Just who and what ARE we?

reply to post by Fergu


Who then, is our "family"?

Is it just a "selfish gene" that drives us, and gives us meaning and purpose, or is there something greater?

Loved the cat analogy btw! Beautiful!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


In a nutshell? It took me 118,000 words to nutshell it. Then again, most of that was nutshelling the empirical indications and logical proof that completely rearranges the nature of physical reality from what we generally believe it to be to what it actually is. Including the unit level sub-structure that no one had (from all published accounts) uncovered until I stumbled across it. It's that unit level sub-structure that reveals the secret to quickly and easily figuring out the entire nature and motivation (for lack of a better word) of physical existence as a whole, and definitely humanity as a unique accomplishment - a singular hybrid expression - of both foundational forms of physical existence; event and information.

The human being - within the specific sub-environment that we inhabit - is integral to the fulfillment of a very fundamental existential imperative. The original expression of the human being - having emerged within the foundational contextual environment was not part of such a fulfillment, but brought the need for such a fulfillment into existence as a direct result of its own inherent nature.

My signature (below) contains an Amazon.com link to a 325 page book that has just been released. This book goes into exhaustive and extremely specific detail concerning all aspects of this situation, and provides all required logical defense of every aspect of the premise involved. The logic is airtight, and the premise is absolutely complete. If you really want to learn who you are, what you are and why you exist, then hit the link in my signature and put the book in your shopping cart. I don't know any better way to say it.

Yes, this is a book that is for sale, but I have discovered that if you give people something for free, it immediately becomes worthless to them. You get what you pay for, is the way they see it. Besides, this is the result of decades of extremely slow revelation, along with the emerging logical infrastructure to absolutely sustain each and every assertion. The real effort was learning how to write a book and to then engineer an effective information rollout that would not become crippled with debilitating digression. That took 5 years of dedicated labor to achieve.

What I reveal in this book has been repeatedly suggested through metaphor and allegory for thousands of years, and humanity has finally become intellectually sophisticated enough (through advances in science and technology, as well as philosophy and metaphysics) to strip the metaphors and allegories away and deal with the true physical structure as it has always existed before us, around us and within us.

I originally believed that ATS would be the perfect Internet launching pad for this revolution in human perception. Hell, if any place was open to revolution, then (in my view) it was this place. I saw this as the perfect place to have the entire premise "peer-reviewed" since this notion involves pre-math, pre-physics, pre-consciousness, and has no academic community of its own to review it. It is a true revolution in human perception. Where better to launch such a revolution than a dissident community that is seriously dedicated to debunking the status quo and all the damage that status quo has done to the human race? Especially one with a global platform.

What I've discovered will eventually change everything. Well, not everything. Just the human being's understanding of everything. And for us, that will be everything. It'll be like when Copernicus reconstructed the entire universe to start the Earth's orbit around the Sun. The Earth had always been in orbit around the Sun, but what a difference perception makes for those perceiving. Once this notion catches (and it will because it's much too recognizable and sensible to not catch, and the benefits are too obvious) the human mind will never see itself the same again. And yet, nothing will have changed besides the human perception of what always was.

Yeah, this sounds pretty grand, but I promise that what I've discovered backs it all up and then some. I guess the ball is now in your court - referring, of course, to the ATS community at large. Personally, I'd love for this community to get the credit for launching this to the world, but you do what you want with it. It'll be launched eventually anyway.

reply to post by NorEaster


Thanks, will have to take a look at that. What a wonderful contribution, to share that.

My own though (and I don't mean to negate from nor detract from your POV in any way at all) is that, if we really do reside within a non-local (Bell's Theorem) holographic universe (Bohm, and others), whereby the entire universe may be considered some sort of quantum computer with information exchange occuring through the Akashic Field or Akashic Record (Laszlo, and others), then the cosmic evolutionary process itself must also be non-local and holographic ie: not a purely isolated, localized phenomenon. Thus, if the human being represents the most recent addition to the apex of a local evolutionary process here on Earth, then by extension, we may be considered, in the grand scheme of things, "the last who are first" or, put another way, the most physically evolved creature in the universe, regardless of where we are at in terms of our technological, socio-political, or spiritual evolution. If so then there is something about our bicameral brain and nervous system, which is both unique in cosmic evolution, and exceedingly evolved, to the nth degree.

