Satellites, Planes? a bit puzzled.

Hello!

Here is my own "UFO" observation, made yesterday, while i was working in my yard, at home.
And when i say, UFO, i mean exactly the definition: something in the sky, which make me wonder a bit. Nothing alien, or nothing exotic, in fact i guess is something mundane...but i don't have enough information to fit the observation.
But the strangeness is coming from what is not, when trying to identify it...at least based on some information at hand.

The observation:

Time Friday 23 oct ~ 18:55 PM local time (Romania), or 15:55 GMT , it was already dark, sun was set for 30 minutes or so (i have to verify that), stars visible
Duration ~ 30 seconds or so
Direction about to S-E , about 20..25 degrees from the horizon, and about ~30 degree right from the bright planet Jupiter seen in this period.
Description: just exactly like the satellites (movement, brightness, speed), but, it were two objects, moving "in formation", just like ISS and the shuttle doing docking or separation maneuvers..two points of light close together and having the same trajectory and speed...maybe some of you saw or know about this ISS-shuttle tandem kind of observations.. The separation between them, maybe 1 degree or something....i didn't do the measurement while observing them, but only from memory just after realising that i should have measuring it....so, the observation happened when i looked casual to the sky, i saw these two objects, and because they were somehow low to the horizon, and near some building/trees, i easy understand they were in motion, going away from me. One of the "object" was brighter, more like (but not quite) ISS when seen low at the horizon, and the other a bit less bright. First in direction of the movement was the brighter object, and then followed by the other, but not exactly after it, but behind and a bit to the left. The sky was clear, Jupiter was very bright (hypnotic ) , and those two objects were enough bright to catch easily my attention, since i just accidentally looked at the sky, while finishing my work in my home-yard. Also, my father was with me, helping on my jobs, and i showed him those two objects. After 20 ..30 second or so, the objects gradually faded during the interval, beeing less brighter, already enough to not catch attention for somebody not looking exactly to them -- maybe like ~ 4magnitude star-- (i can't do a good job in estimating the star brightness levels, so, take it only as a gross estimate) and , because i was in hurry to finish the job, being already dark, i quit to follow further the objects, guessing that they further became dimmer and dimmer, and lose them also because the trees which shortly may have blocked the view.

Now...i'm already subscribed to www.calsky.com for a few months, and every day i receive predictions for the following day for the following events:

* Iridium flares - checked and none was at 23 oct 18:55 PM (when some iridium is predicted, and i have the oportunity to verify it, it always goes as predicted);
* ISS passes - checked and none was at 23 oct 18:55 PM (when some passes are predicted, and i have the oportunity to verify it, it always goes as predicted);
* other events like moon occultations, comets, meteor streams, sun/moon sattelite crossings etc, which don't fit for this observation.

So, i don't now what it was.

I can think at ISS and a companion module/shuttle (but why not predicted from calsky, as usual? )
I can think at about two other sattelites, doing more or less together a iridium flare, being in the same orientation, similar orbit or formation or just some coincidence, but not predicted by calsky - maybe not enough bright to the caksky's threshold to declare them iridium flare
I can think at two planes flying paralel (i already seen this a few times, but mostly at day), but i didn't saw any flashing or collored light (while, a few other times, i saw planes at night just as fixed white light, and after a while to detect the navigation flashing lights).
(seems i debunked myself ) )

To think at alien or secret experiments? it may have be i guess

Finnally, it was UFO (exactly what definitions means) something which attracted my curiosity and, after some checkings i remained or even became a bit puzzled.

I just don't wanted to let the observation to be lost in my memory only...or it is just an exercise to describe an unexpected observation with as many details as i can.

Maybe someone may know something supplementary to help further identify the "sattelite-like lights, but two in tandem" ... other shuttle missions, or something else...

Good observing keep looking up. We can speculate here, Does romania have anything you think they keep top secret? Probally do, If it wasn't direct ET and you know it wasnt a plane or a helecopter then im guessing Government aircraft they havn't said they got.

Have you used the usual Satellite and planet/star programs to see if you were seeing anything of this nature?

