Jonah and the Whale OR Dagon the Fish God?

Originally posted by Alethea
All of the ancient texts specifically speak of a "great fish" when referring to Jonah's story, but somewhere along the line, a transcriber decided to give that fish a name and changed the wording to read "whale" instead. Could it be that this was deliberate in order to obfuscate the real connection and what may have actually transpired in history?

The Hebrew text of Jonah 2:1 (1:17 in English translation), reads dag gadol (Hebrew: דג גדול), which literally means "great fish." The Septuagint translates this into Greek as ketos megas, (Greek: κητος μεγας), "huge fish"; in Greek mythology the term was closely associated with sea monsters.[7] Saint Jerome later translated the Greek phrase as piscis granda in his Latin Vulgate, and as cetus in Matthew 12:40
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In his 1534 translation, William Tyndale translated the phrase in Jonah 2:1 as "greate fyshe," and he translated the word ketos (Greek) or cetus (Latin) in Matthew 12:40 as "whale". Tyndale's translation was later incorporated into the Authorized Version of 1611. Since then, the "great fish" in Jonah 2 has most often been translated as "whale".

en.wikipedia.org...

Why is this one word of translation so important in connecting the dots? One word can change the truth of history into something that sounds like a ridiculous far-fetched fable. Is this image below the picture of a man swallowed by a fish? Is the man not "in the belly" of the fish?





The above is an image from a stone laver from Assyria. Dagon, being a fish god, would of course be of the mind that water is holy; therefore he sprinkles the Holy Water. Dagon was a Philistine deity who was half-man and half-fish.


Is it possible that the Dagon Priest was actually Jonah from the Jonah and the Whale story?

Jonah's destination was Nineveh; this was the capital city of Assyria. The ancient images of Dagon are from Assyria.

Jonah came from an area called Gath-hepher. "Gath" means 'wine press' as in the sense of "treading out grapes". Gath was one of five chief cities of the Philistines and a native city of Goliath. In some translations, it is said that Jonah came from Gitta-hepher; Gittite (from Gitta) means "belonging to Gath.' Was Jonah a Philistine?

edit on 18-11-2010 by Alethea because: (no reason given)

The philistines didnt inhabit gath, furing Jonahs time.

You should read up more on your bible. The philistines had been ousted - see the story of David.

As for the whale and Jonah.

I own a book that discusses the mystical ideas in the book of Jonah, and it has nothng whatsoever to do with the god, dagon. If you want to read it, its called "the Navi journey - book of Yonah". It takes excerpts from Jewish Midrashim (ancient mystical homilies on the Tanakh), and the kabbalah, to help explain the narratives in the book.

The fish is simply a symbol. Not everyone who uses the fish as a symbol means it in precisely the same way.

First, Yonah means "Dove" in Hebrew. Hes a symbol for the soul. The Dag Gadol, great fish, is the world of souls, which the soul gets 'swallowed' by. Ninveh is a symbol for this world, the 'Ir Gadol', great city. The book of Jonah allegorizes the souls contempt for coming into this world. It doesnt want to, and in fact desires to simply cling to the divine. But G-d tells the soul, "yonah", that he MUST come. This is G-ds great city, his great creation, and the soul must realize its being put in this world for a reason.

Ill explain some lines of significance..

Then Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.


This symbolizes the mystical, transcendent state - which is allegorized as being "east" (towards the source) of the great city (this world). The booth is a spiritual state which the soul can repose in. Its an allusion to the 'self', "under its shadow", is the shadow of the self, meaning hes not completely in it, because hes still tied to a body. "till he might see what would become of the great city". The great city is this world. This line is describing an ascetic attitude that doesnt want to be involved in this world.

"And HaShem G-d prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his evil. So Jonah was exceeding glad because of the gourd. "

This was the experience of the divine presence which 'hid' Jonah from the apprehension of this world. But this "kikayon", as its called in Hebrew, is also a symbol made to prove a point.


"But G-d prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd, that it withered. "

The hebrew word for worm, is related to the word for 'crimson'. Its an allusion to the evil inclination. In other words, the 'gourd' his apprenhesion of the divine presence, withers, when the worm, the will of the body, interjects.


And it came to pass, when the sun arose, that G-d prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and requested for himself that he might die, and said: 'It is better for me to die than to live.'

This alludes to the influence the soul has on one after hes been tainted by the influence of the 'worm'. The fact that it 'burned his head' indicates that it affected his mind. He wanted to become completely absorbed in the divine unity up above. and.


And G-d said to Jonah: 'Art thou greatly angry for the gourd?' And he said: 'I am greatly angry, even unto death.'

The gourd is the divine presence. Hes angry that it departed from him, and he would prefer to die than be exiled in this spiritual state.


And HaShem said: 'Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow, which came up in a night, and perished in a night;
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and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?'

Hes saying. You didnt create the divine presence. G-d did. What you experience of it is what G-d prepared for the soul to experience of it. Likewise, G-d created Nineveh, this world "the great city". Hes basically making a deep philosophical point. Just as i am responsible for the goodness of the divine presence, so is there great goodness in this world, waitingto be uncovered. The cattle refers to 'fallen sparks' of holiness in this world. And the people who cant 'between the left and their right" alludes to the need that people like Jonah, who are spiritually awakened, have to go into this world to enlighten people to the difference between left and right.

