Hadron

Nothing to fear... literally.

Hadron.

For those of you new to this one, Hadron, AKA: Large Hadron Collider or LHC, is a very large ring designed to smash particles together at nearly the speed of light to achieve who-knows-what. But... hopefully the Higgs bosun... also known as the God Particle.

So, a brief rundown:

Hadron wasn't the first superconductor (big smashing ring thingy). It is, however, the largest in existance. Sort of. Texas had a supercollider commissioned that was 54 miles in circumference. That's 87 km for you insane people that use the much more intelligently designed Metric system. Long story short, the budget came into question, in 1993 and "Desertron" was given the axe. Congress also cited the poor management of the facility.

Desertron wanted to produce 40 TeV of collision energy. Hadron wanted 14.

More info on the TX Supercollider.

Some crossover data with Hadron: THe physicist who was heading Desertron is also involved in the ALICE project with CERN.

The reason I bring up Desertron was not because I lived in Waxahachie during this thing's construction phase. It's because I remember the money being pumped into the area, the excitement of the locals, and mostly, the deep-seated intrigue that came with something so vast. What could we learn from this thing? I was a teenager then. I don't remember anyone worrying about wether it would end the world.

Anyways, moving on. There are other supercolliders, but the biggest at the moment is the LHC. People were afraid that it was going to take out the world by black hole, explosion, or creating a rift into another dimension full of marshmallow pudding. I made that last one up. But what a sticky way to go, right?

The SSC, the ISR (which was LITERALLY, the grandfather of the LHC...), the SPS, and others were Hadron's ancestors. All-in-all, I'd say they had a pretty good kid that didn't go on to destroy all of creation. Most of these proton-whackers are CERN projects. To give you a basic overview, please see this comparison of CERN projects...

So, what comes next?

Very Large Hadron Collider's Superbunch Idea...

Good read, I gave S&F hopefully other people will read this but probably not because the title wasn't along the lines of : "LHC TO KILL EVERYONE". The LHC has always interested me since I've first read about it, and watch a few documentaries about it. This was a well laid out thread and very informative. I am not scared of the LHC causing a black hole, or destroying the world, hopefully it helps us out.

I was unconvinced of the black hole theory after I realized how massive our Sun is and observed that it was not a black hole. Black holes need a lot of mass to suck things in also.

Thus when compared with the spec of dust known as the LHC, it became obvious that there is not enough mass involved to be of any true danger.

But, it may be capable of opening a dimensional rift to marshmellow universe. That would be a sticky way to go out for sure.

Interesting read. S&F. The LHC is an exciting instrument and I agree that as a species we need to continue to explore the unknown. As Carl Sagan said- "We are the way for the cosmos to know itself". Particle physics and the Standard Model is an intriguing and beautiful model and I personally feel it will shed light on a lot of the mechanics of what we see.

The idea of a black hole is still viable if you bring in extra dimensions. In theory a black hole can have any mass above Planck Mass. A black hole is a concentration of energy or mass where the escape velocity exceeds the speed of light.

Granted our star is too small and won't collapse into a black hole and if you consider 3 spacial dimensions then you need a vast, VAST collider to even come close to creating a micro black hole.

In theory though, with extra higher dimensions, it is still possible to see the effects of creating a micro black hole in the energy ranges that the LHC is colliding hadrons at... although it will evaporate rapidly (the smaller the black hole the quicker it evaporates). So we could observe a spray of particles as the micro-black hole evaporates which would be interesting but hasn't happened as of yet.

You are right though, it has had a fairly smooth power up for such a vast an complex instrument. I hope it continues to batter hadrons for a while yet. It's also had some interesting stories relate to it

reply to post by Arrowmancer


I personally found this alarming... The LHC is a machine of extreme hot and cold. When two beams of protons collide, they will generate temperatures more than 100 000 times hotter than the heart of the Sun, concentrated within a minuscule space. By contrast, the 'cryogenic distribution system', which circulates superfluid helium around the accelerator ring, keeps the LHC at a super cool temperature of -271.3°C (1.9 K) – even colder than outer space!

