The Quasi-Fascist roots of Zionism

reply to post by bigyin


IT has Begun ......... Imam Al-Mahdi is Coming Soon ........

reply to post by HollowJacket


No, there's no Israeli equivalent to the pledge of allegiance..

Now that I think of it, America seems to me, an outsider, more Christian than Israel is Jewish.. You've got your TV evangelists, you've got your red neck states, and while today's a bit different, think about the 70's, the 80's.. Think about the 50's- God was inseparable from American society.. If you listened to Rock and Role, you're a satanist, if you listened to Kiss, you're a satanist, computer games, TV violence..

How do Americans feel they have the right to judge us?

I'm nothing, really, not left, not right, not center.. It just feels like they're all a bunch of assholes.. I just want peace, security, and equality.

www.green-party.co.il...
They seem up to date..

Israel is a very green country anyway..
And it's hard for people to care about environment issues, when all we care about is security and to conflict.

reply to post by babloyi


How can it be for show? It's not like the Arabs are prevented from voting..

Everyone gets to vote, but the majority of Arab population doesn't go to vote, and have even boycotted elections, while the Orthodox communities all go to vote, and often cheat.

And it's not barely 7% it's 12%- 14 out of 120.. Much closer to the 20%..

Look, it's a democracy, it's not perfect, it never has been, but it's the best we could think of..

Yes, there's discrimination, but it's not supported by law..

Why are you so quick to assume that Israel, or that Israelis are so much different than you, or America?

There's no discrimination in America? The blacks and the Caucasians? Hispanics? Gangs? Red states vs. Blue states? Democrats and republicans? Christians and Muslims?

Really? And you think Israel is worse because it discriminates against a nation it went to war against?

reply to post by Eliad


My apologies...turns out my statistics were of the muslim members of the Knesset, of which there are 9. You are right in that there are 14 arab knesset members, which is 12, closer to 20 than 7.5, I guess.

Now that I think of it, America seems to me, an outsider, more Christian than Israel is Jewish..

reply to post by Eliad


It probably seems that way because we are a much larger country and there are alot of people with little will to go against the grain of society...Many of us don't have much else to keep them going than a faith in a higher power. It's the easiest thing to just "have faith". I'm not going to throw out words like "brain-washed" because people make their own decisions, but weak-minds can be manipulated easily. Maybe its easy to understate the "Jewishness" of Israel when you live and breathe it every day.


As far as televangelists are concerned:

The savior who wants to turn men into angels is as much a hater of human nature as the totalitarian despot who wants to turn them into puppets.
Eric Hoffer

reply to post by babloyi


It wasn't about the numbers.. Statistics lie, they don't tell a story..
Who knows why there aren't 20% Arabs in the parliament, could be a million reasons, the important thing is that the Arabs get to vote equally, and there are no laws that discriminate them..

And as for discrimination? It happens, it's wrong, but it exists all over the world..

I guess my question is- Why is it so easy for you to assume that Israel is that different than any other country in the world?

reply to post by HollowJacket


Maybe it seems that way because all I know on America comes from TV shows...

But maybe you think Israel is so Jewish because you get your information in much the same way...

Maybe it's easy for you to understate the Christianity of America when you feel it is somehow "under control" when in fact Christianity practically controls your country from what it seems...

Let me as you this- Does America have any Muslim senators? Openly gay? Hindu?
How about governors?

How many republicans would you say are *not* Christian, and do not live and think according to Christianity?

Would you say there's a bias against Arabs in America? Against Muslims?

reply to post by Eliad




Barney Frank openly gay

Keith Ellison openly Muslim

Satveer Chaudhary Openly Hindu

And This will sound stereotypical but I feel that there is very little coverage of Israel in the mainstream media here, positive or otherwise, compared to the strife occurring globally. Granted, when they are in the news it's usually because there has been a terrorist attack or an incursion into gaza to prevent one/retaliate against one, but other than that its business as usual, super best friends forever .
And the internet can be a spurious place to get your information about Israel to as we know from some of the characters here thats why I TRY to be objective about most things

reply to post by HollowJacket


Keith Ellison was born and raised a Roman Catholic, though, but I guess it makes little difference.. Is he the first? Is he the only one?

Same goes for the gay and Hindu senators- How many of them are they? (I'm sure they're not the first ones)..

What does that show you about America?

Why was there such a big deal about people thinking Obama is a Muslim?

Wouldn't you say there's bias and prejudice against Muslims in America? Against Arabs? Against Blacks?
Do you cross the road when you see a bunch of Black people walking towards you? Do you feel most Americans would?

reply to post by Eliad

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by babloyi

 

I guess my question is- Why is it so easy for you to assume that Israel is that different than any other country in the world?

Hahahha...personal bias, probably. But then again, everyone's got to have their little pet "problems" to talk and complain about. If everyone's is different, then it all gets spread around evenly, and things in the world get fixed!

Seriously, the reason I think it is different is that Israel insists (to the point of prosecuting someone if they disagree) that it is both democratic, and jewish, a thing that cannot be true simultaneously, and thus seems a bit hypocritical to me. What does it mean to be "Jewish"?

Saying they're a race of people is obviously wrong, but if someone were to agree with that, then Israel would definitely be Fascist (and not really democratic), in it's support of one race vs another.

My personal understanding of jewishness is that it is a religious thing, but then again, many people claim to be "jewish" who don't follow anything to do with judaism. If my definition were to hold, then to be "jewish" would be to follow the Hebrew bible, which again, wouldn't really make it a democracy.

