JT Round 1. Spy 66 vs Pinke: Calendar Clash

The topic for this debate is "Overall, the Mayan Calendar is superior to the Gregorian Calendar.”

Spy 66 will be arguing the "Pro" position and begin the debate.
Pinke will be arguing the "Con" position.

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Hallo every one.

This is my first debate on ATS. And I know this is my opponents first time as well. With this I which you good luck and a memorable experience.

Drifting two separate debates at the same time is a time consuming job to accomplish. All honor to all the people who makes this happen for members of ATS. Thank you all very much for doing this for us.

I hope this will be as interesting for all of you as it is for me.

I hope what I present with my work will be of use-full knowledge to members who find special interest in this topic. What I am about to present is probably not what most of you would have expected when it comes to this topic. The way I present this topic is important to me because it’s how I view and understand it.



The Mayan Calendar is superior to the Gregorian calendar.


This is going to be a tough one to debate because a calendar is not actually about superiority. But it rather describes how a society or a civilization established its culture through time, based on its geographical location.

To really high light my side in this debate I have to start out by explaining what a calendar really represents.

A calendar is a agreement within a society or a civilization to determine season, time and day.

Why?

Because a Calendar is the absolute dead center of any civilization. Because everything within a civilization, revolves around its own calendar. That is the true difference between the Mayan calendar and the Gregorian calendar.

This is very important to understand. Because the Mayan calendar and the Gregorian calendar differ from each other based on: consciousness, location, history, society and civilization.

Consciousness, location, history, society and civilization are the main reasons why we have a Mayan and a Gregorian calendar.

Consciousness always has a location. As does the Mayan calendar and the Gregorian calendar. They originated at different locations at different times by two totally different civilizations.

Why does consciousness play a vital role when it comes to a specific calendar?

It plays a vital role because consciousness is oriented by two considerations. A Consideration is a decision on how things are where you are. It’s about how you view time at your geographical location.

Consciousness is also what separates the Mayan calendar from the Gregorian calendar.

The Gregorian calendar does not directly connect with the human consciousness like the Mayan calendar does, but rather the motion of physical objects. Like the time earth uses to orbit the sun.


What I have mentioned above is what I am going to use to describe why the Mayan calendar is so important even to us who fallow the Gregorian ways. You will probably not see the value of the Mayan calendar right away because this is not what you had expected.

Spy66

This will be a most interesting debate.

For the purposes of comparison I will be comparing the Gregorian calendar to the Mayan Haab until further directed by my opponent (though I suspect my opponent may choose to discuss the Tzolkin calendar). The Haab is the Mayan solar calendar and is therefore directly comparable with the Gregorian solar calendar. I am aware of the other facets of this calendar and am prepared to discuss them with my opponent when the need arises.

I sympathize with my opponent’s position with this debate, but do not concur on the interpretation of the question. The Mayan /Gregorian calendar comparison very much is one about superiority, yet I am left wondering how my opponent will substantiate this argument? For myself, for a tool to be superior it must have more uses, or at least more important uses. I cannot see this with the Mayan calendar.

If we take ourselves back to ancient to the time of the Aztecs and Maya we find ourselves falling through a canopy of clouds into another world. The very stones they laid were placed with the time of year in mind, feasts and harbingers of doom and ill fated luck, and new beginnings ever fifty two years – fifty two years that most Mayans were lucky to see. The Mayan calendar was a calendar relevant to the people of its time based on their understanding of the life, and their own expectations; a culture that feared that every 52 years might be their last new beginning. It is now, aside from decorating the annuls of history, somewhat irrelevant to our modern life.

The Gregorian calendar, which is the calendar we now use, is a much simpler and more stream lined tool which I will demonstrate throughout this debate. It is eternally more relevant than the Mayan to the average person. It isn’t just any other generic calendar for administrative, religious and commercial purposes … it is our calendar. It tells us our seasons. It tells us when the football is on. Its cycle is based on our current life. I cannot see how such a calendar could be usurped by the Mayan calendar on the basis of being relevant.

