I'm as scared of 2012 as I am of the dark

The fluctuations in space and time that our tiny galaxy passes through as it charts it's unknown course through the universe, inevitably bend and warp "true" time without our even knowing it. Therefor our sun-centric calendar is completely useless in determining the "actual" time and date at any given point. Since the days of the Mayans and Nostradamus, "actual" time could have been twisted unpredictably. Who's to say that 2012 hasn't come and gone 50 years ago? Who's to say it still isn't 25 years off? Who's to say that because a fly in Mozambique farted on a rhino's nose making it run from the smell, thus kicking up a dust cloud that started a chain reaction to form a storm etc. etc. etc......which completely averts the whole 2012 catastrophe all together isn't the case?

I just irritates me to no end to see the lemmings buy in to crap like 2012. It's a fascination with sensationalism and an intimate relationship with paranoia that our culture has developed that gets my goat. It's sick. Very few people think independently anymore. Either they soak it all in or bury their heads in the sand and waste their God-given gift of cognitive thought.

We are a people too afraid to think for ourselves. It's safer, more convenient and some how status quot to let someone else do it for us. From issues of God and Science, to food and entertainment, we would rather let the talking heads on our T.V., monitors, or those behind pulpits think for us. I see little difference in today's mind set from the days that a Latin Bible was chained to the pulpit in the Catholic Church. Since we can't speak the language of physicists or theologians, we will believe them, no matter what they say. Disregard your gut. Forget your instinct. Ignore the world(s) around you and believe the regurgitation.

Weigh nothing. Make a decision soon. Tomorrow may not come and you will have not placed your mind. Heaven forbid you stop, wait and think. Heaven forbid not making a choice. You HAVE to vote. You HAVE to chose. We have forgotten that NOT choosing is a choice. We would rather choose what is a blatant affront to a realistic view then sit on the fence until the facts are in and we can make an educated choice.

And who cares if we all die or have no power or whatever tomorrow? I still have had a nice life. And my children are beautiful and I love them and they are a blessing that could be taken from me at any second even without the threat of 2012. I'll live in the moment I have, thank you. I can't change the past and the future ain't even in my hands yet, making now all I got. So, I'll take it.

P.S. This is my first thread and I apologize if it's a bit dis-jointed. I'll get more practice.

The first thing I would say in reply is. Well done! You like your life and you have children that you love! Thats a lot more then quite a lot of people have in the world and you should be glad of it a cherish every second of it!

The only other thing I could say is that you maybe shouldn't call other posters things like lemmings in my short time on this forum I have been called everything from a government agent to a "Sheeple" and it never really helped the discussion either way.

Good luck to you and long may you continue to be happy!

reply to post by davespanners


I've been called worse. The truth hurts. The truth, although, is the only thing that has any chance of doing anyone any good. My words should do them no more damage then the words you're proposing the will spew will do to me.

And getting to my current position in life was not a glistening road of candy canes and gum drops. Demons, death, and suicidal tendencies lined my streets for many, many days.

reply to post by no1elsebuttme


Why is it always either/or with 2012? You're either a lemming or an enlightened rational being. It's really the Mayan end times or there is absolutely nothing going on at all, nothing to see here folks.

Don't get fooled into their framing tactic. 2012 is a massive social engineering project.

@Dave, I said I was sorry!

Fear not, NOTHING will happen in 2012. we will,however, find something out about Einstein and have advance information about a 'freezing war',but that is it. stay calm and happy!

reply to post by no1elsebuttme


don't be, it's just a load of prophecy-whores trying to fear-monger.

There are risks of solar flares/meteorites but nothing we can't protect ourselves from if we discuss in a civilised mannar.

Don't believe anything anyone says without the required evidence to back up the claim. Deny ignorance, expose charlatans, prevent frauds.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Thank you all for stopping in and adding to my first thread thus far. However, I must say, that I was rather expecting a few more folks with a, how shall I say it, more "passionate" opinion. I suppose the thread is still young. We shall see what today brings.

