New EU Nations Bribed

Originally posted by UK Wizard
what fascist threat to europe

there isn't one

my main point on the EU is i don't want our country to be ran from Brussels, how do they know what life is like in my part of England.
The major problem with EU intergration is that we have very different cultures, eg. meaning one policy in Denmark may be foolish to put into practice in Sweden.

I think the EU could work properly in maybe 30 years but not yet, there is too much change too quick, the people in charge of the EU want total change as fast as possible, we just arn't ready for it.

What's everyone opinion on the EU fisheries policy, now nobody can defend that can they

I my self don't want membership of the EU but would rather have a more international alliance, like the UN but more active in the areas that the EU deals with

i want nothing less than complete independance.

the UK can't be independent forever , i do think it's too soon and the intergration is being done all wrong, it should be slower and done on a larger scale, the western countries (UK, US, France, Germany, Norway etc..)first, then others to follow

I understand both the intergration and independence points of view and believe a third way of intergration should be found

i've just read what you said in another thread, and i'm being to think your a little fascist your self rustiswordz

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

Originally posted by rustiswordz
im not interested in evidence, i know all i need to.

Yeah, I think that says it all. Whatever you do, Rusty, don't let the facts get in the way of good rant, will you?

liberals like you have my country by the balls and you love it dont you, absolutely love every miniute as you tear my country a new ar*ehole.

You know what? I do love it Rusty, I love every damn minute. I love the fact that, after all these years, your kind of politics is on the way out. I love that the dinosaurs of previous decades have been put out of their misery, and we're on the path to embracing intelligent argument as the means of resolving our problems. Most of all, I love that education and reason can defeat ignorance and petty fear every damn time.

And guess what, mate? It isn't your country. It's ours.




You make a good point about the timing, UK Wizard, and I understand people's reticence to "rush into" full integration. That's why I advocate a steady, "eyes wide open" approach, questioning and reforming at every point, but doing so in a good-natured, inclusive fashion.

The "fascist threat" I referred to was the rise of the right-wing parties all across Europe - the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, we've all been having more and more problems with neo-nazi thugs lately. I was merely pointing out to Good Old Rusty that it's the skinhead fascists who are pursuing an agenda of national seperatism - just like he is.

IRONY ALERT

To be honest, I don't know enough about the fishing policies to argue the point with you. I do know that living here in the north of Scotland, I can see the effects of a dying fishing industry every time I drive along the coast. Let me look into it, and we'll debate it another time.

The woman on the Bull, Im guessing, sounds like the Greek Myth of Europa, whom the continent of Europe is named after. The bull was the god Zeus, who carried her away. But I do believe the bible has a refence to such an image.

Anyway, for quick refrence, unemplyment is higher in many EU countires than it is in the US. If you want a better, stronger economy, youre gonna have to make some SERIOUS economic policy reforms, including getting away from the social welfare state model, if you wanna grow.

A few years ago, I had a client from the UK and I 'saw' that the Brits should keep their currency and if they did, they'd have a strong economy and would enter kind of a 'golden age' of culture (high arts, music, theater, etc.)

It seems to me that this ever widening - all encompassing - EU is swallowing every country whole...

Now.. who *isn't* part of the EU in that part of the globe? Anyone left?

I've done a little bit of research on the fisheries policies that the EU has and i'm disgusted

Link to site detailing EU stupidity on fish stocks:
news.bbc.co.uk...
and another one
www.greenconsumerguide.com...
and another
news.bbc.co.uk...

looks to me that the EU just wants to fish all the fish that are left,
the british fishing fleet is being cut as there is a limit on the amount of fish they can fish
but other european countries maintain their fishing fleet size by fishing in British waters, (we can't stop them because of EU laws)

this is the fishermen's point of view:
www.sovereignty.org.uk...

EU Law:
''British fishing grounds are due to become a 'common resource' for fleets from all over Europe under the existing policy."


The EU really does have something against the UK

[edit on 29-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

Okay, I've taken some time to study the information you linked to, and conduct a bit of research myself, and I've come to this startling conclusion.

I don't really know what your problem is, UK Wizard.

For those of you who haven't been following this fascinating issue - and I can't say I blame you - here are some of the interesting minnows I dredged up.

See? A fishing metaphor! Ha!

Fish stocks in the seas around Europe are dwindling fast. Because of overfishing, there are fewer fish than at any point in recorded history. Some people in the EU decided in the 1970s that, so that our children can enjoy a seafood platter when they are adults, stocks should be conserved and limits imposed on how much fish a given boat is allowed to catch. Straightforward enough, you might think, except that the EU has, rather than adopting a simple, transparent approach, created an incredibly complex set of rules knows as the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP). All the information you could possibly want on the CFP can be found here.

So there have, in the past, been some conflicts about who can fish where, notably between the fishing fleets of the UK and Spain. Meanwhile, the amount of fish that a boat can catch in a given period is being reduced every now and then, to further protect the poor fishies while letting the fishing industry down gently. Now, it turns out, the EU hasn't been strict enough, and several species of fish are facing extinction in European waters. The solution should be fairly easy to see - tighten the restrictions!