Where this becomes even MORE extraordinary, if such a thing were possible, is where physicist Amit Goswami's hypothesis steps in, called Monistic Idealism, whereby consciousness, and not matter (Materialist Monism) is primary, to resolve the quantum paradoxes - in which case, our choosing self (no Von Neumann catastrophe of infinite regression), which collapses the wave of probability and actualizes reality, must also reside in a non-localized, holographic reality or, outside of 3D time and space, and is therefore one with God, and even capable, in theory, of accessing the place God lives (domain of infinite possibility), and then, from that higher, transcendant position, freely choosing.

On the caveat then, that we do not "eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" or assign strong black and white judgements, and JUDGE reality from the POV of the transcendant, or allowing God to remain God (first/last cause, Alpha and Omega of existence), and therefore remaining in an I-thou relationship WITH God, the tree of life is then available, and thus, at least in theory, if not in practice, yet, entry back into the Garden of Eden (perceptual paradise, walking hand in hand with the creator), including a present moment awareness of our true position as co-creators, which must, according to Monistic Idealism, reside in a transcendant realm ie: in eternity (gift of eternal life) - it once again, accessible, via the gate. And here is where my cosmological Christ steps in to the picture.

Since man was made in the image of God, by cosmic evolutionary design, to represent the highest expression of the infinite Godhead, and contain, in fullness and without measure, the very spirit of God, and since God, knowing in the fullness of time and history, that we would eventually arrive at an understanding of our true position in creation and eat from the tree of life, He himself entered the frame of reference, through the person of Jesus of Nazareth to become in effect the gate, and both the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as well as the tree of life, so as to protect his assets so to speak from the evil of a fallen man, and so there it remains, rendered large, to this very day, for our mutual enjoyment and "grokking", as an embodiment of the twin pillars in the temple of Soloman, or the twin pillars of a severe justice on the one hand, and a tender mercy on the other.

To me, it is a marvelous thing to behold and to know, and by my calculations, by my grokking of this great truth, it no longer resides purely in the realm of blind faith, but instead serves as a gnosis, a knowledge, of just who and what we are, and what we are intended, by design, to become.

I used to think it somehow "bad" or "wrong" in some way to reveal such things on the Internet like this, as in "do not cast your pearls before swine", but me I have faith in people (what else can a person do?), and there are, as you feel with your book, just some ideas whose time has come, which some curious mind can't not come along and unravel at some point. Also, there are many who just don't have the mind for it, or, who would refuse to accept such a gift in any event, who, for reasons I cannot fathom, would reject the God of love.

But his offer stands nevertheless, and this is the way it has to be. Otherwise evil men would take heaven by storm, and therefore I praise God above for the person of Jesus Christ and for his great work, that God can remain God, and man the son of God, in a proper I-Thou relationship.

Meher Baba, stated that God cannot be understood and that therefore we must attain to the I am God status and live God, and to a degree this is true, but he didn't "grok" Jesus Christ, and that mission and purpose, nor the Biblical framework. Had he done so, he would not have said that we must BE God, but that instead, we must be given a model of leadership, which would allow us to fall in love WITH God, and in the process be drawn forth, to be processed, from what is base, or dross, to what is pure, and rare (perhaps less rare all the time..?).

That's just my two cents on the issue.

It's what might be called a rational basis for faith in an all inclusive, quantum holographic, cosmological Christ (don't laugh). And for reading him correctly, this would make of me a type of Peter (the rock of a valid testimonial).