To the member Awake-and-Aware, thank you for your affirming words. I appreciate knowing there are like-minded people out there. But without getting ad-hominid, I have to ask a two questions that one of which you should be able to answer on this thread without it being off topic. The question is as follows:

1. What actual repeatedly validated scientific observations unanimously agreed upon by a variety of experts in the field of astronomy/astrophysics gives you the idea that there will be an increased occurrence/severity of solar events specifically during the dates of January 1, 2012 and December 31, 2012 or any dates closely preceding or following said time span?

2.(Moderators; please be liberal here. Although the answer to this question may not necessarily be directly related to the issues surrounding 2012, I feel that it does have bearing on the topic due to the angle that the member took in his initial reply to my OP.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by no1elsebuttme

 

don't be, it's just a load of prophecy-whores trying to fear-monger.

There are risks of solar flares/meteorites but nothing we can't protect ourselves from if we discuss in a civilised mannar.

Don't believe anything anyone says without the required evidence to back up the claim. Deny ignorance, expose charlatans, prevent frauds.

You can see by his post he is making several assumptions that would need to be otherwise validated and based on the first link provided in the member's signature, I have the desire to better understand his perspective in general and how it affects his opinion on this topic.) Question Preface: I have watched the film Zeitgiest, several times in fact, and after many hours of tedious independent research I have to say that little to none of the films claims can be substantiated. From beginning to end it continually jumps across the lines of fiction and known fact. From it's take on the "Solar Messiahs" to it's liberal interpretation of the Bible, to it's accusations towards the "big money" businesses in the U.S. it repeatedly uses quotes that can not be found in any letters or documents anywhere and the few quotes that can ACTUALLY be verified are generally twisted and taken rather far out of context. Although I have always felt that our government/media/religious institutions/our own blissful and apathetic ignorance are working in an orchestrated manner to the end of our final undoing, I do NOT feel that the film did any justice what so ever towards the benefit of proving such a view. I feel it did a great disservice to those who have that gut feeling by misrepresenting the very truth that the ones it accuses misrepresent. So much so, that it IS the same category of propaganda that it is allegedly trying to fight.

Finally, the question: Is your view of 2012 and it's associated inevitable calamities in all aspects founded in reality or have you bought in to a similar propaganda machine as the Zeitgiest film? Question follow up: Again, I am not trying to in anyway attack you as a person or your ability to think independently. As I said previously, I am glad to have your rational and less "apocalyptic" input on my thread.

Hi,

Firstly, do not Worry.. that road only leads to disempowerment.

Secondly, these concepts some refer to as doom and gloom are really meant to get you to find your Inner Strengths.

Growth can only come to us outside of our comfort zones.

We have choice in every moment. You can make your life a little easier by appearing to toe-the-line, even as you learn about healtheir ways to live, study your garden for healing, find a spot in nature that calls out to you, leanr how to grow your own food, etc.

So we can choose to live in Fear and be disempowered because of that, or we can stand up and make effective decisions for ourselves while not rocking the boat and getting unwanted attention.

I just irritates me to no end to see the lemmings buy in to crap like 2012. It's a fascination with sensationalism and an intimate relationship with paranoia that our culture has developed that gets my goat. It's sick. Very few people think independently anymore. Either they soak it all in or bury their heads in the sand and waste their God-given gift of cognitive thought.

I think you are being unfair.
I think you are generalizing to much, too.
But I too share your frustration.