And I will now introduce you to my new favorite blog. The 2012 hoax blog is maintained by many people but notably includes many astrophysicists and astronomers. The following facts taken from this font of information must be noted in this discussion of accuracy and relevance:

1. There is not an integer number of days in a year (365.2524 days per year)
2. There is not an integer number lunar cycles in a year (12.3683 lunar cycles per year)
3. There is not an integer number of days in a lunar cycle (29.53059 days per lunar cycle)

Following these facts … no solar calendar can therefore be accurate without leap days unless it does not want to account for seasons . The Mayans therefore saw no problem with seasons shifting over the courses of the years. Furthermore, with the rotations of our astral bodies constantly changing ever so slightly the Gregorian calendar compensates for this whilst the Mayan calendar never has. Without any system of leap days/years the Mayan calendar has an error rate of 1 day every 4 years; meanwhile the Gregorian calender predicts seasons and such reliably.

Therefore, in this opening statement alone the relevance and accuracy of the Mayan calendars have been brought into question which appears to leave much of this debate in the hands of the Mayan religious calendar perhaps. However, we are not ancient people requiring priests to interpret the signs or the seasons for us. We are now in this century more educated and less easily controlled by numerology and other such hocus pocus. I hope my opponent has not chosen a case based on this alone.

I will submit that some may fall for the charms of the ancient race with knowledge of the stars still to this day. We grasp at romantic allusion of the ancients who knew it all and were spiritually more in tune with a fantastic universe … However, I will put forth that ancient doesn’t necessarily mean better, and all the romantic allusions and mystic conclusions in the world cannot make up for a well made and thought calendar giving us control of our own fantastic lives.

I await my opponent to further the case and wish them luck.

As I mentioned in my opening post, it’s not actually about who’s calendar that is more superior. A calendar is a time line that is proper for the consciousness of the people who have created it. It is based on a functional culture and their way of life at a geographical location in time.

The Gregorian calendar is not more superior then the Mayans. The Gregorian worshipers “ Catholic church” have physically enforced their dogma on the Mayans by force. By Colonization.

It was the Spanish weapons that were more superior to the Mayan civilization. Not the actual calendar.

The calendar clash has to do with a secondary disagreement “the dogma”. It was about who is right and who is wrong. This was initiated by the Catholic church not by the Spanish. It was a culture crash based on geographical differences in culture and believes.

The Spanish defeated the Mayans because they were better armed. Not because they had a superior calendar.

The new calendar is the product of defeat and new rulers.

New laws and believes got enforced, the old laws and believes were destroyed. This is how the whole Mayan civilization and culture was destroyed.

It’s not without reason we call the Mayans the Masters of time. They lived with time. The Mayans have displayed their view of time in such a way that it’s almost too unreal for us to grasp.

By naked eye observations, they created extremely accurate astronomical calculations. So accurate that they were equal, or more precise than any other civilization of “their time”. Even to the Catholic church of that time. It was not until present time and day that we could actually acknowledge this with our science and astronomy. Back then no one had the knowledge to challenge the knowledge of the Mayans. It was a physical war between the dogma of two cultures for the right to have it their way. It was not a intellectual question of who was right or who was wrong.

The principle of the Mayan calendar is based on consciousness, and how consciousness culture evolve through time. It is more equal to our understanding of evolution of culture than it is to our present principles of understanding what time is.

Gregorian time is about the exact measurement of earth orbit around the sun. The 365.2425 days cycle. And that is basically it. We have basically no idea what time is apart from it being the measurement of physical things moving through space.

All other ancient indigenous calendars had something in common, they all had a 360 days calendar. What were their reason for having a 360 day calendar?

Maybe they were looking for something other than just earth’s motion around the sun. Maybe they were paying attention to something more than just physical evidence, or maybe physical evidence on a totally different scale?

The Mayans had three calendars. They had one for the 365.25 day earth cycle around the sun “The HAAB”. The Tzolkin which is a 260 days long calendar. And then the Tun calendar, which is a 360 day long calendar.

These three calendars had three different functions to the Mayan civilization. The function that the HAAB calendar had was for one purpose and one purpose only, for paying taxes. It was the book keeping calendar of the Maya. They were a agrarian society , when could they pay their taxes? When their crops came in. The HAAB was mainly used by the city state to gather taxes after harvest.

The Tzolkin and the Tun was the very center of the Maya civilization. Like the Gregorian calendar is to our civilization today.

The Tzolkin was a personal and a astrological calendar to the Maya. The Tzolkin have 13 intentions on the part of creation and 20 different aspects of creation represented in their calendar. This = 260 days.