HEAVEN'S ABOVE

NASA - SKY WATCH

STELLARIUM - planetarium

Well written report, even if a little hard to read, but hey english is obviously not your main language :p

Hmm could be planes, you mention the sun had been down for 30 minutes but was their still some glow in the direction of the sun in anyway? Since high flying passenger planes can catch the sun light well after the sun is visibly set for an observer on the ground, although you mention S-E direction which would put it more than likely too far over to get that effect, if it was moving away from you and towards, over the horizon it would eventual fall within the earths shadow which might account for the fading out ie they gradually stop reflecting sunlight. Although I wouldnt think commercial planes or airliners would stick that close to each other and follow the same trajectories like that (following in behind each other on a similar path yes, but not side by side)

Definitely get Stellarium and check if it was something along those lines, would at least cut out a chunk of what they might not be. For us here at the moment in my country Venus and Mars are sort of doing a dance like you describe same trajectory side by side close to sun set.

Other than that, id say not sure personally.

Edit:- Hmm fired up Stellarium, not sure im using it right since if i jump to a Romanian city and punch in your date and time it shows the sun was still up at 18:55 but if I stick 15:55 into it it shows the sun is set, maybe the Sun works in reverse up their in the northern hemisphere :p... I guess its works it out based on the local PC's time or something to that effect. Opps just realized its probably showing relative time based on my location, so id have to stick in 3:55 for it to work here... sheesh.

Edit 2:- Nope from what i can tell with Stellarium you didnt have any visible planets but Jupiter up where you are at that time... I jumped around a bunch of Romanian locations to make sure.

Could it be this?

www.satobs.org...
One of the interesting sights in the night sky are the Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS) satellite formations, each having two or three satellites in close proximity to one another. Normally these satellites are relatively dim to the unaided eye, but on occasion they brighten sufficiently to be easily seen in a dark sky.
www.eclipsetours.com...
There are some spacecraft for which no formally published orbital elements exist. Instead, amateur satellite watchers have acquired and tracked these objects and publish unofficial information. The NOSS satellite groups are part of traveling trios that are associated with an apparent surveillance system.

reply to post by depthoffield


They are bokeh discs

or as I prefer to call them 'critters'



Sorry couldn't resist

reply to post by depthoffield


Depthoffield me ol' mate!

Hey.....

As per Pauligirl (above):

Is this helpful.....US Navy NOSS triplet satellites.....



Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

reply to post by depthoffield


Depthoffield i have to take my hat of to you sir.

If i recall you gave some very challenging debate over the past few years as regard to some ufo topics esp concerning possible nasa ufo's or things hanging around in orbit etc so fair play for posting your experience

I myself have seen paired objects in the heavens. I only noticed them because two uptil then stars diagonally opposed to each other suddenly, simutaniously lit up way way brighter than venus or jupiter. They were stationary and within 5 secs they both simultaneously dimmed.

Then within a few seconds the lower one started moving slowly towards the other until very close. It briefly stopped for 10 secs or so then they both moved off together maintaining distance until out of sight maybe 30 secs- 1 min.

I was nt alone as my mate witnessed it also and we were actually out skywatching at the time so it was an incredibly rewarding event.

This could mean one of two things.... They were definately craft and in space/orbit etc and the simultaneous lighting up etc was very relevent. Either some secret space program which has multiple craft of super secret tech which is rumoured to exsist or the real deal alien craft.

no space missions were happening officially as we checked, this was july/aug 2009.

We have also witnessed satellite type lights stop, turn and also other thought to be stars suddenly fly off.

I dont believe all shooting stars are as such - far from it but thats just my opinion.

Back when about ten 1976/77 i witnessd a very large silver cigar shaped craft slowly cross the sky ahead but it was very close 100-200m.

This was 11pm ish & pitch black dark in the countryside.

I was with aunt,uncle & sisters driving home & i spotted it underneath the rearview mirror ahead. It had no lights, just a dullish grey/silver glow. Over the first few seconds of wondering what is was i watched it come down into the field up ahead to the left. When we got level a few seconds later there was nothing - empty field. My aunt saw exactly the same as me but no-one else, not even my uncle who was driving.

