Operation "Charlie" and fascinating coincidence of timelines?

Firstly an apology. There are no *must see videos*.... *proof beyond doubt* headlines in this one. What we do have though is truly fascinating case that pre-dates the Arnold sightings and throws up a fascinating coincidence of time lines.

I have googled "Operation Charlie" and it would seem that, this is your lot, it is one that had slipped under the RADAR (sic) as it were. Never the less, in the wake of umpteen flashing lights and floating swiss thrill seekers, what we do have here is a nicely researched and well presented record of something that, to this day is still an unknown.

The incidents date from the winter of 1947, one of the very worst on record in Britain and involve RADAR contacts and British interceptors being vectored in to chase them.

www.uk-ufo.org... By Dr David Clarke, a person I must admit, I have a growing respect for, for both his investigations and his ability to collate and present the information in a clear and precise manner.

Furtter reading about the sighting and an analysis of the original RADAR report investigation can be found here.

www.project1947.com... By Martin Shough.



Now something struck me here. notably the following.
..
16th January 1947: The general conclusion of FO Sewart's report on the events of Operation Charlie was that the targets were probably weather balloons From Martin Shough's appraisal of the report.

Then, from Dr Clarke's investigation.

Six months later, in July 1947 the FBI agreed to help the USAAF’s embryonic study of ‘flying disks’ that would became Project Sign. One of a number of unexplained incidents forwarded to the bureau was a copy of the brief Air Ministry memo concerning the North Sea incident. [12] The Air Ministry case summary stated that: ‘…no explanation has been forthcoming, nor has it been repeated.’


I strongly suspect the report also contained the *weather balloon* explanation of the RADAR sightings.. Now, in July 1947....... who was looking for an earthly explanation of a strange occurrence?

I don't want to take away from what are, both excellent reports by both Clarke and Shough however, I have to admit that *coincidence* made me sit up and smile.

I hope people enjoy discovering this well researched and fascinating case from the pre "Flying Saucer" era. I believe it should be far better known.

Here's a link to the RAF memorandum...

www.project1947.com...

Nice finds on those sites. I have read parts of what was on those sites before and it is some interesting stuff. Its hard to say what the blips on the radar really were but it seems like to me it probley was just Soviet spy planes.

I'd agree but the point is made that. The speed of the contact reported in the press seems to have greatly underestimated. it has been recalculated at 1000 mph and several of the flying crew suggest it was pulling maneouvers outside the performance envelope of an aircraft. Now I believe there is evidence to suggest the Russians broke the sound barrier before Yeager did. However, that was with an, at the time, highly experimental aircraft, later developed into a fighter. That said, I really can't see them risking such a craft in such an early stage of its' development over unfriendly skies. The fact they kept it quiet for so long, they had even broken the sound barrier, further lends credence to the idea they would be unlikely to risk losing such a craft over England?

reply to post by FireMoon

Sorry to disagree but I feel they would risk the plane.
After it has achieved that speed several times then it can't be lost.
The one plane has little value once the design is verified.

Why not test it for what it was designed for and rub it in the noses of the farthest European
,uh, competitor?

Because the testing ground were on the other side of the Urals tucked well away from prying eyes?

www.aerospaceweb.org...

This would seem to scotch the idea of of it being Russian.

I dont think you can rule out all together the Russian spy plane idea. At the end of W.W. II both the U.S. and Russia made a mad dash to retrieve scientists and aeronautical personnel. With Germany being among the first to use jet technology on their aircraft I don't think it is out of the idea that maybe they had something they were flying that was very advanced for the time. The U.S. flew the U-2 spyplane and the SR-71 over hostile locations and these planes were classified at the time. They did it because the U-2 could fly so high that they thought it could not be shot down and the SR-71 could outrun any attacks launched on it. If the Russians felt that it was advanced enough they may not worry about flying it into unfriendly territory until that area makes advancements in their technology. They also could have been flying them out of East Germany as that was land controled by the Soviets and it is an industrial center for Europe and not to mention one of areas in Soviet control that was rebuilt and the most prosperous.

Only the U2 wasn't actually very good...in truth an extremely expensive flop. The fact is, the only planes in January 1947 anywhere near capable of supersonic flight on a level trajectory were rocket powered. The simple fuel to weight ratio meant, they had extremely short endurance, maybe 20-30 minutes including glide time. The sightings from that month preclude anything of that sort of performance. The truth is, the Russians simply didn't waste their time on *badge* projects like the U2,. they simply sent satellites up into space and spied on American testing grounds, etc with impunity.

What's more, those rocket aircraft were launched from under wing whilst aloft. There would have been a clear RADAR track of its' mother plane and an obvious point of separation. Given that, I'd guess the chance of it being Russian in January 1947 are less than 5% and that's being generous.

perhaps the Russians got ahold of a horten bomber. The horten bomber was very advanced for its time. It was a precursor to modern stealth and also had a high flying elevation & max speed. It could be possible that the russians were testing this aircraft against the radar system it was designed to get through. I also do realize that the idea behind the U-2 spyplane was not the best as its only defense is to fly really high but it couldnt have been that big of a flop as they are still used to this day. At this time the Russians had not put anything in orbit around the Earth so why would they be thinking that far ahead to only using satellites to spy on Europe?

Nope, not a Horten To the best of my knowledge only one ever flew and it crashed and was totally destroyed. The Horten that everyone jumps on was a glider version of the projected final project used for ground testing. In fact the Americans went out of their way to make sure the Russians never managed to lay their hands on a Horten.


Not much is left of the legacy regarding the Ho 229 beyond a scant few airframes and a handful of black and white (and some color) pictures. The Ho IV and the Ho 229 V3 were captured by the Americans and shipped off to Northrop for further research. The Ho IV glider ended up at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California. The Ho 229 V3 prototype airframe has been sitting in the Paul E. Garber Restoration Facility at Suitland, Maryland for some years now under the control of the National Air & Space Museum. Though at least five other Ho 229 airframes were recovered at the Gothaer Waggonfabrik plant, these were subsequently destroyed (under orders initiated through Operation Paperclip - the destruction of all advanced German materials and research for fear of them falling into Soviet hands) by General George S. Patton's 3rd Army troops in April of 1945.

From ... www.militaryfactory.com...

Well you are mistaken when you think that the only Horten Bomber to fly crashed because the Horten Vc and the Horten VII were flown I have picture of them in flight in a book that I have. On the site you provided it says that a Horten crashed but not that the only Horten flown had crashed. Also you can't say that the Russians did not get of the Horten information because that is near impossible to say for sure. In Operation Paperclip the U.S. rushed to exploit German accomplishments and keep them out of the Russians hands but they mostly took upper level technicians and scientists and left many of the lower level scientists and technicians. Also the U.S. let alot of what they did not find as important pretty much go as we focused on stage rockets and let the Russians have take the bundle rocket scientists and look how that turned out. The Soviets were the first in space. I have read quit a bit about Operation Paperclip and I have not read that we wanted the Horten Bomber that bad. I still don't rule out Russina using newly gained German technology.