The first name that the Maya gave their child was the name of the day which they were borne on. That is how personal this was to them. The Maya had this idea that being as you are spiritual you have a choice of which day you become physical. Why would this child choose one day over another to become physical? Because it agreed with its intentions for this life and what it planned to demonstrate as its aspect. Every single Maya came in to this life knowing exactly why they were here. “We have no chance in hell to grasp this because this is not a part of our Gregorian teachings”.

The Tun is known as the divine or the prophetic calendar of the Maya. This calendar is also most known to the members her on ATS. It is a 360 days calendar.

What I am going to talk about next is how the Tzolkin and the Tun calendar interact. Because the big question is: what were the Mayans really timing?

Stay tuned this is going to get a lot more interesting

Reply one

Originally posted by spy66
The Spanish defeated the Mayans because they were better armed. Not because they had a superior calendar.

My opponent asserts that Spanish weaponry was the death knell to much of the Mayan civilization, and their downfall had nothing to do with their calendar. Normally such a statement would be irrelevant to the comparison of the calendar but it so happens it is incredibly relevant to my own argument.

I take you back to the time of Her-nando Cortes who discovered the Mayan nation. Moctezuma, the Mayan high priest, was lord of over 200, 000 warriors at the time Cortes arrived. A time when the sword and shield were still used in common usage. Even with Spanish technology advantage Cortes would have struggled to fight off such an attack by such a large force. Why then were the Mayans caught off guard???

The first answer lies in the Mayan calendar and their belief in the mythical Quetzal Serpent. It just so happens that Cortes’s arrival was also the end of a calendar period; traditionally this is the time that the serpent would be most likely to finally return as prophesised by the Mayan priesthood. The Mayan’s were caught unawares as Moctezuma welcomed Cortes possibly even as a returning God welcoming him and his army into the heart of their city. The Mayans even complied when Cortes demanded a chapel be built – a Christian home in a pagan land built by men who thought they were conversing with the emissaries of the Gods. (Daniken, 2010 & en.wikipedia.org...) This is all the more likely given the Mayans let the Calendar dictate many things in their lives including when to go to war and times of woe and bad luck.

When the Spaniards finally struck the Mayans were busy celebrating their religious festivals. Unarmed and unprepared they were slaughtered. Even after the initial slaughter according to many reports Moctezuma refused to act and encouraged retreat amongst his countrymen and parley with their invaders. He was eventually stoned to death by his own people who lost faith in their own high priests interpretation of the calendar which had failed them along with his attempts to placate the Spanish. (en.wikipedia.org...)

The Gregorian calendar empowers the people to take control of their own lives and decisions … not to rely on the directions of priests and false markers. If the Mayans had kept their calendar with more than a foot in reality instead of dripping with superstition and religious significance perhaps they would have survived to this very day and not been at the hands of a high priest.

My opponent further states that the Haab calendar was used only for the function of paying taxes. It is also, unfortunately, the closest calendar that the Mayans had for predicting seasons. Due to their failure to adjust the Haab to compensate for decimal point at the end of 365 days their calendar was next to useless for predicting seasons as commented in my opening statement. The poor Mayans had to rely on their Jaguar priests to provide information regarding seasons, planting and taxes. This left the Mayan people once more at the mercy of ill informed and controlling religious bodies.

Originally posted by spy66
By naked eye observations, they created extremely accurate astronomical calculations. So accurate that they were equal, or more precise than any other civilization of “their time”.

My opponent asserts the accuracy of the Mayan calendar in their time however, as stated previously … Even the Roman Julian Calendar which was replaced by the Gregorian was more accurate over time than the Mayan calendar.

From: www.2012hoax.org...

The Mayan calendar was particularly accurate for its time and place. We have already indicated above that the Mayan calendar was not as accurate as the Roman Julian calendar. When compared to the solar year, the Julian calendar had an error rate of 1 day every 128 years. The modern Gregorian calendar is substantially more accurate, with an error rate of 1 day every 3,300 years.7 In contrast, the Mayan calendar, which did not use any system of leap days, had an error rate of 1 day every 4 years when compared to the solar year.

When I see the Mayan calendar all I see is a device with which to control people. To weaken people. To make them bow to the will of an elite. Something which we here at ATS desperately attempt to avoid!

My opponent confirms this in the presented case.

Originally posted by spy66
The first name that the Maya gave their child was the name of the day which they were borne on.

Originally posted by spy66
The Maya had this idea that being as you are spiritual you have a choice of which day you become physical. Why would this child choose one day over another to become physical? Because it agreed with its intentions for this life and what it planned to demonstrate as its aspect. Every single Maya came in to this life knowing exactly why they were here.