Ans finally, I would be forced to conclude, therefore, that the Roman Catholic Church's mission cannot possibly be to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven to the Earth, as per Jesus' vision and mission, and purpose, because that would be the end of their grip on power, the end of the need for them, except perhaps as a record in history, to preserve and maintain what's I've just outlined, for posterity, and nothing more.

I then in this post offer you the mass, in the form of the word, as food, for your grokking and consumate pleasure, and for those who eat what's being offered, and grok of it most fully, you will experience with me, with us, something called "Koinonia" (look it up, for those who will).

with much love,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


That's an impressive arrangement of notions, and it's obvious that these folks spent a lot of time and intellect on them. What is missing is the base impetus, the primary motivation behind all of it. Why God? Why consciousness - especially if it is primordial? Why physical existence at all? This is all very sophisticated thinking and very elaborate, but where is the connection between it and the most primitive thing that can ever exist - the primary existential unit?

If physical existence is capable of organized development - which it obviously is, since you and I are the direct result of the organized development of physical existence - then what is it that drapes just "over" the physical realm and sets the table (so to speak) for organized development to emerge? It certainly can't be affected by any form of dynamic physical existence, and yet it must have the capacity to restrict and/or enable dynamic activity within the physical realm, and it must be capable of this without requiring its own organizational development - since that would open the premise to an entire realm of existence that such a notion could not explain.

No, this whatever-it-is must be so primitive as to be indivisible, while being absolutely interlaced within the whole of the physical realm to the extent that we deal with it all the time without even thinking about it.

This is the kind of thinking that brings you to the truth concerning God, humanity and physical existence. Sophisticated esoteric musings will only send you further and further away from the starting line if this is the journey you're really trying to take.

We are dust in the wind.
Star dust, to be precise.
To be, or not to be.
Why is where and when.
Who is what and how we are to become.

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

What is missing is the base impetus, the primary motivation behind all of it. Why God?

The answer to that I think is simply

"Because I love you".

And for love to be love, there needs to be two or more, not JUST one.

Originally posted by xiphias
We are dust in the wind.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with that, but I do love the song



And it appears that Jesus may have been performing a role in this one too!

reply to post by xiphias

In all seriousness, while it may appear that that is "all we are" (stardust in the wind), all indication, according to modern science, is that everything, including ourselves, represents some form of tangled hieararchy, with an intentionality of fate - while at the same time, if at all possible, liberating us, to participate as co-creators within a boundless realm or domain, of infinite possibility and freedom ie: set free for freedom's sake, to freely love as we are loved.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


The definition of wind varies.
One could say it is a breath of song.
Most would say it is lifeless and random.

reply to post by xiphias


www.youtube.com...

wind..

Originally posted by remrem
here's my take on it, what I have read and learned from human and spiritual sources;

Firstly who is asking the question? Your mind? brain? the driver of the physical body? Who is that?
Call is soul or spirit, or whatever you like.

We live in a contrasting/duality, ie light and dark, love and hate, male and female. Basically separation.
In the beginning there was no separation, all that was nothingness yet everythingness.

God - ALL that IS, Father, Mother - The creator, since it was all knowing, wanted to experience itself.
The only way to do that was separation, big bang, a thought occured.

Everything was created in every direction, time, dimension and every direction we cannot comprehend.
All beings on earth and every other possibility, were created, as splinters of the Creator.

In order to experience something, life, love etc, there has to be no prior knowledge of it.

We chose to incarnate. We chose the parents, situation, country and situation.

Only a portion of our soul is present in our current incarnation we are aware of, ie you. We have many other simultaneous incarnations, in this time, others, this dimension and others and other solar systems.

Death is a return to source, its a beginning not ending.

I answer to Who am I - your are "god", parts of the whole, all that is. You are here to experience, driven by free will. Its the ultimate reality show I guess.

There is only one of us in the room, you are me and I am you. All people on this planet are reflections of you, the whole, all that is.

Nope I cannot prove any of it.

edit on 3-11-2010 by remrem because: (no reason given)

This was just so awesome - I would like to "quote it for truth", as they say.