LHC Magnetic field 8.33 Tesla
Earth field is 0.00005 Tesla
Is there nothing to worry about a artificial machine that produces more electromagnetisim then the planet it is located on??? Um Just Sayen

Originally posted by Arrowmancer
Hadron.
For those of you new to this one, Hadron, AKA: Large Hadron Collider or LHC

Since I'm not new to the topic of LHC, let me note that your statement is nonsense. It's the same as saying that:

Gasoline, AKA Car.

Hadron is a word reserved for a class of strong-interacting subatomic particles. Don't mess with terminology.

Hadron wasn't the first superconductor

Superconductor is the word reserved for a class of materials that exhibit no electrical resistance to the passing current. Your statement reads same as "cheddar cheese was not the first rat".

Sort of. Texas had a supercollider commissioned that was 54 miles in circumference.

Commissioning when applied to scientific instruments is a word reserved for commencement of operation. As such, the SSC was never actually commissioned and its construction was never finished.

Desertron wanted to produce 40 TeV of collision energy. Hadron wanted 14.

Particle accelerators don't have free will or intelligence hence can't "want" anything.

Most of these proton-whackers are CERN projects.

Really? Until recently the most powerful machine was the Tevatron at FNAL.

Then, of course, you have the Super Large Hadron Collider , which is basically an upgraded LHC. You'd think these people could invest some money into a decent website. The simplicity and lack of Java is appalling.

If you want flashy graphics, check out NickJr.com or other such site. Who needs Java to list a set of basic documents, for God's sake? On second thought, if you want to help with money for Web development, send a check to Atlas.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Hadron is a word reserved for a class of strong-interacting subatomic particles. Don't mess with terminology.

More accurately a Hadron (from the Greek "hadros" meaning "thick") is a composite particle made up of quarks and anti-quarks and can be broken down. The (anti)quarks are held together by the Strong Nuclear Force which is what the LHC is attempting to exceed. For comparison a Lepton (from the Greek "leptos" meaning "fine"), such as an electron, is a fundemental particle in itself and, as far as we can see, cannot be broken down any further.

Originally posted by strangequark

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Hadron is a word reserved for a class of strong-interacting subatomic particles. Don't mess with terminology.

More accurately a Hadron (from the Greek "hadros" meaning "thick") is a composite particle made up of quarks and can be broken down. For comparison a Lepton (from the Greek "leptos" meaning "fine"), such as an electron, is a fundemental particle in itself and, as far as we can see, cannot be broken down any further.

Gluons are equally important in giving hadrons the properties, ans besides, glueballs don't fit quark classification while still being subject to strong interaction.

reply to post by buddhasystem


It's true the gluons are responsible for transferring the strong nuclear force between the quarks. Glueballs... I haven't looked into; thanks for giving me another area to research. I'm only at the beginning of my journey

Edit:
Oh yea, gluons are also subject to strong interactions! So they are responsible for the transfer of the SNF but because they carry a colour charge they can hyperthetically be combined to create a composite particle. Thats nuts!

Please make any alterations to that if it's inaccurate. It's definitely how I learn

reply to post by buddhasystem

Since I'm not new to the topic of LHC, let me note that your statement is nonsense. It's the same as saying that:

Gasoline, AKA Car.

Then, quote possibly, the introduction to those who aren't familiar with the topic probably wasn't for you, buddhasystem. As far as calling the LHC Hadron, I'm fully within my rights as a being capable of independant thought, to call it Rubber Duck, if I wish. I have as much right to call it Hadron as you do not calling yourself Siddhārtha Gautama Supreme Buddha System.

Superconductor is the word reserved for a class of materials that exhibit no electrical resistance to the passing current. Your statement reads same as "cheddar cheese was not the first rat".

Not quite. As Hadron is designed to convey and accellerate a stream of particles from one location to another, the term superconductor is just as valid as supercollider. It's the difference between function and purpose, but neither is wrong.

Commissioning when applied to scientific instruments is a word reserved for commencement of operation. As such, the SSC was never actually commissioned and its construction was never finished.

Since the entirety of your post is centered around irrellevant linguistics, I'll take a moment to educate you, good Sir.

com·mis·sion (k-mshn)
n.
1.
a. The act of granting certain powers or the authority to carry out a particular task or duty.
b. The authority so granted.
c. The matter or task so authorized: Investigation of fraud was their commission.
d. A document conferring such authorization.

Definition given at www.thefreedictionary.com...