This sounds remarkably like an effort to control a population by mysticism and religious knowledge. Modern scholars chide societies which give people a forced reason for existence. Over hundreds of years caste systems have been eroded, freedom has been encouraged yet this calendar my opponent is promoting is nothing more than a device with which to preach … ‘this is your lot, this is your purpose, there is nothing more.’

Astrology and various other institutions of hocus pocus exist to this day using the Gregorian calendar, but they certainly don’t have the sway our poor Mayan brothers had to endure. Perhaps I would have been known as ‘September Pinke Moore’ in the time and location of Mayans … and perhaps I would have been forced to endure a purpose selected for me by a soon to be deceased priest with my tragic life expectancy unlikely to reach past the 52 years of one of my sacred calendar’s cycles.

My opponent asserts that the Mayans were perhaps looking for something within their dating system. I fail, at this point, to see what this is. Further to this, this Mayan calendar system was not created by the Mayans themselves but likely inherited from other civilisations (en.wikipedia.org...). So perhaps we are all chasing our tails? The Mayans translating another people’s efforts before theirs, Christian missionaries fumbling for meaning amidst the remains to report to his church and homeland, and us picking up the mistranslated pieces in our hands with the true meaning running between our finger tips like so much ash and sand.

I will agree with one of my opponents statements. “We have no chance in hell to grasp this because this is not part of our Gregorian teachings”.

And this is a good thing! If we were to grasp it we would be clutching at the straws of surrendering our life to numerology and superstition.

Reference List

www.2012hoax.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
Twilight of the Gods, Erich Von Daniken, New Page Books, 2010
en.wikipedia.org...

I need to use my 24 hour extension.

Before I go on I want to state a correct statement about a calendar. Which my opponent wasn’t aware of.

A calendar is a control mechanism no matter who’s calendar it is. Free will is the ability to have a choice, to be able to pay attention to whatever is important to you, whenever it is important to you. Both calendars are created to limit peoples choices of free will.
Your life revolves around a calendar just as it does to everybody else. Yours and everyone else’s free will is limited to a very tiny private space of time. Most of our time revolves around the duties and tasks that we by Gregorian law have to fallow.


Now I am going to tell you why the Maya calendar is way more superior to the Gregorian calendar.


To figure out who’s calendar is more superior we have to know what type of time line each one of them is trying to map.

It is easy to know what time line the Gregorian calendar is mapping. Just 1. It is just mapping present time only. Earth physical motion around the sun. That’s it.

The Maya calendar is mapping a totally different time line. A totally different concept of time all together then the Gregorian calendar is doing.

The Mayan calendar is so accurate and so true that it baffles everyone. Especially now that we know more about It and the human civilizations past and present time.

People might wonder why the Tun has 360 days cycle and what it is based on. No planet, or moon moves around our sun in 360 days. So it has to be based on something else?

The 360 days cycle is based on that every planet and every galaxy through our whole universe spin in 360 degrees. All the Gregorian calendar is about is earth motion around the sun!!! So how big is our Gregorian calendar compare to the Mayan??? The Mayans are on a totally different level here my friend. The Mayans where looking at something that was a lot bigger then earth motion around the sun.


The Mayan calendar covers three aspects of creation.

1. HAAB: Earths motion around the sun.
2. Tzolkin: The personal and astrological.
3. Tun: The 9 levels of creation from start to finish. And the 360 degree spin of every single planet and galaxy in our universe.



The Mayan calendar is about evolution and the evolution of consciousness. The Mayan calendar is about creation from start to finish. The Gregorian calendar becomes insignificant if you compare it to the Mayan calendar.

Tun: 9 levels of creation:

1. The Cellular time period.
2. The Mammalian time period.
3. The Familial time period.
4. The Tribal time period.
5. The Regional time period.
6. The National time period.
7. The Planetary time period.
8. The Galactic time period.
9. The Universal time period.

Mayan pyramids also have 9 levels. The top. The 10th represents completion not the end.

The only aspect the Gregorian calendar covers is the HAAB. We have to dig up a lot more dirt and Mayan artifacts. Talk to a whole lot of shrinks, doctors or priests to be able to cover the other two aspects. Because the Tzalkin and the Tun is not covered by our Gregorian calendar “period”. As you also mentioned in your reply to me earlier.

Hi Pinke! what is going on. Did you miss your time frame. You should have posted by now.