I always say now to folks if they want to see genuine ufo's aka craft in orbit that shouldnt exsist then just look up.

Its all there to see if your patient, look for satallites for an hour or so regularly and you will see a host of oddities that stand out from satallites ie - they dont stop, turn, fly off, pair up blahdybla.

DOF - you do realise this will cause you terrible neck & back aches over the years with all the scanning the skies ull be doing

Anyhow welcome aboard matey - cm

Edit to add that i did post about this when it happened and it seems that my mate & i were the only ones to see it. However i did get a very intresting response from jimoberg that pretty much acknowledment which was very suprising as he normally has an explanation for all.

Originally posted by BigfootNZ
...
Edit:- Hmm fired up Stellarium, not sure im using it right since if i jump to a Romanian city and punch in your date and time it shows the sun was still up at 18:55 but if I stick 15:55 into it it shows the sun is set, maybe the Sun works in reverse up their in the northern hemisphere :p... I guess its works it out based on the local PC's time or something to that effect. Opps just realized its probably showing relative time based on my location, so id have to stick in 3:55 for it to work here... sheesh.

Edit 2:- Nope from what i can tell with Stellarium you didnt have any visible planets but Jupiter up where you are at that time... I jumped around a bunch of Romanian locations to make sure.

Timezones are not Stellariums strong point.. I keep buggin them to set up a properly managed calendar/time zone system to allow one to hop around and not have to muck around with time zones.. C'mon Stellarium - other programs can do this..

Essentially Stellarium works on your computer's time zone, so if you 'relocate' while in the program, is still thinks it is the same time and zone. Dumb, imo. You can work it out in your head, or simply use the timespeed up functions and take a wild stab by seeing when the sun sets or rises and then working backards or forwards..

Anyway, if they were moving like planes/sats, Stellarium isn't the answer. Certainly sounds like the NOSS sats:
www.satobs.org...

And just after sunset/before sunrise is the very best time (the only time, really) to see satellites...

In which case, heaven's above!!

reply to post by depthoffield

Hiya Depth, I think you could have been seeing the German TerraSAR-X and TanDEM-X radar satellites. Just this week, they've drawn within 350 metres of each other in a synchronised orbit.

Friedrichshafen, 15 October 2010 - The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) and the space company Astrium have recently taken an important step forward in their mission to create a three-dimensional map of the world. On 14 October 2010, the radar satellite TanDEM‑X moved into close formation with its ‘twin’, TerraSAR‑X. Before this, the two satellites were orbiting 20 kilometres apart – a flight time of almost three seconds. Now, there are only 350 metres separating the pair, which means their antennas are able to acquire radar images of the same area simultaneously. The objective of the mission is to create a high-precision, three-dimensional digital elevation model of Earth’s land surface. The project needs the satellites to operate in parallel for a period of three years. The transition to close formation flight marks the beginning of the final preparatory stage of the TanDEM‑X mission. The routine operations phase is due to start in early January next year.

Radar Satellites TerraSAR X and TanDEM X are flying in close formation

The ISS and the space shuttle ( when docked) do not appear as two tandem points of light but are one large bright point of light . Here is a video I took of the ISS with shuttle docked ( I am pretty sure it was at the time) from last year. Taken with a sony digital camcorder with optical 40X zoom.

well, thanks everybody for the input and responses.
Since my time to participate is almost non-existent, i apologise for the effects of this.

some answers:

Originally posted by thecinic
Does romania have anything you think they keep top secret?

no, i don't think Romania has any secret crafts or experiments...we have a poor economy and many things to accomplish if we had money.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Have you used the usual Satellite and planet/star programs to see if you were seeing anything of this nature?

HEAVEN'S ABOVE

NASA - SKY WATCH

STELLARIUM - planetarium

edit on October 23rd 2010 by

Stellarium is for celestial natural objects, while my observation is about something acting like satellites.

Heavens Above i checked after you reminded me, thanks, and, most of the things are predictions for future... but i need "past" not "future" . But I found one about "48 hours previous iridium flares", but not any recordings related to my sighting.