I believe what you're talking about, and I always wonder that about reincarnation - if there are an infinite amount of universes, than how would that work with the soul, and you pretty much summed it up.

So is there even individuality as far as the soul is concerned? If it's part of the great creator, are the souls given a "veil" themselves? This is interesting stuff. Exactly along the lines of what I have postulated (from what I have read throughout the years and would like to believe). What else can you tell us?

Originally posted by impaired
If it's part of the great creator, are the souls given a "veil" themselves? This is interesting stuff.

Might it be the very "monkey body", to quote Terence McKenna, that we are uh, wearing, right now..? Or do you mean between lives, so as not to lose our individuality? As far as I know, at least from my searching, our own integrity is never violated, or destroyed or completely dissolved, apparently the "game" must go on, and since there is nothing that is not, and we're in it now.. to quote the Eagles, while "we can check out any time we like, we can never leave". However, it's a present moment thing I have come to conclude, that we must come to see it now, or we may never see it. The final point of demarcation is always now. We must be born from above of the spirit, to see the kingdom of heaven, or to find our true place in it, and in the process discover ourselves as if for the first time, as children of a loving God, reborn into eternity, at the end of time, and there is never a better time than the present, as they say.

I think we are like pent up water drops, too chicken sh_t to go over the falls, because what awaits and who and what we are to become, until we go over, still remains suspended, in an unknown unknown, but here's the key I think, that if we go together, and do it now, a new world awaits, one which will make it's appearance however fast or slow, and then we won't need another veil. We won't CARE anymore, even if death were the end of this life! Because we would then know and have awareness, that we are already in it now, and therefore already in eternity.

There's a type of NLP reframe I suspect (perhaps already available..), capable of reinventing and revitalizing the whole world, according to a whole new way of looking at it and at ourselves, which isn't really new at all, just something very old made new again, like a seed planted deeply a very long time ago, bursting forth through a bulge in the earth, to extend it's first shoot from the "rizome" to the heavenly light of a new day and a new dawn. What some call the "re-enchantment of the cosmos". I don't know about you, but I like the sound of that very much.

On that note, I came across the letter that I'd like to share with you all.

Human Regeneration

an article published as a booklet, by N. Sri Ram, 1985

Everything that is good, enlightening, that is calculated to alleviate another's trouble and inspire him with courage, every improvement of social, political and other conditions is part of evolution. But we must discover what is most worth doing by us, what we should especially aim at, because the needs of humanity are so very various.

The Masters of Wisdom, who aid evolution, although They are interested in all changes that make for human progress, are especially concerned with the spiritual regeneration of mankind, which is of fundamental importance. Because, when that takes place, all else follows. The forces that are brought into play in the regeneration will themselves have their effect on the external conditions. But if the changes are merely external, after a time they may all be lost or undone. There have been various golden ages in the history of mankind, epochs when life was tranquil, when people were happy and kind and good; but all of them have vanished, and we have come into this strife, the present confusion and misery.

We can see, therefore, that merely to produce an outer change is not enough. It is like teaching good manners. There has to be a change in man fundamentally. This is precisely what Krishnamurti speaks of and aims at, a certain fundamental change as a consequence of which all the necessary changes in organization and behavior will come about automatically and with the greatest possible ease. When you see for yourself what is the truth, you will act in accordance with that truth. You do not then need any direction, except that truth. What the Masters want, in addition to anything useful that we may be doing or may be able to do, is this regeneration, beginning with ourselves. The possibility of such regeneration, even the predestination of it, is perhaps the most inspiring truth of Theosophy.

In the regions where there is a change of seasons, such as Europe, a tree of the deciduous type grows old each autumn and sheds its leaves. It looks as though it is dead in winter, but then it is reborn in spring with fresh foliage and flowers. This is a phenomenon that repeats itself. Now the same thing happens with regard to every human being; for we die and are reborn as physical and psychic entities, and with each death the collection of previous memories belonging to the past life completely falls away, and we come back fresh and pure with a new nature. But we are unable to retain this nature; we do not remain clean or fresh or tender as we were when we were born. Very quickly we are overlaid with impressions, we become distorted and coloured in various ways and cease to be what we were in the innocence and charm of our childhood.