You were doing better than you think. You challenged every bit if information I presented with accuracy, understanding and with sources. I bet the judges agree.

There is a tactical reason why I have not used any sources to verify my arguments. If that is a good tactic or not is decided by the judges.

I have challenged your presentations indirectly not directly. That to is based on tactics. If that is good or not is decided by the judges.

I strongly hope you will come back and fight. Your odds are better than mine. Because I know that the judges like to see a good fight backed up with sources. All you have to do is hold out to the end.

I am going to use my time to keep on going. Because I like this topic and I think I have some good points that I think should be challenged. And I think you are the right one to challenge them, because you have been doing a very good job of that up until now.


Why is the HAABs solar cycle more accurate than the Gregorian solar cycle?

The HAABs accuracy when it comes to the solar year is measured by the Mayans to be: 365.2420358 days. That is the accurate time cycle. My source have rounded up the correct measurement to make it seem less accurate.

Here is my calculation of the Mayans solar year:

1 101 600 days divided by 365 = 3018.082192

3018. 082192 – 2 = 3016. 082192

1 101 600 divided by 3016.082192 = 365.2420358 days solar cycle.

The Gregorian accuracy when it comes the solar year is measured to be: 365.2425 days. I have not calculated to check if this is correct. That becomes your job. But this is the correct measurement my source are using. I am going to assume that they are actually spot on with this measurement. It is presented by the authority which we use to gather information.

As you can see the Gregorian measurement is a lot less accurate then what the Mayans have calculated. The time frame which the Long count was measured is agreed upon by Gregorian authority. The only thing the Gregorian authority don’t agree on is what day the 13.0.0.0.0 is on. The reason for that is the Gregorian measurement of solar cycles. It doesn’t match the Mayans.

The catholic church is the authority and they decide what time, day and year it is, even if they are less accurate. Don't you agree!


Question 1. How did the Mayans come up with such a accurate solar cycle and why is it more accurate then the Gregorian solar cycle?

Question 2. If the Catholic church had measured the solar cycle at the same time as the Mayans did. Would the catholic church be able to measure a more accurate solar cycle then the Mayans 365.240358 days solar cycle. If so! What would be their actual measurement?

Question 3. Would the Gregorian solar time cycle have remained the same today if it was measured at the same time as the Mayans did their calculations?

Question 4. Do you agree that the Gregorian calendar did not exist when the Mayan calendar was created. Is it then possible that the catholic church could have learned from the Mayans on how to calculate more accurate, and used that knowledge to come up with their Gregorian calendar in 1582. Hundreds of years after the Mayans?

Question 5. The Tun calendar has a 360 day cycle. It represents the spin that every planet and galaxy throughout the whole universe have. Why does the catholic church and other authority call this the wage solar cycle, when the Mayans say that the 360 cycle it is not earths measured cycle around the sun?

Reply Three - Ha-Do-Ken

Sorry for slowness all – didn’t even see that spy66 had cleared the 24 extension on my post list. (It arranged itself to look like it always does with this thread on the bottom)

In my opponents post it is stated that both calendars are created to limit people’s choices of freewill.
In a poetic sense my opponent might be right by using air fairy logic. The Gregorian calendar asserts no more control over a person than their own personal responsibilities they have throughout their lives. These responsibilities are mostly separate from the Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian calendar is beyond being a religious marker calendar forcing its people into actions on pain of annihilation or death.

As a Socratic question, I would ask my opponent exactly what Gregorian law we are having to follow?

In my daily work I often work over Christmas and Easter holidays. So there’s certainly no Gregorian law lording over me there. I don’t have to go to Church. There is nothing preventing me from taking a week off in July if I feel like it. The Calendar itself has very little impact on what I do other than counting time.

The only laws I can think of which relate to our calendar in most countries are agreements between government and shopping districts to remain open on certain days. IE All shops must be open on Saturday in the city. If anything this is to maintain the central business distract for tourists and people in my town. How would we prosper if shops opened and closed when they felt like it?

I’m beginning to become confused as to what my opponent’s point actually is.

My opponent states that the Mayan calendar is so accurate and so true that it baffles everyone. Since when has accuracy’s purpose been to baffle everyone? I do believe certain aspects of Mayan culture were perfectly happy to have a calendar that does baffle everyone. It gave them a nice little niche of power provided by their calendars own inconsistencies. Again they had no ability to predict seasons accurately beyond their Jaguar priests who used their simple understanding of mathematics to control their people.