As for NASA Sky Watch, thank you, about an year or so i used a bit, and then forgot about it. Somehow is becoming annoying for me because i can't manage to get data for my 18:55 time, but only about 19:05 and after that.... and somehow it didn't save some settings, and ...oh, the calculations last 8 minutes or so, too much to check various settings ...but i have to play more with it.

Anyway, for someone with more time and patience, here is my coordinates of the location:

Braila, Romania, 45.27 lat N and 27.96 E , time zone 2 hours after GMT, but now 3 hours after GMT because of the daylight saving time rule.
And the observation:
Time: Friday 23 oct ~ 18:55 PM local time (Romania), or 15:55 GMT , it was already dark, sun was set for 30 minutes or so (i have to verify that), stars visible
Duration ~ 30 seconds or so
Direction about to S-E , about 20..25 degrees from the horizon, and about ~30 degree right from the bright planet Jupiter seen in this period, going away from me, toward S-E.

Originally posted by BigfootNZ
Well written report, even if a little hard to read, but hey english is obviously not your main language :p

Hmm could be planes, you mention the sun had been down for 30 minutes but was their still some glow in the direction of the sun in anyway?

Yes, apologise, my english is not so readable, but it is mine

Yes, I could think at distant planes being still sunlit and then fading into the earth shadow, a valid explanation, but i still quess it was already too dark, the S-E direction is about oposite to the setting sun, and why two of them so close together..

Originally posted by zorgon
Sorry couldn't resist

Hi! is better to unleash the pressure

Originally posted by cropmuncher
DOF - you do realise this will cause you terrible neck & back aches over the years with all the scanning the skies ull be doing

well, also headaches, because things that make you wonder. .

Originally posted by Pauligirl
Could it be this?

www.satobs.org...
One of the interesting sights in the night sky are the Naval Ocean Surveillance System (NOSS) satellite formations, each having two or three satellites in close proximity to one another.

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
Is this helpful.....US Navy NOSS triplet satellites.....

Originally posted by CHRLZ
Anyway, if they were moving like planes/sats, Stellarium isn't the answer. Certainly sounds like the NOSS sats:
www.satobs.org...

Hi, all of you, yes, NOSS triplet or dublet satelittes, in some sort of iridium flare event, can be a good explanation of what i saw...since i never seen them myself....and of course calsky, heavens-above or other similar tools can't publish this data.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Hiya Depth, I think you could have been seeing the German TerraSAR-X and TanDEM-X radar satellites. Just this week, they've drawn within 350 metres of each other in a synchronised orbit.

Friedrichshafen, 15 October 2010 - The German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) and the space company Astrium have recently taken an important step forward in their mission to create a three-dimensional map of the world. On 14 October 2010, the radar satellite TanDEM‑X moved into close formation with its ‘twin’, TerraSAR‑X. Before this, the two satellites were orbiting 20 kilometres apart – a flight time of almost three seconds. Now, there are only 350 metres separating the pair, which means their antennas are able to acquire radar images of the same area simultaneously. The objective of the mission is to create a high-precision, three-dimensional digital elevation model of Earth’s land surface. The project needs the satellites to operate in parallel for a period of three years. The transition to close formation flight marks the beginning of the final preparatory stage of the TanDEM‑X mission. The routine operations phase is due to start in early January next year.

Radar Satellites TerraSAR X and TanDEM X are flying in close formation

I don't think i was so lucky, especially because i don't have time to spend to see the sky...but is another posible explanation, thanks.

Just for giving a sense to the things:
If my objects have a 1 degree angular separation (very subjective), and they were, let's say, at 1000 km distance away from me (taking in consideration the low angle - ~20 degree above horizon), then a simple formula of tan(angle) could give an idea:

Separation = distance x tan (1 degree)

then separation is about 17 km . Hmm.

On the other hand, 350 meters separation, means an angle of 1.2 arcminutes, almost equal to human-eye limit (~ 1arcminut)..therefore, if those twin german satellites already have 350 meters separation, i doubt i could clearly seen them so easy as two different relative distant objects.


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