Though the past is dead, the tendencies of the past come to life again; they are so deep-rooted that they do not die for a very long time; they remain buried in the soil of our nature. Even when everything on the surface has died, they persist and grow again. They become active as soon as there are conditions favourable to their activity. You may see a child that is most charming, with beautiful possibilities, but after a few years somehow all that charm is gone. Look at the same individual grown into a man or woman, or later still when the meridian has been reached and passed. He or she is so hard and set, the beauty of the early years a mere memory, perhaps dissipated, with the phenomenon of decay writ large on the person. But if the environment is favourable, the undesirable tendencies may remain latent, even for a whole lifetime. This is understandable from our own experience of people. A person may have certain inward cravings or propensities, but without opportunities for these to be indulged they seem non-existent. In the absence of temptation many of us can surely be virtuous. The tendencies rest like mud at the bottom of a river. The water flows over the mud, it is clean and usable, but when there is a gale, flood or some other disturbance, it becomes muddy at once, charged with all the impurities that till then had lain quiet on the river bed.

In our modern life, where everything is being stirred up to a degree, there is no lack of opportunity for any latent tendency to be awakened. The merest breath of an influence seems enough sometimes to start it into action, just as a faint odour of liquor is sufficient to revive the craving of a drunkard. In these days because of so much movement, so much taking place, that affects people in different ways, so many thoughts, activities and distractions, the influences are very much more mixed than they were ever before. Therefore deterioration sets in all the more quickly; the charm, freshness and innocence which could last longer under more natural conditions tend soon to wear away.

But there comes a time in the long series of lives - it does not come by itself, because the human intelligence and will are involved in the process - when the soul is able to rid itself completely of the effects of the past, it sheds its accumulation once for all and stands out in its own pure nature.

It may be asked: what about the capacities that have been developed? The capacities remain because they belong not to the outer nature but to the soul. The mere accumulation of experience is not an unmixed blessing. When people say that they must have experience, is the experience they seek itself a good thing? The seeking of experience can mean dissipation, it generally hardens an individual, and produces complexities. But in the very process of accumulating experience, of making money, for instance, certain capacities are developed. We learn how to deal with the differences of the material world with a mind which becomes gradually rapier-like and all-round in its movements. These capacities, in themselves, belong to the pure nature of the soul.

If we think of the soul as pure being, active with a pure consciousness, what eclipses its nature, supresses it, is the distortion which that consciousness undergoes. There is some distortion in each one of us but we become so accustomed to it that we are not conscious that it exists. We think we are natural when we are unnatural; we even believe in being artificial. It is this distorted consciousness, which assumes a certain shape, acts in a certain specific way, in each case, which we call our minds.

It is only by attaining a knowledge of whatever distortions exist, whatever illusions, that we can become free of them. Then the consciousness regains its natural state because of an extraordinary elasticity innate in its nature. It then attains an expertness and ease, of which we do not have any idea at present.

Reverting to the analogy of a plant, the spiritual man is a plant which has freshly sprung from its root, but without any deteriorating elements. Everything of the outer nature except the developed capacities has falle away. He is a new man reborn in spirit. He is a plant whose whole nature is now irradiated with the essence of its incorruptible roots. The roots of our being are always undecaying. They are in that deepest spiritual part of ourselves which is untouched by the experience that we undergo on the superficial side of ourselves. But if we think of the mind or the consciousness which springs from those roots, that can be both spiritual and material.