Wikipedia defines the jewish people as an "ethnoreligious group", which is just as confusing. There can be a person who converted to Judaism, who wasn't ethnically jewish, and they'd be considered "Jewish". There can be a person who's mother is jewish, but doesn't practice the faith. They'd be considered jewish. There are so many permutations with so many answers. I wonder if there are any muslims out there who consider themselves jewish .

However, in any of those situations, an arab muslim (for example) would probably not be considered jewish in any sense of the word. What does it mean to an arab muslim if one had to swear an oath of loyalty to Israel as a jewish state? What does it mean when the government states that it would possibly favour one of its "definitions" (being jewish) over another (being democratic)?

reply to post by babloyi


The most Jewish Jews, that is those who follow their bible (Torah) to the letter, and can sometimes be identified because they wear the black clothing, black hat etc .... these Jews are known as Haradi.

Oddly enough Haradi are against the existence of the State of Israel, they do not support Zionism.

The reason as far as I can undersatnd at the moment is that the Torah says that they cannot enter their promised land until the messiah gets here.

The Torah says that the Jews cannot force the creation of Israel or the promised land by war .

Therefore from a religious point of view the most Jewish people are dead against Israel as it is.

These Jews also do not have much time for any other people calling themselves Jews.

On the other hand Zionists, or more precisly Secular Zionists, and these are the people currently running Israel, are actually against religion itself, and would like to see religion done away with.... hence they are known as secular. They support the current regime, and are all in favour of using force and violence to achieve their ends.

I havn't worked out what their ends are, as it seems odd that they want to achieve a Jewish State but they don't support the religion. Presumably they see Jewishness as a race not a religion.

So even within Israel and beyond there is division between Jews themselves as to the correct or best way forward.

Its a fascinating subject. Which I'm still learning, so I might not be completely right in some things I say. But I'm willing to learn from anyone more knowledgable.

reply to post by Eliad

Wouldn't you say there's bias and prejudice against Muslims in America? Against Arabs? Against Blacks? Do you cross the road when you see a bunch of Black people walking towards you? Do you feel most Americans would?

Excuse me if this seems terse
There is alot wrong with this but let me just say No, I am not a bigot, I wouldn't "cross the road if i saw a black person", and no, I don't personally know anyone that would.


Bias and predjudice against Muslims stems primarily from the woes of your country, our biggest ally, which suddenly became the woes of our country on September the 11th.

And thats where bias and predjudice against your country come in. "The Enemy of my Enemy is my friend" would apply here but I'm not sure I can express which side would apply to whom.


This thread is off topic. I am glad it has turned into a discussion where we can learn about each others respective countries and view points and I look forward to continuing that in the future, hopefully.

reply to post by bigyin


I feel like this might let me bring this back around to a reasonable direction.

I knew I was going to open a can of worms with this thread, I just wanted to bring to light that things aren't always what they seem, and people affect ideologies the same way that ideologies affect people.



Yes, Jabotinsky was radical and had what could be construed as a fascist outlook, and I would like to ask another question regarding that, and that is whether or not Israelis consider him to be a "founding father" of sorts.

NO, his opinions and actions were not popular with the Jewish left, they viewed him with great suspicion and worried he would take Zionism and run with it in a completely different direction.

Did he? We can conclude that Revisionist Zionism is just one aspect of a multi-faceted ideology. Hence the "Quasi" in the title.
There are a huge number of people in the Jewish diaspora that do not reflect his veiws, or the ideals of Zionism at all as bigyin pointed out. I can bring Neturei Karta to mind here.


To shore up my position here, one more quote from the book "Terror out of Zion" by J. Bowyer Bell 1977

The Zionists, especially the Zionist left, wanted to beleive the worst, hated and fear the revisionists with a passion they could no longer conceal. Jabotinsky to them was little better than a cryptofascist, the Betarim his militaristic bodyguard. The first Betarim parade in Jerusalem on October 13, 1928 had marched between crowds howling insults. Jabotinsky did not always suffer fools gladly; his ideas were often more lucid than many of the old revolutionary dogmas imported from eastern Europe; he had often been proven right by events-these facts grated orthodox sensibilities.

I'm also pissed that we managed to spell "prejudice" wrong multiple times.
second line

reply to post by babloyi


Why must being Jewish come before Democracy? It is democratic first, and Jewish second. It is Jewish mostly because it has a Jewish majority.

Now how is that different from the U.S? You celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Hannukah.. That's the whole difference in a nut shell.
Think of everything that's identified with Christianity in America, does that make it undemocratic? There were protests against a Muslim center being built too close to Ground Zero, does that make America undemocratic?

Ask yourself this- Are there any laws in Israel that oppress any minority?

This pledge thing is not a law yet, and it's never going to be.. It's too stupid and half of the people who voted for it are now taking it back, why? Because it served a purpose- In this time of settlements evacuations, and freezings the government is trying to please everyone.. Even the extreme minorities..

On America's front you have the don't ask don't tell thing- Clearly a Christian, homophobic law, while in the Israeli army openly gay people can do whatever they want.
In French, for example there *is* a law that forbids women from wearing the Muslim body cover! What the hell??

So you base your whole opinion on this stupid not-even-a-law?

How would an atheist feel when he recites the American Pledge of Allegiance?

The reality on the ground is much different than what it seems on TV.

reply to post by HollowJacket


lol Hey! Don't blame us for your people being intolerant! When it wasn't the Arabs it was the Russians, when it wasn't that it was the Germans, and when it wasn't that it was I don't know who... The Indians I guess

So come on, how is American prejudice and bias any different from any Israeli ones?