The issue with my opponents argument is perhaps slightly baffling – perhaps only to me. The ‘Tun calendar’ my opponent refers to doesn’t actually exist. A Tun is part of the ancient Maya Long Count Calendar system which corresponds to 18 winal cycles of 360 days. I am assuming that by Tun my opponent is referring to this part of the Long Count calendar.

My opponent here takes a leap into numerology explaining that 360 days happens to be in line with 360 degrees. There’s just no information to back this up. The nine levels of creation are simply silly concepts imposed by those who are full of wishful thinking. The Mayans themselves had no advanced knowledge beyond their time of the future. The 2012 prophecies are in fact rather mundane in comparison.

Looking at my opponents accuracy calculations it appears my previous points have been completely missed. The Haab was not as accurate as even the Roman Julian calendar of 52BC never mind the Gregorian! The Mayan calendar does not use any system of leap days which leads to an error rate of 1 day every 4 years when compared to the solar year.

Further more the Tzolkin and Long Count are not solar calendars. I will return to my previously introduced fact.

From: www.2012hoax.org...

No solar calendar ever devised can do away with some form of leap days (or "intercalary days"), for these simple reasons:
1. There is not an integer number of days in a year (365.2524 days per year)8
2. There is not an integer number lunar cycles in a year (12.3683 lunar cycles per year)9
3. There is not an integer number of days in a lunar cycle (29.53059 days per lunar cycle).10
It would be nice if things were different, and there were exactly an even number of days per lunar phase, and an even number of lunar phases per year, but that's just not how it is.

The Mayans were comfortable with their seasons changing which months they occur. It’s easy to see that our seasons happen with regularity due to our constant correcting of our calendar. The Earth is not a static object and our Calendar requires these adjustments to match its movements. The Mayans did not use intercalary days! How then their calendar be more accurate? If their calendar is more accurate how then does it constantly fail to predict the seasons with any form of accuracy? Make that final question Socratic!

Whilst the Gregorian Calendar remains accurate with intercalary days the Mayan Calendar was still not accurate after the use of an intercalary MONTH called the Uyaeb. My opponents calculations in fact demonstrate my opponents misunderstanding of what makes a calendar accurate. The mathematics behind it must include intercalary days and such like … Just because the Mayan calendar may have been accurate very briefly during a single point in time doesn’t make it accurate at all. That’s like saying if I make the same prediction over and over again and get it right once then I’m clearly a holy person.

My opponent seems to by shying away from the true purpose of the Mayan calendars and also seems to be under the mistaken impression they are somehow ‘in sync’.

The Long Count calendar is no different in Mayan culture than our own system of numbers years in purpose. It is the count since all things began to merely calculate how long ago something happened. I put it to my opponent that it cannot be in sync with the rest of the Mayan calendar.

From: www.2012hoax.org...

With one exception, the calendars did not 'synchronize' with each other on an annual basis. Because the named Tzolkin week is 20 days long, and the smallest Long Count digit is 20 days, the smallest Long Count digit also represents the Tzolkin named day. For example, the last digit of today’s Long Count is 0, today is Ahau; if it is 6, it is Cimi. However the Long Count does not synchronize to the Tzolkin or Haab in any other way.

The Mayan calendar was also based on units of 20 mainly believed to be because that is the number of fingers and toes a person has. So the writing of the dates became endlessly convoluted. 20 days made a uinal, 18 uinals, or 360 days, made a tun, 20 tuns made a katun, or 144, 000 days, made up a baktun. After 13 baktuns the count moved to a higher order.

An example … 7.1.3.10.15 represents 7 baktuns, 1 katuns, 3 tuns, 10 uinals and 15 days since the day of alleged creation.

Funnily enough this could be better written using our mathematics and would look like this: December 8th, 64 A.D. Is there any extra information in the Mayan Calendar? No. It’s just someone using the best calculator they had at the time which was their fingers and toes.

Question 1. How did the Mayans come up with such a accurate solar cycle and why is it more accurate then the Gregorian solar cycle?

Pinke’s Socratic reply question: If the Mayans solar cycle is so accurate why does it fail to calculate the seasons on a regular basis, fail to add atomic seconds at the end of the years, and have an intercalary month in its cycle?

Question 2. If the Catholic church had measured the solar cycle at the same time as the Mayans did. Would the catholic church be able to measure a more accurate solar cycle then the Mayans 365.240358 days solar cycle. If so! What would be their actual measurement?