The mind
The mind has a dual nature. In Samskrit the mind which deals with the differences of matter (and is affected by them) is termed Manas. It is that mind which thinks in terms of differences and establishes the relations of thought. But the mind which knows the unity and experiences it, is termed Buddhi. These are two terms kept separate in Samskrit philosophy. There is a part of Manas which is one with Buddhi and that is the more spiritual part, as distinguished from its material complement. They are essentially one, but separate in manifestation and even opposed to each other when the latter is under the dominance of sensations of matter and the desires which those sensations breed through memory. It is really desire in every form which causes our troubles. If I desire something and am bent on getting it, and someone hinders me, I flare up into resentment. From desire anger is born, as says the Bhagavad Gita. It is the desire for position or power or enjoyment of any sort which makes us egotistic and indifferent to others. Absorbed in its pursuit we have no attention or consideration to give to anybody or anything else.

It is only when a particular weakness shows itself in an exaggerated form that we generally realize its true nature. So long as it is of small magnitude and does not show itself forcibly, we excuse ourselves by saying it is a trifle, a common failing, it is human to be so. We do not treat poison as poison until it becomes dangerous. It is the influence of our wishes and hopes on our way of looking at things which is the cause of so many illusions, because if you desire something very much, you become willing to accept the conditions for its satisfaction.

Fundamentally the trouble lies in our attachment to the experiences we have had in the past. When this attachment becomes active we call it desire, but even when it is not active the attachment remains. If I have been addicted to drink, and even if at the present moment I do not have feel the craving, the craving is still there. It will raise its head very soon, because there is a period of activation which has to alternate with a period of rest due to bodily changes. This has to be deeply understood and realized. The understanding which is needed is not just a mental understanding, which is superficial. Such an understanding does not change the will because it is full of mental reservations. When we realize a truth for ourselves completely and freely, the truth then frees us from the errors and superstitions which flourish in its absence. We are not any one of us as free as we imagine ourselves to be; we think we are free when we have a kind of superficial outward freedom. But from the inner standpoint we have only freedom to loose our freedom, which we do quickly.

When there is freedom at last for Manas, which is the intelligence that deals with the differences of matter, it becomes united with Buddhi in which resides a knowledge of the unity, and which is its true counterpart. The higher spiritual nature which belongs to Buddhi manifests itself then in the field of Manas and it is for the latter a rebirth out of matter into Spirit. This is a change of vast significance, which has to take place in every individual. The mind, having freed itself completely from the influences to which it was previously subject, attains a state in which it is unaffected by the changing conditions of matter. It is unaffected, yet at the same time extraordinarily quick in its perceptions and movements. It does not lose its sensitiveness, on the other hand it becomes a thousand times more impressionable than before. It is alive to every change, feels every impact, is able to give itself completely to each phenomenon of life that arises. Normally when we do something, listen to music, for instance, we do not listen with the whole of our capacity, making ourselves completely empty and negative, so as to drink in every note and perceive the significance of that note in the relationship of notes. We meet life, almost every phenomenon of life, with only a little portion fo ourselves. If we imagine an individual as a sphere of being, which is both capacity and sensibility, it is just a segment of it with which we meet the world in which we live and move.

But when the consciousness becomes free from the fixed images with which it is clogged, from the fixed patterns of its thought and feeling, it becomes completely elastic, then it is able at each moment of time to give itself totally to the experience of that moment. It is mobile and responsive in every way; yet along with this mobility and responsiveness, it is able to remain unaffected by fluctuations of external conditions, by 'heat and cold, honour and dishonour, success and failure,' to use the language of the Bhagavad Gita. These things just come and go, like ripples on a sheet of water. The consciousness merely reflects the changes, registers them, understands them, and they pass. It is sensitive and tranquil at the same time, a beautiful state to be in. It would not be correct to think that because a Yogi is sensitive he must be easily disturbed; because he is open, he must be affected by every influence. He is open, but not disturbed. His consciousness is like an ocean of sensitive calm, which enfolds everything, but mixes with nothing.

the alphabet of spiritual living
What we are learning is merely the alphabet of spiritual living. We must learn, for instance, to be conscious of how we are living. Then there comes a time when the moment we think something, say something or form a judgement based on our personal reactions contrary to the whole purpose of our life as we understand it, we are aware that the wrong note has been struck. The state at which we should aim is an awareness of all that we are doing; which does not mean we should become highly self-conscious, absorbed in our own thoughts and feelings. For that would also become a hindrance. But the moment the wrong not is struck there must be a feeling that that note does not belong to the music of our being. That would be really the perfection of self-knowledge.

