whats wrong with the moon part 2

reply to post by NWOnoworldorder



I am thinking...hope (since you responded to nataylor's post) where the video frames were "rotated"...that you didn't misunderstand what THAT implied??

First, the Moon rotates about its AXIS (just as Earth does, and every other celestial body in the Solar System. ALL to some extent have angular motions of some sort...)

The demonstration, of stills from the YouTube video, was to show that when the AXIS of the Moon was represented in sequential images in the same orientation, you could see that the actual shadow, the day/night showing on the hemisphere of the Moon stayed the same. (Actually, of course, SINCE the Moon is moving, the line between light/dark moved EVER so slightly during those few hours....but so slightly as to be imperceptible, from this distance. If you were on the Moon, and had a sundial set out, you'd see a little tiny bit of change, but all that is due to the slower rate of rotation, compared to Earth, in the same time period).

What nataylor showed very well was that, since the Earth is a spinning globe, the angle that you view the Moon changes. (It varies by your latitude too....WHERE you are above of below the Equator).

Look at a fixed light pole...tilt your head all the way to the left...then all the way to the right...see??? Now, do that while on a merry-go-round!

reply to post by weedwhacker


yea ive got it now lol...case solved

but yea the way you just put it makes more sense, i guess i have to brush up on my astronomy, but thanks again, much appreciated

Originally posted by NWOnoworldorder
reply to post by nataylor

 

but i thought the moon didnt rotate? thats why we always see the one side?? im confused

The same side of the moon is always pointed at earth. The apparent angle of the face of the moon with respect to the horizon changes as it moves through the sky. Let's say you're in the northern hemisphere, and let's put a clock face on the moon, with 12:00 at the moon's north pole, 6:00 at the south pole, 3:00 to the east and 9:00 to the west. The moon rises generally in the east, with the 9:00 part of the moon closest to the horizon. As the moon moves through the sky, it appears to rotate clockwise, such that at its highest point in the sky, the 6:00 position is pointed down, toward the horizon. By the time the moon sets in the west, the 3:00 position is now closest to the horizon.

You can replicate this in a little experiment with a soccer ball or basketball. Hold it in both hands out to your left side. Now bring it in an arc over your head and out to the right side. See how on the left one side is pointing down, but on the right, the opposite side is pointing down?

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Basically, if the Earth's Moon didn't only show one face to the Earth, it would be more of a scientific anomaly than the fact that it does.

I keep seeing this same pseudo-arguement throughout the net.

Fact is if the moon did rotate upon its axis, AT ANY TILT AND AT ANY SPEED, an observer from earth would eventually see ALL SIDES of the moon, not just the near side as we see now. You would see the far side and everything that is potentially hidden there.

Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact scientists are observing the statically orbiting moon FROM OUR ROTATING EARTH and thus think that somehow the moon itself must be rotating. That could cause a perception problem for some people, but you would think people with an "advanced degree in astrophysics" would have already figured that out.......

Since people keep asking me for sources I will provide one and they are NOT EASY to find since everything "official" keeps pounding the same lies. Is it really a coincidence that some people will go to extra-ordinary lengths to discredit people with different opinions even though they may be correct? I think not!!!

The rotation of the moon

Let's examine the current status quo for Moon rotation

Currently the status quo within the field of Astronomy is that the Moon spins about its axis in a period equal to a rotational period around Earth. So lets looks at the frame of reference used in current theories within the field of Astronomy that has backed this conclusion. When scientists concluded the axis is the Moon rotated, this is true, but it was the frame of reference used, which is the source of confusion. The frame used was one that included the rotational path of the Moon with the Earth as the pivot point of rotation. Within in this frame of reference, the Moon follows its rotational path as gravity turns the direction of motion of the Moon inward maintaining orbital distance and any reference on the surface of the Moon changes direction by 360 degrees with the frame in relation to the Earth. The problem the Moon rotation that those who formulated this theory, is that they confused completing a curved path of rotation where points of an object do change in relation to others in an expanded reference frame. The frame of reference used for rotational spin contains only the object itself. The definition of spin about an axis is the object must complete 1 rotation about its axis within the frame no matter what motion the frame itself takes on.