I understand your point, but the 2012 trend is typical of our society updating beliefs into contemporary contexts.
We do it all the time.
In the case of 2012, it is merely astrological prophecy combined with the twisting and interpretations of Mayan culture in order to create mysticism surrounding aspects of this ancient culture.
Mixed into this, is scientific and technological knowledge of certain aspects of our universe that are inserted to support a belief already established, in order to make these new religious beliefs plausible and possible within that dominant scientific and technological paradigm of our contemporary times.
What we end up is a mix of astrology and ancient astronomy with new scientific and technological knowledge concerning the universe that updates older out dated religious or supernatural prophecy.
What we get is 2012.
If you look at a wide range of "supernatural" beliefs, you will see trends in these differing supernatural aspects absorbing these new beliefs into that supernatural aspect.
By this I mean, look at Crop Circles, ET/Alien contactees, Clairvoyants, Psychics and Channellers or "walk-ins" etc etc as examples, you will notice that they all integrate this 2012 belief into their dogma or doctrines.
It was exactly the same surrounding the evolution of the ET/Alien phenomena.
Many traditional supernatural beliefs updated to include Alien/ET influences.

That's the funny thing about humans.
We tend to have habits.

We are a people too afraid to think for ourselves.

Most people who don't think for themselves, settle for stereotypes and cheap generalization.

It's safer, more convenient and some how status quot to let someone else do it for us. From issues of God and Science, to food and entertainment, we would rather let the talking heads on our T.V., monitors, or those behind pulpits think for us.

Speak for yourself.

I see little difference in today's mind set from the days that a Latin Bible was chained to the pulpit in the Catholic Church.

I guess we must live in different worlds.

Since we can't speak the language of physicists or theologians, we will believe them, no matter what they say. Disregard your gut. Forget your instinct. Ignore the world(s) around you and believe the regurgitation.

I find that, even though I disagree with many poster on this forum, the vast majority of members on ATS are here because they don't generally accept or believe everything they are told.
In fact, many, many poster challenge conventional theology and even some of the "established laws of physics".
I guess I disagree with what you have just told me.

Weigh nothing. Make a decision soon. Tomorrow may not come and you will have not placed your mind. Heaven forbid you stop, wait and think. Heaven forbid not making a choice. You HAVE to vote. You HAVE to chose. We have forgotten that NOT choosing is a choice. We would rather choose what is a blatant affront to a realistic view then sit on the fence until the facts are in and we can make an educated choice.

You raise a good point.
Choice seems to grow exponentially in our world today.
I saw a lecture, can't remember were...TED's maybe that eluded to the fact that so much choice in in fact killing our ability to function productively simply because we are unable to make informed balanced decision because we are overcome by choice.

And who cares if we all die or have no power or whatever tomorrow?

I do!

I still have had a nice life. And my children are beautiful and I love them and they are a blessing that could be taken from me at any second even without the threat of 2012. I'll live in the moment I have, thank you. I can't change the past and the future ain't even in my hands yet, making now all I got. So, I'll take it.

Good for you. Regardless of what belief any of us may have about 2012, I think you wisely point out that fear is destructive no matter what you believe.

P.S. This is my first thread and I apologize if it's a bit dis-jointed. I'll get more practice.

edit on 23-10-2010 by no1elsebuttme because: (no reason given)

Congrats. I'll give you a star and flag for that.

reply to post by no1elsebuttme

Therefor our sun-centric calendar is completely useless in determining the "actual" time and date at any given point.

Time is relative to the frame of reference. Our measurements of time are related to astronomical events. Since the date 2012 is in the same time frame I would have to suppose that it is accurate. That certainly does not mean that I believe there is anything of significance to that date, just that the date is correct.

reply to post by no1elsebuttme

noebm.
This is the best post I've read. I understand that some people have responded about you using the word "lemmings", but I could'nt agree with you more. This is a interesting and entertaining site that I first joined to see if there was anything "real" I would read or see here that I wouldn't get to see anywhere else. I still have hope that I will. Unfortunately I read more from kids trying to make something out of nothing, people who obviously don't have a life outside ATS therefore they want to believe EVERYTHING written here, religous fanatics, or just plain kooks.

There are plenty of people here who post topics to create intelligent discussion, and some who post interesting pictures for opinions. I enjoy those. The others just make me laugh.

