Is freedome an illusion?

My conclusion is no. The basic question is: are there coincidences? This leads us to the next question: is existence ruled by order or by the opposite (chaos) of it. Einstein said ''god does not play dice with the universe''. If existence is based on rules, than there is order so there is no coincidence. If there is no coincidence, than every happening can be predicted if we know all the rules and factors of existence. And if all this is true than choice is only an illusion and a part of a series of action-reaction based events determined by the rules of existence. Now. I'm well aware that there are a lot of ifs in my train of thought but history points into this direction, because whenever something happend we could not explain and we classified it as a coincidence (or act of God, or will of Nature, or mark of chaos, etc.), after a while (when our knowledge reched a certain level) it became a result of obvious reasons. To put it simple there's always a reason, we just don't know it. Now the consequence of all this is that if we'd know all the rules and factors, we could predict the whole life of a person. And this means that this persons decisons and actions are not the choices of free will, but a course predestined by all those above. Let me make an example: if we'd ask a holocaust victim who suffered even more than the average, ''was Hitler good?'', he would answear with no. Life, ofcourse, is a lot more complex. But this only means there are more rules and factors in the equation.

What do you think?

reply to post by Echtelior


Sh.... Sorry everyone. I forgot to change the beginning if my post after I changed the titel. So my conclusion is YES.

reply to post by Echtelior


It seems this is more of a rhetorical question than anything, but IMO, no there is no such thing as coincedences. Is order or chaos the true nature of our universe? That is something I do often question, but ultimately I feel most comfortable somewhere in the middle. The middle always seems to be the "true" path, however, I'm not so sure that the middle is always 50% between the perceived polar opposites. Figure that out.

Not only is the tiTLE rhetorical, it's pointless. Of course freedom is an illusion. At least our concept of freedom, anyway. Freedom is a tool, a platform upon which an endless number of people stand to ask for our votes into a position through which that individual will stand to gain financial success.

Freedom is a concept, like time, that resonates so true that people will fight and die for it. The problem is that the "freedom" for which some have died is reserved for those who have the money to afford it.

The concept of freedom is what we're shown. . .the heart of freedom is served cold, on a plank of a pirate ship. Freedom is not known until the moment we die.

This, of course, is my opinion. From what I've been told, many men and women around the world have died for my right to voice that opinion. I've also been told that if it weren't for freedom, I'd be writing this in German right now. That's funny because no matter what language it was written in, the heart of freedom allows that opinion to remain unaltered.

very nicley put Divine, i figure on the same lines. Freedom is what we are told it is, usually the biggest factor in conflicts and properganda centers around it. I heard a saying once, I do not know where but " the best prison is the one without bars".
If you think you are free and feel you are free they dont need to constantly monitor you. I for one live a reasonably happy life in Europe, but do I feel free, hell no I dont.

peace

Free Will Resurrected

According to many leading physicists like David Bohm, and neuroscientists like Pibram, no, there is no freedom whatsoever, for the classical mind.

The classical mind, according to another Quantum Physicist by the name of Amit Goswami who authored "The Self Aware Universe", represents nothing, but an elaborate recording device, however complex. .It can really ONLY operate from all manner of stimuli and response to stimuli and can easily lie to itself to perpetuate the notion that "it" is who we are, driven by the desire to perpetuate nothing but more of "itself" (what I call "it") which can ONLY represent, a reflection of past events and past, learned behaviors.

That is not, however, the last word.

Goswami goes on to basically prove, in no uncertain terms, that the classical mind is only HALF the equation.

The human being is also in possession of a quantum holographic mind.
It is only from the perspective of THIS mind, that free will is by no means an illusion, provided we also accept the framework of a Monistic Idealism (consciousness is primary) because therein resides the final collapse of the probability wave of existence, from our end anyway.., and our mind then, instead of being not much more than mush inside our heads, is mush inside our heads - transmitting and receiving, on a quantum holographic basis, reality itself, and therefore perhaps even concievably, within a multidimensional, fractal, eternal evolutionary recurrence of SOME type. Because, when time comes to an end, and the "itself" exhausts itself (the insessant ramblings of the mind) the mind then can enter the realm of the imagination (novelty) as a quantum holographic possibility, ie: have "a thought", and then CHOOSE whatever we wish, and in CHOOSING and in choosing alone, is there an emergent, transcendant, quantum holographic self, or the REAL you, and the wave collapses in that final decision or judgement, or evaluation. The one who chooses, and your quantum hlographic mind, and everything then, is like an ever expanding dot in an infinite sphere of knowledge, and love.
as in "it pleased the first father of creation to share his kingdom with all his children". The gift of free will then still comes from God, and you also are God, in the sense that it always "takes two to tango" or two, to close the circle in Goswami's framework ("I was with you since before the very foundations of the earth). In it alone are all the quantum paradoxes resolved, and what's interesting, is it's regenerative, this conception of the world and our place within it, of something novel, something creative, something worthwhile.