If you have a stick, attach a line to one of its ends about a pivot point and connect the other end through the center of the ball and tie off. Revolve the ball about you, but the ball does spin about its axis? How could it, it is attached to a string. You do see the same face of the ball as it revolves about the holder of the stick. You can validate that a point on the ball when you include yourself and the ball's curved path, does change its position within the greater frame, but the ball itself does not spin about its axis. Spin is a relationship between a frame of reference that contains only the object in question and its rotation about a set point within that frame. It is not the motion of the total frame of reference as an object revolves in a circular path around a pivot point the Earth in this case giving the illusion of spin about the axis, when it is a change position due to rotation. Are you confusing motion of an object following a curved path as oppose to spin about its axis? I hope you answered no. So why do you use the same of conditions and principles to validate the Moon's rotation about the Earth and to validate the moon's spin about its axis are in perfect synchronization?

From the same page:

Explanation of Frames of Reference

Astronomers observing the Moon noticed that it seems to be rotating on its axis in precise synchronization with its orbital speed, but their conclusion is wrong. A close examination would reveal the Moon does not rotate at all and is void of spin. Here is an experiment that can be conducted in your elementary astronomy labs. First the definition of rotation about its axis: when an object rotates 360 degrees about its central point within a set reference field. A set up a simple clear rigid plastic square sheet drill a hole in its center and suspend an attached sphere at its central axis with a string and the other end to the hole. Draw a straight reference between both points in which the rotational axis pierces the surface of the sphere and follows its curved surface. As a reference, mark a point on the perimeter of the square establishing as a lineup for the minimum distance between the line drawn between the axis of the suspended sphere and the marked point. Rotational spin within the grid is defined as the axis line moving away from the reference point and returning to the reference point in the same direction. Absence of rotation, the points of the axis line and grid reference remain aligned. Now attach a rigid rod to the frame of reference, if we move the grid away a point of origin at a set speed in a straight line does the parameters for rotation within the grid change as we view it while holding the grid away perpendicular to our motion? No. The next condition is for you move grid forward along a curved path and observing a reference of no rotation the points maintain alignment within the grid. When spin is applied and the sphere rotates 360 degrees in the same direction, if you move the grid forward along a curved path, you observe the sphere rotates. Again as you notice the sphere with no rotation, you constantly see the reference point and the axis line locked. If it spins you see all sides of the sphere. Now if you hold the grid and turn in an arc about a rigid point if the is no spin you constantly see the reference point and axis line. Apply a spin of 1 rotation you see all sides. If during that time you also pivoted 360 degrees about the same point you still observed all sides of the sphere during the turn. Looking at the total picture we find that a sphere with no rotation when pivoting about a point presents the same view of the reference point and axis line. In the second part when the speed of the rotation of the sphere to completes 1 rotation within the grid was matched to pivoting about 360 degrees in synchronization you still see all sides. Now realize the Moon is the sphere within the grid and the pivot point is Earth does this change the observations? No. Can astronomers present a simple experiment with models that backs the how Moon rotates? If so, I have many examples where the same mistake was made over and over again. The have 1 moon match its rotational period is rare, but many in the same location with varied periods would go against the greatest odds, but check some of the moons of Jupiter & Saturn and the impossible happens. We should finally move on.

After your done reading that then read MOON DOES NOT ROTATE AROUND IT AXIS . You see I didn't know all the details as TO WHY my theory was correct. I had a hunch if you will but some guys are great in explaining THE OBVIOUS. All one has to do is go out and see THE SAME SIDE OF THE MOON day-in and day-out with slight variations; I.E you NEVER see the far side!!!

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
I think your scientific ignorance is an act, and you are (for some unknown reason) trying to be intentionally obtuse...but I'll bite.

Sorry pal but I am no actor. If I was good in the "dramatic arts" I would definitely go to hollywood and make a name for myself, let alone the money involved. That is what is wrong with this world...either your on the *inside* or your on the *outside*.

If you think nasa never lies about anything despite tons and tons of evidence to the contrary then you are both ignorant and naive. All it takes is a little effort on YOUR PART to see the light but as the saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." is ohhh so true!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


DID you not watch the animation it shows what you claim and how that is BS watch it again and learn something lets see if it will actually sink in!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact scientists are observing the statically orbiting moon FROM OUR ROTATING EARTH and thus think that somehow the moon itself must be rotating.

Question: How do you know the Earth is rotating?

Maybe a video will help explain it better.



Anyway this is off topic and I think this thread should be in the HOAX section anyway, it has been clearly demonstrated that the moon has not tilted throughout the thread.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


This is either the second, third fourth or two hundredth (lost count) time I've seen that junk "grant chronicles" copy/pasted, about the Moon.