As the SSC funding was granted, the project started, the building started, the scientists brought on board, and a purposed was given for it, it was commissioned. It was never finished, but that has nothing to do with the project itself being commissioned.

Particle accelerators don't have free will or intelligence hence can't "want" anything.

Outstanding observation. I don't know why this escaped me. Still, as I'm sure your highly evolved mind has come to realize, this post wasn't written for those with a PhD in physics, nor did I attempt to insult anyone's intelligence with it. It was simply made to inform people and nothing you've said to this point has added or detracted a single thing from the original post.

Really? Until recently the most powerful machine was the Tevatron at FNAL.

You're absolutely correct, again! I should have put a disclamatory word in there, somewhere! Like the word 'Most' at the very beginning of the sentence. 'Most' does not mean 'all'. I had a list above that sentence and lumped many of the collision projects in with CERN. Not all.

If you want flashy graphics, check out NickJr.com or other such site. Who needs Java to list a set of basic documents, for God's sake? On second thought, if you want to help with money for Web development, send a check to Atlas.

I actually laughed out loud at the NickJr.com comment! Well done, friend! As such, the comment about the lack of java was meant to be light-hearted. I'm obviously no match for you in the wit department, and I sincerely apologize to you for the offense.

Now, since you've added nothing to my original post, poked fun of my sense of humor, and attempted to repeatedly fix something that wasn't broken, allow me to address you on the issue of your post. If you had something relevant to add concerning CERN, the LHC, the history, future, danger, or wierdness, then I would have responded in kind. But, in a very negative way, you attempted to split hairs for no real purpose, other than to make yourself look good. I'm sure that anyone reading this reply post will tell that your plan may have backfired.

I would appreciate it if you added information or critical thought, or even some links to information I didn't post. Discussion of the project that would lead me to find more information would be welcome as well. But being argumentative just to stir the pot... that isn't welcome. Please, have a seat. Discuss Hadron with me. If it bothers you that much, I will honor your request and call it the Large Hadron Collider or LHC... out of respect for a fellow thinker.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

Is there nothing to worry about a artificial machine that produces more electromagnetisim then the planet it is located on??? Um Just Sayen

Your post has intrigued me greatly! Thanks for slapping it in here. As far as I can tell, there's actually no harm in the electomagnetics. We are capable of producing heat many times that which the sun is capable of. Light rays more intense than anything we've observed in the heavens. We can create life, alter genetics, put our bodies in places they were never meant to go. (Like the moon, the bottom of the sea, and Volkswagons... DISCLAIMER: the previous sentence was meant as humor and is in no way to be implied that Volkswagons are not meant to convey humans from one destination to another. I respect the engineering and capabilities of the Volkswagon and have enjoyed many Herbie movies.)

Looking at this from another standpoint, one of the larger 2012 conspiracies has alot to do with the fact that there is a large hole in our magnetosphere. When the sun starts doing it's little crazy-dance (Yes, I know that the sun does not dance, nor is it capable of being mentally unbalanced), it might do us some good to have experience creating massive magnetic fields that might eventually save this planet.

The only problem I've had with Hadron was that people are saying "these reactions happen all the time in nature" I agree, but not under these conditions and not using the mechanisms we're using. Still, I'll get more in-depth on this one.

Thank you, Ophiuchus 13

What about the creation of stable di-baryons? Are we entering a grey area when the LHC is ramped up to full power? We certainly don't know all there is to know about quarks and quantum theory. There may well be an esoteric side to this stuff, but few Scientists think about it on that level. I don't think we're in any real danger, but you never know, you know.

reply to post by deadred

What about the creation of stable di-baryons? Are we entering a grey area when the LHC is ramped up to full power? We certainly don't know all there is to know about quarks and quantum theory. There may well be an esoteric side to this stuff, but few Scientists think about it on that level. I don't think we're in any real danger, but you never know, you know.

As far as stable goes, the theory is that once the dibaryon is formed, it would be stable. If that happens. You stated yourself that we can't know what's going to happen. When we start throwing around quantum theory, what it comes down to is a lack of knowledge. We know something in the realm of possibility is there, but we don't know enough about it. So we build machines to learn. Like Hadron.