And so the only question then for the REAL us, the one's who get to choose, not the memory of things past, but the choosing being, the free person, relative only to what is before us, out of the realm of all possibility, the holy of holies, is

what are we choosing?
what are we creating?

that's the fount of all inspiration, all novelty, all new history, and the question is put to US, not from any "them"... and not by the TV and the MSM, but by God.

The alternative, or a purely materialist monist, classical worldview just doesn't work, any more, and it's soon passing away, to be replaced by the type of monistic idealism advanced by this Goswami and many others, like Ervin Laszlo, Bernard Haisch and many others.

We're IT, but "IT" is not us.

There is no one to blame. We all did it, all participated in it whether purposely or otherwise, and now it's all in the past.

What now?

Freedom: the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint. You're talking about coincidences? coincidence has nothing to with freedom, freedom is our rights, to be owned by ourselves and no one. We have freedom. I am over 14; i have the legal right and the freedom to move away from my parents and live on my own. Thats called freedom, my friend. I suggest you gather your notes, and work on a title that has something to do with your thread (and that is spelled correctly)

Freedom is the ability for something to act unimpeded in it's surrounding environment to suit it's needs.

Rain is free to fall from the sky. Wind is free to blow. Grass is free to grow. Once these things have a force applied to prevent them, they are not free.

In regards to humans - the concept of freedom does not change. But we apply measures that restrict it.

Once we were free to alter our environment to provide us freedom. Eventually however, others who felt the same impeded our ability to do so. In order to combat this, we sought a way to enforce freedom for all, which by it's very nature, denied us true freedom.

Freedom is not an illusion, it is very real. But we are not allowed to embrace it entirely because of laws that were first enacted to safeguard it.

It's a pointless argument in todays society. Freedom is now a commodity, sold to the highest bidder at the cost of the average member of a society - the seller. You can effectively say freedom is stolen from those who cannot protect it in order for it to be sold to the rich.

But inherently, in a perfect world, a world where every person has their own space, freedom is not even an issue to debate. It's implied.

reply to post by Divine Strake


You misunderstod something. Freedome is the ability to chose independent from any external influence. Not political freedome, not economical freedome, not any other freedome. This thread is about the simple, philosophical question of freedome of choice.

reply to post by AuirOverrun


First of all, sorry for the spelling. I was never good at it. Not even in my own language...
Having the right for it and beeing abel to do it is not the same. Even if you have the right but not the means, can you really chose? Are you free? I don't think so. So if you can't chose, you aren't free. And if all our decisions are predetermined by a system of existence, which we are part of, than we don't chose but following a path. And this is not freedom. Read the original post more carefully.

If what Goswami and others state is true, and I've read it and "grokked" of it and it makes perfect sense to me, then free will isn't an illusion, we are, of sorts (our mere 3D physicality). The "real us", the one who chooses, must, if the quantum paradoxes are to be resolved within a Monistic Idealism - be a timeless, spaceless being.. no other conclusion may be drawn! This "mutualGodbeing" of freedwill then, for some reason or another, utilizes this monkey body on this planet, to actualize an experience, through a co-creative act of mutual participation, occuring in time, from a point of view of a position outside of time and space, That's pretty strange, Goswami's conception of the real identity and position of the chooser, who is also, the uberself. And it holds water! That's what crazy about it, it's also scientifically valid and is supported from a whole host of angles and perspectives. We, are, eternal, beings. Time and space, and therefore the creation, is an illusion being generated for our own benfit, as an intentional subtraction, or limitation of, the Absolute, taking on the "role" of creator, and having the grace to do it through us as evolved beings in a mutually co-creative manner which allows for absolute freedom, of the unconditional variety. It groks. Amazing! A rational basis for faith at last. Of course still more faith will be required to test this apparent gnosis, in increasing consentric spheres of love and mutuality, forever. I'm ok with that, I can roll with it, because it's much better for there to be something, to DO!