What total garbage....and why so many on ATS believe that crap?? (I think it's more than one...or maybe only a few, doing it over and over again?? Not sure anymore...)

BUT, if all the best efforts, to date, here in this thread haven't turned on the light bulb over your head....try this:

WHY does the Moon have "phases"?

WHAT is happening when they occur?

HOW can you explain them, without realizing that the Moon rotates on its own axis?

And....thought experiment....say that YOU are standing ON the Moon. Pick a crater, any crater (preferably somewhere near the Moon's equator, or a few tens of degrees north or south)

IF the Moon didn't rotate, what would the Sun do, as you watched it? Would it appear to stand still, in the "sky"? Always in one place, relative to the horizon? Think on that, real, real hard......

Also, think on this.....same thing, you're on the Moon, and on the hemisphere that faces the Earth. Guess what? Since WE see the same hemisphere, all the time...then YOU would see the Earth, all the time, in the SAME POSITION in the "sky". The stars would change (hint), and YES the Sun "moves" too (big hint).

But IF the Moon did not rotate AT ALL, the the Sun would be fixed, and the Earth would "move" in the Lunar "sky" view......

(I expect I may have just confused you even more? Well, it;s a risk one is worth taking....)

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact scientists are observing the statically orbiting moon FROM OUR ROTATING EARTH and thus think that somehow the moon itself must be rotating.

Question: How do you know the Earth is rotating?

Very simple, if the earth did not rotate as it orbited the sun, then one of earth's hemisphere would always be exposed to sunlight while the other side would always be dark. Think about it, IF you must. Hence we have 24 hour days, the number of hours it takes for earth to complete one rotation around its vertical axis.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


NO!!!!! Khaaaaannnnnnn!!!! Argh.

....if the earth did not rotate as it orbited the sun, then one of earth's hemisphere would always be exposed to sunlight while the other side would always be ...

No. No. No.

No. No.

No.

Put a chair in the middle of your room. Put a friend in the chair. Better yet, a lamp, with a bare light bulb. THAT will be the "sun". Draw a big circle around it, with chair and lamp still in center. The circle will be your "orbital path", with the lamp as the "sun" in the center.

Stand in front of the chair, facing it. On the edge of the circle. ON your "orbit", and at your "orbital" distance.

Follow the circle, but do NOT change the direction you are facing!!! Because, IF you change the direction you are facing, THEN you would be "rotating" your body, right???

After going 180 degrees around the circle, WHERE is the lamp ("sun")?? Is your back now lit up??

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Put a chair in the middle of your room. Put a friend in the chair. Better yet, a lamp, with a bare light bulb. THAT will be the "sun". Draw a big circle around it, with chair and lamp still in center. The circle will be your "orbital path", with the lamp as the "sun" in the center.

Stand in front of the chair, facing it. On the edge of the circle. ON your "orbit", and at your "orbital" distance.

Follow the circle, but do NOT change the direction you are facing!!! Because, IF you change the direction you are facing, THEN you would be "rotating" your body, right???

After going 180 degrees around the circle, WHERE is the lamp ("sun")?? Is your back now lit up??

edit on 16 November 2010 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)

I thought the article provided already explained everything? Did you even read it?

The answer to your question is you don't have to rotate your body to face the light because you are always facing it from the beginning. Its just centrifugal force pulling you along the ark! Do I need to draw a diagram for you to understand the concept?

Take a grapefruit, which will be the earth, and take an orange which will be the moon.

Make a medium sized x on the orange and then make it statically orbit the grapefruit while the x initially faces the grapefruit. You WILL notice the x on the orange the entire time, even if you rotate the grapefruit.

SO DAMM SIMPLE! I give up if you can't figure this out....seriously!

There are more important threads to participate in and I "mistakengly" posted in space-exploration on a so-called "alternative website". Come to think of it even posting in the ufo forumn will get you abused by the same people posting here................

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Your ideas on whether or not the Moon rotates as it revolves around the earth seems to be a question is semantics -- i.e, your definition of "revolve" compared to the accepted definition. Suffice it to say that as the Moon makes one revolution around the Earth, it keeps one side always facing the Earth. We say that requires one rotation, you say it doesn't. Whatever.

But tidal locking is in fact the natural state that two co-orbiting bodies will eventually "fall into". That's why just about ALL of the solar systems major moons are tidally locked to their parent.