But that, of course, isn't the problem. If rational debate and logic carried the day, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

If only it were that simple.

The following quote comes from the last link you supplied, UK Wizard, to a statement by Mr. Tom Hay - click here.

British fishermen have since 1983 been ordered by this unelected bureaucracy to dump hundreds of thousands of tons of prime quality fish all dead back into the sea in the name of conservation, to pollute the fishing grounds in almost every area where our vessels operate.

That is a transgression against the highest moral law, since thousands, yes, millions die of starvation only a few hours flight from Britain's shores.

That's right, ladies and gentlemen, you did read that correctly. No, I know what you mean, but go back and read it again. It really is as crass and ridiculous as you thought it was.

Let me get this straight. British fishermen are being ordered to return some catches to the sea - not all dead, by any means, despite what he says - in the name of conservation, while some people are starving somewhere in the world? Is Mr. Hay suggesting that, if he were allowed to keep the excess fish which he shouldn't have bloody well caught in the first place, he'll go out to the Sudan and make everyone a tuna mayonnaise sandwich? I doubt it!

This is exactly the type of hysterical nonsense that gives the pro-fishing lobby a bad name, and leads to the public perception that our fishermen are being screwed. Mr. Hay doesn't have a problem with the EUs management of the seas, he has a problem with not being allowed to go out and catch every damn fish between Aberdeen and Norway!

So, in conclusion, UK Wizard, I'm not really with you on this one. Yes, there are legalistic loopholes, and yes, there has been some decision-making which could have been more transparent. I can see, too, how it seems that the UK has got a rough deal out of EU legislation on fishing, but, trying to be objective, I can see their point. Fish stocks must be conserved if there are to be any left in the future - and while the implementation of some of the legislation may be a bit questionable, it doesn't change the fact that fishing industry throughout Europe is too damn greedy and needs to be cut back.

And if the problem is one of communication and transparency, surely that's another argument in favour of closer ties with the EU. If we're on the inside, we can examine and influence the whole process, and ensure that, in the future, British fishermen aren't penalised because our politicians aren't in Brussels arguing in their defence.

hmmm..

good research strange lands

yes i agree that fishing levels ''need'' to be reduced or the chip shop industry will be put out of business in the future (sorry little joke there)

too my knowledge Spainish fishing vessels are registering their vessels in England so they can use British fishing water, this is why i'm so worked up.

Yes there needs to be a reduction in our fishing fleet, but our fish stocks continue to go down because other nations (mainly spain) use our waters for fishing even though our fleet is decreasing in size all the time

www.planetark.org...
(and the irish arn't happy either)

www.neilparishmep.org.uk...
(yes i know it's conservative, but i think it can be trusted )


the EU is going to other continents for the european fish stocks now
(yes we are heavily reducing the fishing stocks of poor 3rd world countries)

news.bbc.co.uk...
(the deal for fishing rights went ahead)


[edit on 30-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

[edit on 30-6-2004 by UK Wizard]

I thought the whole EU was set up as only a trading agreement.
To have trade agreement would be fine but other than that why do we need Europe ???? Answers on a postcard.

Still Happy if amused

Originally posted by colec156
I thought the whole EU was set up as only a trading agreement.
To have trade agreement would be fine but other than that why do we need Europe ????

Europe has given birth to some powerful empires throughout history and the fat cats in the EU want to create a United Europe that can become the worlds next Super power. The EU was just a trade agreement then a group throught it would be a good idea to turn the EU into a international force.

I take it when you say "we" you mean America?? if that is so, Some members in congress are worried about the EU future plans, i don't blame them either, the EU wants power. I also remember reading that America would be become very worried if the EU creates its on Miltary force.

The problem is, UK Wizard, that according to the EU, the waters around Europe to do not belong to any single country, they belong to everyone. So legally, there's nothing to stop Spanish fishermen from coming into "our" fishing zones and scooping up a few tons of fish, but there's nothing stopping our fishermen from doing the same thing.

As for Spanish boats contravening the fishing policies, you should really be angry at Spain, not the EU, because, while the EU sets the policies, individual member countries are responsible for enforcing said laws. If Spanish fishermen are breaking the rules, it's because the Spanish government isn't stopping them.

I agree it's not a great a situation - the death of an industry is never fun - but it's not as black and white as it seems.

And thanks for the BBC link - I do not approve of the EUs actions regarding fishing off the coast of Africa. Is it such a terrible thing if our fishing industry is reduced to a manageable scale? Yes, some people would be out of work, but with proper retraining and support, they can be re-employed elsewhere, and yes, the cost of fish at your local supermarket will go up, but that's no bad thing either.

I think it's time for a more rational discussion of the issues.

i'm not angry at the EU for once, , it is doing the right thing, but it's spain who need to be sorted out , maybe they should have their international fishing rights revoked (fishing in other nations waters) for two years or something


i don't like fish any way so increasing the price of fish wouldn't bother me