I don’t understand this question. Is the question, are the Catholic Church better at maths? Who created the Calendar and when is meaningless in this debate. The Mayans developed or took their Calendar from other civilizations and either didn’t do a good job of updating it to keep it accurate or didn’t care. That is all that matters. There is no evidence the Mayan people made any effort to calculate their calendar to be 100% correct.

Question 3. Would the Gregorian solar time cycle have remained the same today if it was measured at the same time as the Mayans did their calculations?

Yes, most likely. Intercalary days and atomic seconds etc added constantly to the Gregorian cycle keep it the most accurate calendar that has been in wide spread use to date.

Question 4. Do you agree that the Gregorian calendar did not exist when the Mayan calendar was created. Is it then possible that the catholic church could have learned from the Mayans on how to calculate more accurate, and used that knowledge to come up with their Gregorian calendar in 1582. Hundreds of years after the Mayans?

The only thing they could have learnt from the Mayans in this regard is how to calculate the date based on your fingers and toes. The Gregorian calendar was based on the Julian calendar. The reforms of the calendar were based off lunar cycles, calculating Easter, and resyncing the calendar to be more accurate. How could the Gregorian calendar have taken anything from a race that constantly let its calendar drift out of time year after year? What would be the point? The Mayans did not make an effort to correct their calendar so why would inspiration to do so come from them?

The only thing the two calendars have in common is that they both have something to do with time.

Socratic Question: What does consciousness have to do with the Long Count?

Superior.


The Mayans calendar ends on the triple rebirth of the sun. The Mayans know that on December 21. 2012 (Gregorian time) it will be winter solstice over the Maya. This is when the Maya will see that the sun is in the middle of the Dark rift of the Milky Way.

Scholars have known for decades that the 13-baktun cycle of the Mayan Long Count system of timekeeping was set to end precisely on a winter solstice.

Maya observed that in the year 7.13.0.0.0, winter solstice occurred on 0 Yaxkin for the second time since the recreation of the world in year 13.0.0.0.0.

That = 1 101 600 days.

This means that from one winter solstice to the next is 1 101 600 days.

How accurate is this?

Each year has 365 days. To see if they are on target we can calculate to check.

1 101 600 divided by 365 minus 2 since it is the second time they observed the winter solstice.

This = 3016.082192

1 101 600 days divided by 3016.082192 = a average year in 1 101 600 days = 365.2420358 days.

A 365.2420358 days year is actually more accurate then the Gregorian year of 365.2425 days.

The Mayans even know exactly how many days a year will have in 2012. This is the whole clue to the Mayan understanding. They know the exact amount of days each year has since the beginning of time.


How many days will pass from 2011 until the Mayan calendar ends on winter solstice 2012?

The Mayans have to wait 365.1423899 days to observe the winter solstice over the Maya land in 2012.

Apart from knowing the year. They also had other calendars that depicted what type of day each one would be like to them.



Closing statement.


This didn’t quite go as I had planned. I have missed one opportunity to post pictures and sources but unforeseen events is a part of the game.
I want to thank Pinky for being a worthy opponent. Pinky put up a fight such that I really had to dig into this topic. I didn’t know much about the Mayan civilization or their calendar before, but I sure know more about it now. This is what this debate is all about for me “learning” by challenging the other aspects and understanding of a specific topic.

What intentions the Mayans had with their different calendars is by my understanding and from reading many different sources very wage and unclear. There are a lot of different people and different societies going around promoting their own and private interpretations of the Mayan civilization, calendar and believes. There is not one source that can actually nail the true meaning of the Mayan calendar end to the ground. That is my honest opinion. I don’t know if we have Fray Diego de Landa to thank for that.


Thank you very much Pinky for putting up with me in this debate. Thanks.



spy66

Closing Statement -

Pinke has won, and will advance to Round 2.

Pinke wins this easily, in this judge's opinion.

I was impressed with spy66's opening arguments and was rather intrigued by the direction he had decided to go in. However, I found that Pinke provided some very substantial refutations.

Particularly Pinke's First Argument is where I was becoming convinced of his position.

I was looking forward to a back and forth but spy66 ended up in his third argument almost conceding the debate. To spy66 in the future, I would recommend saving your presentation for expressions that support and further prove your position or disprove your opponents' position.

The resulting arguments only support this decision.

Pinke is the clear winner here.