The mechanism behind tidal locking is relatively easy to understand. Here is one source that explains it clearly:
www.physicsdaily.com...

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
If you think nasa never lies about anything despite tons and tons of evidence to the contrary then you are both ignorant and naive. All it takes is a little effort on YOUR PART to see the light but as the saying goes "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." is ohhh so true!

When did I ever mention NASA?

Tidal locking is orbital physics, and has been understood LONG before NASA existed. I'm not sure if anyone knows who actually first described the mechanisms behind tidal locking (it was probably something that many people slowly came to understand over the years), but it's sufficient to say that NASA doesn't dictate orbital physics.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by nataylor

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact scientists are observing the statically orbiting moon FROM OUR ROTATING EARTH and thus think that somehow the moon itself must be rotating.

Question: How do you know the Earth is rotating?

Very simple, if the earth did not rotate as it orbited the sun, then one of earth's hemisphere would always be exposed to sunlight while the other side would always be dark. Think about it, IF you must. Hence we have 24 hour days, the number of hours it takes for earth to complete one rotation around its vertical axis.

The moon has a 655 hour, 43 minute day. So it's rotating with respect to the sun, right?

Originally posted by nataylor
The moon has a 655 hour, 43 minute day. So it's rotating with respect to the sun, right?

Excellent point. The fact that there would be a daytime and a nighttime on any given point on the Moon (except for the "exact" poles) seems to prove the point that it is rotating relative to the Sun.

EDIT TO ADD:
I know that you mean the "whole day" when you say lunar "day", but just to clarify:
the day lit portion of one lunar day at the equator is about 328 Earth hours, and so is the "dark" portion of one lunar day.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
EDIT TO ADD:
I know that you mean the "whole day" when you say lunar "day", but just to clarify:
the day lit portion of one lunar day at the equator is about 328 Earth hours, and so is the "dark" portion of one lunar day.

edit on 11/16/2010 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Right-o. The lunar "day" is ~656 hours the same way the "day" on earth is 24 hours.

Originally posted by Urantia1111
some folks have even noted the sun and moon have been rising/setting in not-as-predicted locations on the horizon? not sure if thats true but it would support the theory.

very interesting as I have been saying this to people who do not believe me. I have driven the same time every day for the last 13 years facing west as the sun is setting. This last year or so at various times for maybe 3-4 days the sun is WAY up above the horizon when it should be just setting on it or going below. One day, my jaw dropped open as the sun was in a 3:00pm position when it was almost 5:30pm. I had to double look at my clock but I knew I couldn't have left work early. The next day it was sitting near the horizon.

My theory is that the Earth had shifted "down" I guess for the sun to appear higher. I'm sure the Earth floats around in it's orbit but for 13 years it has remained for the most part, in the same place but those days when it is obviously in a different place makes you think.

reply to post by dreampsi

...and is this still true when you take into account the seasonal lengthening or shortening of the daylight hours (due to the 23 degree tilt of the Earth)?

I have to say that you and I "have" the same Sun, and it seems to me that it rises and sets as it should (as predicted by sunrise/sunset tables). Obviously it sets much earlier in December than it does in June (by a few hours), but that's just because of the Earth's normal axial tilt.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


..as I said, it was in a different place for ONE day and back to normal the next. I can understand a gradual change with seasons but sometimes it was for a day or two then back to normal as well. This was about 3 months ago that I noticed the significant change for one day. When you see the same thing for 13 years, day in and out, you notice the oddities.

Originally posted by nataylor
The moon has a 655 hour, 43 minute day. So it's rotating with respect to the sun, right?

The moon is statically orbiting(imo) the earth, while the earth is dynmically orbiting the sun.

The moon does not orbit the sun directly, only indirectly as a result of the earth orbiting the sun.

As for how long a moon day is I have no idea and I am not willing to take nasa's word for it either. I will imagine moon days and moon nights are based on the overall orbit of the moon, earth and other planets in relation to the sun.

Somewhat of a tricky question since it involves many parameters!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by nataylor
The moon has a 655 hour, 43 minute day. So it's rotating with respect to the sun, right?

The moon is statically orbiting(imo) the earth, while the earth is dynmically orbiting the sun.

The moon does not orbit the sun directly, only indirectly as a result of the earth orbiting the sun.

You'll have to define the term "static orbit" and "dynamic orbit." What makes the two different?

But at any rate, the moon is rotating with respect to the sun, right? If it goes through day and night cycles, it must be rotating, correct?