Thanks for your well thought out post

reply to post by no1elsebuttme

noebm.
This is the best post I've read. I understand that some people have responded about you using the word "lemmings", but I could'nt agree with you more. This is a interesting and entertaining site that I first joined to see if there was anything "real" I would read or see here that I wouldn't get to see anywhere else. I still have hope that I will. Unfortunately I read more from kids trying to make something out of nothing, people who obviously don't have a life outside ATS therefore they want to believe EVERYTHING written here, religous fanatics, or just plain kooks.

There are plenty of people here who post topics to create intelligent discussion, and some who post interesting pictures for opinions. I enjoy those. The others just make me laugh.

Thanks for your well thought out post

reply to post by atlasastro


Thank you for a thoughtful and well formulated response. Without breaking my response down in the same detailed way you did yours (I hope to no offense), I did generalize a fair bit, I agree. But perhaps my comments were not specifically driven towards many of those who use this site but more of an observation of our human population as a whole. We all generalize. We almost have to generalize. We would make very little headway in any discussion if we had to curtsy and bow, wink and nod to every exception to every rule.

Thank you again for your candid and diplomatic response to my zealous expression of frustration.

reply to post by stereologist



Hmmm... I see your point. I also know that light can speed up and slow down. So, if ancient peoples had visions of happenings in the future and they had visions of where the stars where at the time of those happenings and the stars are emitting light which is subject to change of speed on it's journey to our planet, it only stands to reason that they may have seen the stars of 2012 without them being the stars of 2012. But again, I'm only trying to show that for the most part, to have many of the widely accepted theories on the fore mentioned year come remotely true, an absolutely uncanny string of highly sensitive variables has to work together flawlessly. Although this universe is a fine tuned machine, if there's anything we DO know about it is that it hardly ever succeeds the first time.

Thanks for your reply

reply to post by no1elsebuttme


Light does not speed up and slow down in a vacuum. In space light speed does not change. It does not change regardless of what the observer is doing.

I should also point out that there are no "widely accepted theories" concerning 2012. There are no theories such as the term is used in science. There are unsubstantiated speculations that do not have agreement with scientific data. There are claims of planets, yet we don't see the planet or any affects on the solar system. There are claims about ancient prophecies, yet the claims are based on incorrect translations or outright hoaxes. It's a large list of claims, none with any backing.

reply to post by no1elsebuttme


No problem, and you are welcome.
Yes, I know we have a need to generalize. It actually raises an interesting point in relation to beliefs surrounding 2012.
Many people will generalize a system of belief so as to avoid having to investigate life or existence in greater detail.
This frees people up to operate in relation to "everyday' life.
Like you say, we would never get anywhere if we didn't make generalizations.

It can be catch 22 in a sense, I guess.

We need to deal with people in a specific and general context in life, and I guess that was what I was pointing out in my post.
In relation to specific beliefs, which are complex, generalizing does not do discussions any favours. Especially considering you are actually trying to encourage a debate on a public forum about specific beliefs.
But I do know where you are coming from though, trust me.

The topic of 2012 is interesting to me though, as much as some of the material concerning it makes me want to tear chunks of hair out.


Thank you for the reply, much appreciated.

reply to post by no1elsebuttme


listen to my words, "RISK" not fact, I'm not jumping to any wacko conclusions/

Meteorites and Solar Flares are known threats to earth, with history to back up the credibility of it's potential.

en.wikipedia.org...

factoidz.com...

Took me the best part of 20 seconds to find both of those links. Nothing special but it shows a potential threat.

Leading physist Michao Kaku has something to say regarding Solar Flares. Look into Solar Cyle 24 also

www.youtube.com...

Listen to what he has to say, he isn't one to make threats like this without the required evidence/data.

My response was really as simple as this; I'm not claiming to know anything that someone else cannot know without the required research. I'm simpy stating a potential thread to earth and the data showing increased solar activity also a potential threat to earth.