But we have to begin somewhere, we cannot immediately reach that perfection. I do not think that any one of us can do it, unless of course he has already prepared himself. Therefore we make a certain beginning with discipline in daily life, including some meditation, study and so on. When there is self-awareness, we do not imagine that we do anything more than just begin a new kind of life. But to know the path along which we should go and be humble is a great thing. A fundamental contradiction in ourselves is between the self and the ideal with which it seeks to clothe itself. We have to become aware of the contradiction.

When we really understand the problem, how complete is the nature of the change that is required, we cease to be impatient. It does not matter how long it takes, we know the direction and we should follow it; there will be many problems and we can tackle them. Our impatience really born out of ambition; it is a condition of feverishness, which arises because we want to 'get there', instead of understanding the problems that we should deal with. The attitude that we should adopt is that of taking things as they are and doing the best with them, dealing with the situation in the outside world and the situation in ourselves. We should do what we can each moment and pass on quietly to the next.

Even short of the fundamental change that has to be brought about, there can be a regenerated humanity, in the sense of a humanity redeemed by its better nature. There is good and there is evil in all of us, and as mentioned already, under favourable conditions the better nature will prevail. Mankind can be helped to see what is right and what is true; that is part of our work. It may be that we cannot yet do all that it might be possible for us to do some day but then we can help our fellowmen to the extent of our capacity. We can do this through the teachings of Theosophy and by our own example. If we begin in a small way we will find that we are able to do more and more. That is an extraordinary thing to find out and discover for oneself. You begin to give of our affection to those around you, you will find there is more affection to give; you begin serving in some way, you will find that there are ways in which you can serve better. There is an infinity in each one of us out of which to give and we have to discover that infinity for ourselves by the giving, and there is not other way. If you sit in a chair and say, now I am going to discover the infinity within myself, you will never discover it. It is only by making the current flow that more can be made to flow.

It was said by one of the Great Ones: Forget yourself only to remember the good of other people. We cannot have better advice than that. But how to forget ourselves? All of us are so preoccupied with ourselves, with what we want, what we aim at, the position which we should hold, the estimation which other people should have of ourselves, what we may lose, so many things, so many thoughts and interests, centered in what we call 'ourselves'. If we can forget ourselves, we will find that our progress will become easy, it will take place swiftly and naturally, because it then becomes a process of unfoldment from within. Then we will be able to realize the truth of the saying in Light on the Path, 'Grow as the flower grows, unconsciously,' but open to all that is good and true and beautiful. We can have the most perfect assurance as to our goal and progress. Why should we be concerned with our progress? It takes place by itself. Our only concern is with how we should live and what we should do now.

Concentrate on anything in life except yourself and your wants, on Truth, on the Masters, on the help to be given, on understanding those about you, you will find that what you concentrate on, without bringing yourself into it, acquires a certain deep significance. It is the obsession with oneself which is the greatest impediment. The whole problem of the spiritual life consists in this abolition of self, in living our life without thinking too much of ourselves, in doing what we can to help others.

Here is my question then, to the group, or whoever..

Is it a sin in any way, do you think, to try to or wish to Immanentize the eschaton?

en.wikipedia.org...

Or, is the Roman Catholic Church correct in its proclamation that this represents the greatest heresy, and that heaven must wait.. ?

Because I think we're up against that question now, that choice.

Personally, I think that Jesus mission and vision was for a participative eschatology, and that NOW is always the time to do whatever we can in this regard, with whatever resources we can access or muster ie: meditation, prayer, contemplation, revelation, gnosis, understanding, awareness, sharing, etc.

Like, if not now, then when?, and if not us, then who?