The book is remarkably deep and perhaps my explanations dont do it justice. I would suggest you read that book i suggested if youre interested. It does a more thorough job explaining it.

Originally posted by Alethea

When the disciples (NT) asked Jesus to give a sign of when he would return, he answered them saying that it would be a wicked generation and that for that reason no sign would be given it except for "the sign of Jonah".

Maybe when he said the sign of jonah he meant the age of aquarius.

reply to post by bismos



Maybe when he said the sign of jonah he meant the age of aquarius.

that would be pretty strange

since yonah means dove in Hebrew.

The only relationship "Jonah" has with aquarius is a fish, which lives in water. But wouldnt a fish be more relevant to pisces?



Mod edit: quote of previous post replaced by "answer to" link.

Originally posted by dontreally

The philistines didnt inhabit gath, furing Jonahs time.

I was referring to the etymology of the word. I was not saying that the Philistines inhabited Gath-heber. Still, those living in that city could have been descendants or Philistines could have left their influence behind in some way.



I found your contribution to the thread remarkably interesting.

Originally posted by dontreally

Hes a symbol for the soul. The Dag Gadol, great fish, is the world of souls, which the soul gets 'swallowed' by.

And as the "great fish" is also indicated to be a "sea monster" and as sea monster, serpent, and dragon all seem to be interchangeable and visual references often have embellished characteristics of all these things in one creature, this reminds me of a post I saw earlier today using this imagery which exactly describes the esoterical meaning you have described above.






It seems that perhaps it is us who are being eaten by the powers, dictates, and cares of this world. They surround and engulf us.

The downward pointed dove is also used to represent fallen angels.

Originally posted by dontreally

"And HaShem G-d prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his evil. So Jonah was exceeding glad because of the gourd. "

This was the experience of the divine presence which 'hid' Jonah from the apprehension of this world. But this "kikayon", as its called in Hebrew, is also a symbol made to prove a point.

The gourd aspect of the story has always been a curiosity to me. The explanation you provided from the book only leaves me with more questions as I do not find it satisfactorily articulate.

I appreciate your response and taking the time to answer. It was an interesting read. I think I will look for that book.

Originally posted by Alethea


And as the "great fish" is also indicated to be a "sea monster" and as sea monster, serpent, and dragon all seem to be interchangeable and visual references often have embellished characteristics of all these things in one creature, this reminds me of a post I saw earlier today using this imagery which exactly describes the esoterical meaning you have described above.

That is true. Tanninim, meaning 'sea monsters' is synonymous with the dag gadol.

And so liviathan is connected with the Dag Gadol.

The gourd aspect of the story has always been a curiosity to me. The explanation you provided from the book only leaves me with more questions as I do not find it satisfactorily articulate. I appreciate your response and taking the time to answer. It was an interesting read. I think I will look for that book.

And also, Leviathan is identified with the 'cares' of this world.

This is why its explained in kabbalistic literature, his 'spouse' Behomot, was killed. Behomot, meaning 'animalistic' obviously refers to the dionysiac like indulgence in the 'cares' of this world. The Rabbinic sages say "if they were to unite, the world would descend into chaos".

Its also said that the righteous 'eat' of leviathan in the world to come (alluding both to the after life, and the future, messianic era). Meaning essentially the bask in the pleasure of the good deeds they performed in this world. The 'impressions' of each of their actions, words and thoughts, which affirmed unity, is the 'food' of their afterlife.

Book of Yonah expresses an atitude that isnt necessarily good; namely, asceticism. Sure, the ascetic isnt evil and infact becomes a saint. But G-d is saying that this world exists for a reason, and we should not seek to live outside it, but instead integrate into our experience of divinity.

The gourd, Kikayon in Hebrew, is a very strange word. The rabbis translate it as a 'leafy plant', the popular choice being a gourd. It is a mysterious symbol. I think its being used as an example for how Yonah should be looking at this world. So i think a more proper interpretation would be his 'spiritual growth'. Yonah knows that his growth is not due to him, but G-d. He was granted the ability to 'shade himself' from the worries of this world with the gourd. But the gourd(his growth) infact was being tended by the divine presence. Likewise, this world involves even greater wisdom and wonder. Just as Jonah realizes that G-d was responsible for the 'gourd' he recieved pleasure from, so to G-d put even greater energy and wisdom in building up this world. Just as it 'hurt' Yonah, to lose the gourd,, that is, his spiritual awareness, which brought him pleasure. Likewise, it would hurt G-d to see this world separated or 'destroyed' when human beings dont appreciate it for what it is - a habitation for the creator.

Thats the point i think being conveyed.

Note, that the entire theme of the book of Jonah is how a Hebrew prophet, Yonah, was shirking his role as a prophet of G-d. He was running away from it. So, it makes sense that the final point of the story would be to explain to Yonah, the soul, the divine purpose of this world, Ninveh, as a habitation for G-d.

reply to post by Calender


Great video, I enjoyed that. Perhaps those who have questions and truly seek the truth can find something in that.

don'treally,

Thank you for sharing that information. I found it very interesting.