The point of the LHC was to create, in a tightly controlled environment, conditions that lead to an expected result. A place where the variables could be minimized and we could study both the cause and effects. Since there is no computer powerful enough to extrapolate the trajectory of every known and unknown particle, we can assume that the LHC can create a strangelet, a black hole, or a wormhole as readily as it could create a bowl of macaroni and cheese, the entire written works of Shakespeare, or a miniature replica of the Eiffel Tower.

In the end, dibaryons, quarks, strangelets, singularities, and very large explosions, are all a possiblity, however miniscule. And they are possible because we're not 100.0% certain of what the outcome is going to be when we hammer those particles together. But we're pretty certain it isn't going to be Doomsday or we wouldn't be doing it.

I appreciate your post Deadred... I hope someone else can respond with mathematics but I've not understood a thing I've read on it this far.

A single example

reply to post by Arrowmancer


Anytime my friend.
2nd

Originally posted by deadred
What about the creation of stable di-baryons?

There are plenty of stable di-baryons in every soda (or beer) that you are drinking. They are called deuterons. Beer still tastes pretty good

Originally posted by deadred
What about the creation of stable di-baryons?

For clarity:
Dibaryons are large composite particles made up six quarks of any flavour usually similar in number as opposed to a normal baryon which consists of three quarks.

One idea is that you can create strange matter which consists of up, down and strange quarks (also known as a hyperon). However, because the strange quarks are heavier than the up and down quarks the particle is unstable and will decay rapidly and lose it's strangeness resulting in normal matter that consists of up and down quarks.

Here is where the possible problems start- it is hypothetically possible to create a stable form by combining two hyperons to make a dibaryon particle that consists of six quarks (up-down-strange-up-down-strange: consists of strange quarks and two of each flavour). The bigger the strangelets the more stable they are. This could happen under enormous pressure in heavy ion collisions where strange quarks and antiquarks are formed from the kinetic energy of the collision (pair creation). The strange quarks combine with up and down quarks to create hyperons, and these hyperons could combine to create stable strangelets. Usually these strangelets are positively charged and so will repel matter and if they are created they will most likely melt at the temperatures in the collision. However, if they are actually negatively charged and don't melt then they will be attracted to normal positively charged matter, and upon interaction with the nucleus cause the normal matter to form strange matter which will cause any other normal nucleus, upon interaction, to form strange matter and so on and so on until eventually the earth turns into a hunk of strange matter. Ice-Nine disaster.

There are plans to see if strange matter is created but most likely we will not observe the creation of this matter. So it is very unlikely that the ice-nine disaster will occur.

This is what I can make out anyway. If it's inaccurate then please correct me.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
They are called deuterons

The reason deuterium is a dibaryon: it is another form of hydrogen atom that also has a neutron along with its proton. It still has the same charge but is heavier. A proton consists of Up-Up-Down quarks and a neutron consists of Up-Down-Down quarks. 6 quarks in the nucleus with equal numbers of quark flavours (3 of each) which, if we use the definition above, is a dibaryon.

Again, just for clarity just because it's interesting

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Arrowmancer

 

I personally found this alarming... The LHC is a machine of extreme hot and cold. When two beams of protons collide, they will generate temperatures more than 100 000 times hotter than the heart of the Sun, concentrated within a minuscule space. By contrast, the 'cryogenic distribution system', which circulates superfluid helium around the accelerator ring, keeps the LHC at a super cool temperature of -271.3°C (1.9 K) – even colder than outer space!

LHC Magnetic field 8.33 Tesla
Earth field is 0.00005 Tesla
Is there nothing to worry about a artificial machine that produces more electromagnetisim then the planet it is located on??? Um Just Sayen

edit on 11/16/10 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

Actually, the Earth's magnetic field is 3.1E-5T.
LHC can hit 8 T, but so can the MRI you get when you hurt a knee.
A Tesla is a derived unit. It speaks to the density and not the absolute quantity of the field. A Tesla is equal to one Weber per square meter or 10,000gauss. In 2003, Kumada and Iwa#a in Japan made a 6.0T permanent dipole magnet. The world didn't end. For specifics, see accelconf.web.cern.ch...

Do a scientific explanation of how 8 Tesla can harm anything.

Oh, HADRON.

I'm sorry, I thought this was another TSA groping thread.

/rimshot!
//try the veal, I'll be here all week