I guess we've got a lot of work to do then eh? Planets pretty F'd up at the moment, socially, but maybe it's all just a matter of perspective, and acceptance, mutuality, love, etc.

if there's nothing to do and no conditions, then what inspires us, that's the question, since to be free is to be free to create something new, but it would sure be nice to pick up time itself, as nothing but a tool of creativity. What liberation! Hallelujia!!! (i don't know how to spell it)

reply to post by Echtelior


In your queston, at least for me, resides a newfound understanding or awareness, and a newfound sense of RELEIF, and of a deep peace (of the type I had as a child, when things were new) "a peace not of this world" which comes from above and can ONLY come from that place. Therefore it has increased my faith greatly, and for that I am in your debt for posing the question, so thank you very much. This is something I'm going to have to spend more "time" with, so to speak, there's something here, a deep knowing about something long forgotten, but which has been told to us, by the very presence of ourselves in the creation, since the beginning of the world, by creation itself. Perhaps there was once a time when we all simply took this conception, for granted! Can you imagine that kind of world? Jesus did, and these things I learn from him and then pass along.

And just for the record I'm not crazy or suffering from a "Christ complex" that's not it. It's just a style of musing aloud and letting the spirit do the typing. Please don't take me the wrong way.

Originally posted by badw0lf
But inherently, in a perfect world, a world where every person has their own space, freedom is not even an issue to debate. It's implied.

I must applaud your statement here badwolf.

------

Freedom is real. But freedom is also relative. In the world in which we live no one is truly free, and everyone is a slave to someone. If you believe in the Bible, it says that we are either enslaved to sin and its law of death, or you can become slaves of God (by choice) and become children that belong to freedom. For example we are told about God's law:

(James 1:25) . . .But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom . . .

and also that at a certain point in the future:


(Romans 8:21) . . .that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Right now of course the OP may understand the illusion of freedom as offered to society. It does not exist. All people are enslaved to sin and death and are being lead to death.

Now to find that type of freedom, and a world that badwolf talked about. Now that would be something.

reply to post by Echtelior


That's what I get for doubling up on Ambien, then posting. I don't even remember this post.
Thank god my wife hides my car keys,

reply to post by Echtelior


Yeah, I'll agree with you Etchelior, unfortunately most of the people posting have misunderstood something.

Basically the questions of freedom of choice, of coincidences, it all boils down to free will, destiny, fate, etc, of trying to predict the future, of trying to take control of you're life, no? I think for most people they never think about this stuff because the potential answers are way too scary. OK, for the sake of argument, lets suppose that freedom, the freedom of choice, is just an illusion and that there are no such things as coincidences, that life is as you said,a series of reactions and what not. OK, so what's the big deal right? I think for most peop)le that's tantamount to saying you're sh*t out of luck buddy, somebody else is calling the shots in you're life and there ain't a thing you can do about it, which is something that most people don't want hear. People wanna be calling the shots, they wanna be in control, complete control, no if ands or buts about it. As soon as you tell'em there's no free choice, that the universe don't play dice, they feel threatened.

Ah, OK, you see, their you go, a perfect example. The thingy, the whatchamacallit, the the the, you know, it's.... ahh....It's crying.....I gotta...., somethings come up..... I, ah ...gotta go..., you see, I've got no choice, it's begging for my attention, I've no choice, (well I do have a choice, finish up this post or go attend to the.......whatever and not finish this post), sorry, I gotta go, I'll finish up latter(you see, I just made a choice to abruptly end this post and take care of the whatever(what do you care what it is), a choice wherein, if you ask me, I excercised my freedom of choice, or so it would appear.)

Anyways I gotta go, I'll try and finish this line of thought later(that is if I'm free to do so, I may not be. I don't know, so far, I can't predict the future cause there are no clear cut rules about life except nothing happens according to the rules of life). Ciao ciao

Oh wait, I'll leave you with this one last thought for you's to mull over, You ever hear that Janis Joplin song(I think it's Janis Joplin) that goes "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to do" . That line nails it right on the head. OK, now I gotta g