I suspect that it's terrible theology, to call this a heresy, since it appears to have been Jesus' mission and vision for us, with himself and his Christ-mind serving as a model of authentic leadership and inspiration.

We are not to worship Jesus as much as we are to become like him, remade in the full stature of Christ, along with becoming in the process our fullest and truest selves, as intended by God, and thus, SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, now.

Ok, enough from me, but these are the things that are surfacing for me in this thread that I felt I must share, and express, for whatever its worth.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Here is my question then, to the group, or whoever..

Is it a sin in any way, do you think, to try to or wish to Immanentize the eschaton?

en.wikipedia.org...

Or, is the Roman Catholic Church correct in its proclamation that this represents the greatest heresy, and that heaven must wait.. ?

Because I think we're up against that question now, that choice.

Personally, I think that Jesus mission and vision was for a participative eschatology, and that NOW is always the time to do whatever we can in this regard, with whatever resources we can access or muster ie: meditation, prayer, contemplation, revelation, gnosis, understanding, awareness, sharing, etc.

Like, if not now, then when?, and if not us, then who?

I suspect that it's terrible theology, to call this a heresy, since it appears to have been Jesus' mission and vision for us, with himself and his Christ-mind serving as a model of authentic leadership and inspiration.

We are not to worship Jesus as much as we are to become like him, remade in the full stature of Christ, along with becoming in the process our fullest and truest selves, as intended by God, and thus, SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, now.

Ok, enough from me, but these are the things that are surfacing for me in this thread that I felt I must share, and express, for whatever its worth.

edit on 14-11-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

Hey newageman! I kept thinking someone with more...more...well, what, eloquence? Ideas? would pop up in here to keep your thread fresh because I think it's such a good conversation. It just might be over some of our capacity to assimilate all that deep thinking and we're left not sure what to say. I'm quite sure you've held rank in the top of your class.

Some years ago I read Sri Ram--re-reading some of it here in your post brought him (and other things) back to mind that I'd pretty much forgotten. I can agree with much of his writing since he is so general, it's easy to meld his philosophies with many scopes.

Leadership and inspiration--and you could then expound on "model" and add more simply, "by example"! I have to agree pretty closely with your interpertations in Jesus as you see him as a man.

I'll stay hopeful to hear from some other bright minds who may pop in!

Anna

We are the dreamer dreaming the dream.

Reality is much much bigger than we experience. Our brains are wired to take a measly trickle of realtiy and manufacture our world of experience from it. In this process, only a narrow range of frequencies gets through. There are many other frequencies that could be processed by the brain, but aren't. However sometimes we can tune into other levels of reality through meditation, spiritual practice, entheogenic drugs, etc.

I think the only thing anyone can ever be sure of is this...

We are conscious beings, where the conscious is and what we are actually being conscious about is all up in the air.

At least we are all on the same wavelength and able to "perceive" relatively the same events.

Originally posted by dan4112However sometimes we can tune into other levels of reality through meditation, spiritual practice, entheogenic drugs, etc.

Precisely. If we want to experience "more" then we're going to have to embark on a journey of some kind, from which something novel can be experienced.

We've got to start getting excited about change and transformation, for ourselves, and seek it out and find it wherever we can, otherwise, given the current state of affairs of our world, the alternative is quite bleak imho.

There's nowhere to go anymore, but up.

I reckon there are those of us who are constantly trying to transcend our reptilian brain.
Hence all the questions and frustrations in trying to figure it all out.
And there are those of us, who just like the other species on earth, follow their genetic programming and just do what comes naturally.
I've often wondered who is the most happy. As it often seems like ignorance is bliss.
A friend of mine said something to me ages ago that got me thinking.
And that was...... In your world, in your mind, you are what you think you are. Whatever that is.

reply to post by Flighty


I don't know, I've had a taste of something more, and it's nice, but LONELY, that's the only problem with it.

There's more than food, sex, family and fun, or a lack of those things. I am not just an animal. And there is a place in us which transcends our animal nature and reptillian brainstem "fight or flight" response mechanism.