate.

If you don't want to face the blame for immoral and potentially criminal actions, DON'T ACT IMMORALLY OR CRIMINALLY!

Finally those making such decisions are under scrutiny, and long may it continue! It's about time these people were answerable to their own public.

reply to post by Xcathdra


It's only embarrassing how you are barking at the tree, Xcathdra, trying to find any silly statement that could somehow be used as foothold for your views, no matter who said it when and in which context.

Meanwhile things go on. The media worldwide is reporting about the expected disclosure and it is said, that it will be released on Sunday at 10:00 pm GMT.

Stop whining about that and if you cannot accept reality than better hide under your bed.

reply to post by Xcathdra


That is very.... illogical

Nice avatar, it explains a lot.

reply to post by detachedindividual


I did not accuse any member here of being anti American. I did say I dont think people adequately grasp the underlying issues and the ramifications.

Assange is doing this based on his own moral values, as he does not speak for every person on this planet. He has made the argument many times to different interviewers that his intention is to undermine the US war effort, and is doing so in such a manner that is going to get more people killed. The documents do not reflect the entire picture, and the Diplomatic Cables are falling into the same boat.

And again, since people have ignored the info that wikileaks released, Iraq had a clandestine WMD program that was active up to the 2003 invasion. This info actually backed the intelligence conclusions, which validated the attack on Iraq since they were in violation of UN resolution.

So the argument the war in Iraq was illegal is out the window thanks to Mr. Assange. Funny enough people who have been debating with me have conviently ignored this.

I wonder why....

Again you guys are not looking at the entire picture, but only the parts you want to see.

reply to post by Siddharta


Which is exactly what you guys are doing as well. I posted the interview with Lamo because its relevant to this discussion. Since his assesment about the relase of the info talks about the damage to National Security, its releveant to the discussion and specifically talks about the Diplomatic Cables, where he says the release will do more harm than good because they are going to be taken out of context.

A Diplomatic Cable that specifically addresses an illegal topic - It would make sense to bring those to light.

Releasing a Diplomatic Cable that talks about corrupt Russian Politicians is irrelevant. Releasing a Diplomatic Cable that discusses issues in China, is irrelevant.

As I said, Assange is running his own agenda under the guise of some moral crusade to stop war when in reality he is doing everything he can to cause as much damage as he can.

If he were truely interested in the truth and stopping the war, he would of went over the documents with a fine tooth comb to locate the damning documents to make his case. Instead, its a bulk release that covers a multitude of areas. Its contrary to what he publicly states as his goal and will cause people to be killed because he has no concept of the damage he is causing.

and you guys cheer him along...

Originally posted by the_denv
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

That is very.... logical

- Fixed

Originally posted by the_denv
Nice avatar, it explains a lot.

All it explains is the people who run Serta have an active imagination when it comes to sheep. Ironically yet not surprising your avatar nicely sums up your side. Seeing a conspiracy around every corner, expanding the realm of paranoid to epic levels. Seeking the truth while ignoring the facts that don't support the conspiracy. Absolute refusal to believe anything the Government says because they are always out to do evil.

Agendas to the left, parnoia to the right, and the sane people stuck in the middle.

reply to post by Xcathdra


You edited my post, that explains a lot of your character too. Regardless, stay on topic.

Concerning me and my avatar, HELL YEAH! After all this is a conspiracy website and community and I am neither left or right, so then I am in the middle; ah I see thanks for explaining that

Imagine that eh? A conspiracy theorist in a conspiracy forum.