Im not saying Jesus is coming, i'm not saying Aliens are coming on their Spaceship planet, i'm not saying the Anti-Christ is on his way, I'm not saying it's the end of the world.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by no1elsebuttme

 

listen to my words, "RISK" not fact, I'm not jumping to any wacko conclusions

The "RISK" of solar flares and whatnot is a fact of everyday. You don't need a magical/mythical year for that. And don't give me some speculative science on the center of the galaxy creating all these disturbances.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by no1elsebuttme
[more

Took me the best part of 20 seconds to find both of those links. Nothing special but it shows a potential threat.

There in lies the problem. You aren't spending near enough time on the topic. If all you do is a Google search and hit the first three links you see, then you're hardly in a position to argue any topic in a thoughtful and mindful way at any level of detail and actually doing your understanding of said topic a great deal of harm by looking at the same popular garbage every other Joe is looking at think, "Yeah, now I understand". Try the library.....real books are the SHIZ. I'm sorry, I tried to be intellectually fair with you in my first response but your recent one insults me and my intelligence. The first two links you give me enlighten me as to how solar flares and asteroids work? Thanks, I had no idea. Not that the information was particularly wrong, but the first link was from Wikipedia. Really?! wiki? Really? Would you like my address? That way you can just come to my house and insult me in person.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by no1elsebuttme

 

.
Leading physist Michao Kaku has something to say regarding Solar Flares. Look into Solar Cyle 24 also.
Listen to what he has to say, he isn't one to make threats like this without the required evidence/data.

Fox News. Fox.......News. Come on pal, I don't want to get ad-hominid on you but your pushing me. This Dr. Michio Kaku who was being interviewed is the very same man who can over the phone, determine whether or not a device can or can not work, sight unseen. Is he God? Master of all knowledge? He repeatedly rejects successful experiments in the field of gauge transformation and negative mass electrons simply because he can't observe the negative mass electron. Pretty close minded for a "Theoretical Physicist". Interesting he does not use the same rejection skills on his own theory of an 11 dimension universe despite the fact that he can't see all 11 dimensions.
He is part of the sensationalistic problem and king at the capitalistic game. For all those who can not focus their attention long enough to grasp large concepts with real world applications, Dr. Kaku has no shortage of absurd pseudo-science to share. He pours his energy endlessly into all things unverified and speculative.
Science is starting with something you can measure and follow, then you find a mathematical statement for it, then you develop a theory that delineates that equation and can help predict other phenomena. Only then do you have real understanding. Science....trustworthy science is NOT developing a theory that may or may not ever be proven correct, going on public speaking tours, signing a deal with the Discovery Channel, getting on Fox News, and making grandiose claims about everything from electroweak symmetry breaking to solar flares. For those of us who operate our theories in the real world we seek more credible and fact founded models to build our theories off of. The LHC experiments this year will, if all goes well, bring attention to building theories on explainable, extrapolated predictions from, real phenomena. Precisely the converse of what Dimensional and string theorists do by producing mathematical models of Planck scale speculations and then use those models to produce uncheckable predictions. But as far as uncheckable predictions concerning solar flares in 2012 we will soon know if the SPECULATION is right, won't we? In the meantime, I'll get my science from someone other than the lime-light hungry Dr. Kaku. In the words of a friend of mine, "Michio Kaku is to physics what Kenny G is to jazz". I could go on and on regarding your source. But you like your sensationalism, don't you? You like all this nonsense "science".
Have you heard of Edward Witten or Steven Weinberg? You should look into their work. Might do you some good.

In the future if you would like to give me some more reading/viewing material I would appreciate something other than links who's information can be changed by anyone and a video site that is worse for airing good material then MTV.

Don't insinuate that I haven't done my research. Don't insult me.

reply to post by stereologist


The speed of light is not a constant and there are MANY MANY things in space that can interfere with it's speed.

I will try and put this politely but maybe step back and listen to what others have to say,it might help if you can accept that some other people know more than you.