Obama Care questions.

Ok I understand that by default, me not being a progressive left wing liberal I do not possess the intelligence necessary to understand the following:

Our glorious Commander In Chief Stated that health care premiums would go down 14%-20% with his new bill. He states this vehemently to Sen. Alexander as displayed in the video below.




Now currently that is not the case for premiums, I know that personally my premiums have increase close to 20% plus my out of pocket costs for office visits, prescriptions, and emergency room visits has gone up by a large amount. Below is from CNN:

Chances are you'll learn that your 2011 health insurance tab will be sharply higher, as companies continue to shift the burden of rising costs onto their workers. Employees' share of premiums for a family plan is up an average 14%, to $3,997, vs. just a 3% rise in the total bill, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

And it's not just premiums that are spiraling higher. You're also likely to be hit with higher deductibles and out-of-pocket maximums as well as bigger bills for doctor's visits and drugs.

Link

Maybe I am just too Neo-Con Right Wing stupid to understand this.

Probably because "Obamacare" hasn't actually kicked in yet.

It's funny, insurance companies, who currently aren't under the rules of "Obamacare" raise their premiums, and people blame this law for it. To me that seems like reality fail. The only thing right now that has kicked in is that insurance companies can no longer drop you for having a pre existing condition. But hey, don't actually read the bill, just blame it for things that aren't it's fault. Don't blame the insurance companies for raising their rates, blame something completely unrelated, that makes perfect sense.

reply to post by Doom and Gloom


I find it astounding that people would believe that costs would not go up if you added a million plus more people on it. California is doing horribly because you have more money going out coming in so why would it be a surprise that when our premiums go up? Funny thing is you may not realize it until you actually see a doctor and have some issues that need attention..that's when the fun starts...oh happy days

reply to post by Doom and Gloom


healthcare costs will be lowered-lie rates have increased on millions of americans.
americans of age 26 will continued to be on mommy and daddys insurance policies well as a person who has worked since i was 16 i had insurance at the time so the logic of taking more money out of mom and dads wallets make no sense to me.

fact some elements of obama care ie the care act are already in action.
fact the majority of people who are already paying insurance dont need it until much later
fact you can go 20 or 30 years without ever needing healthcare and yet there you are paying for the people who do need it which means there are people getting more out of the system than those other people.
fact when it comes to prexisting condtions which means they could be in fact life threatening but wait for it.
millions of americans that who become disabled by said conditions are automatically enrolled in medicare and medicaid.

obama is a liar obama care had nothing to do with helping people it was about POWER and your vote.

reply to post by whatukno


The insurance companies are raising their rates in anticipation and in response to the coming implementation of Obamacare. They're rational actors, they're going to prepare for this disaster before it happens. To say that these changes aren't in response to Obamacare just because the law hasn't been fully implemented completely ignores how insurance and insurance companies work and prepare for the future.

reply to post by whatukno


A number of policies stipulated within the three thousand pages of that bill have taken effect. For those that haven't, administrative costs are going through the roof as Congress passes laws that counteract each other and tax related issues:

articles.latimes.com...

Does anybody read this stuff before they pass it?

Really? If I worked for the IRS, I'd go postal after this stipulation took effect. You couldn't hire enough people to handle such a hideous surge of paperwork.

How can any market so highly regulated by the government be expected to not raise prices when "the plan" changes every four months?

Not to mention that any sane company would start 'gearing up' for the coming storm of 'obamacare.' You can't force a company to cover demographics that would typically be completely unsustainable in a competitive environment. Not and expect prices to do anything but go up.

Obviously it's still the insurance companies themselves that are to blame for raising their rates and not Obamacare. Just like when gas prices go up because a hurricane goes into the gulf of mexico is a lame excuse, this is a lame excuse too.

It's not the hurricane's fault that gas prices go up, it's oil companies being jackasses. Same thing here, insurance companies are the ones being jackasses, and instead of calling the insurance companies out for the crap they are pulling people are blaming Obamacare for it, when Obamacare hasn't fully kicked in yet.

reply to post by whatukno


Couldn't have anything to do with some 80% of the Nation's refineries being in the gulf, and the possibility of those being rendered inoperable by the storms, now could it?

Likewise - as you just said, insurance companies are no longer allowed to drop people for fraudulent enrollment and have restrictions placed on the types of insurance they can offer. They have to pay their bills (which are the medical expenses of its members plus administrative costs) - the government just said their bills are going to go up and they can't charge higher-risk groups proportionately more. That's going to displace the costs to you.

This is really not a complex issue. You don't just tell a company: "Hey, you're going to charge your customers less." They can't pull money out of their rectum. They have to get money/revenue from their customers. If someone else isn't having to pay as much, you're having to pay more. The only exception is when operating costs and material/service costs go down. Seeing as no highly regulated market sees anything other than cost inflation - healthcare costs are going to do nothing but inflate.

reply to post by Aim64C

Couldn't have anything to do with some 80% of the Nation's refineries being in the gulf, and the possibility of those being rendered inoperable by the storms, now could it?

But would that be your fault as the consumer? Why is it your problem?

Likewise - as you just said, insurance companies are no longer allowed to drop people for fraudulent enrollment and have restrictions placed on the types of insurance they can offer. They have to pay their bills (which are the medical expenses of its members plus administrative costs) - the government just said their bills are going to go up and they can't charge higher-risk groups proportionately more. That's going to displace the costs to you.

Still not the consumer's problem. Why people don't place the blame where the blame is ACTUALLY due is beyond me.

This is really not a complex issue. You don't just tell a company: "Hey, you're going to charge your customers less." They can't pull money out of their rectum. They have to get money/revenue from their customers. If someone else isn't having to pay as much, you're having to pay more. The only exception is when operating costs and material/service costs go down. Seeing as no highly regulated market sees anything other than cost inflation - healthcare costs are going to do nothing but inflate.

And still, not Obamacare's problem, nor should it be the consumer's problem. It's the Insurance companies problem. If a company can't provide a product at a reasonable price maybe they shouldn't be in business to begin with.

Maybe instead of protecting the people that are screwing you, maybe, just maybe, you should see where the problem really exists, instead of blaming the blame where it doesn't deserve to be.

It's not obamacare's fault that insurance companies are raising their rates, it's the insurance companies fault. Why should YOU have to pay more for the same product?

reply to post by whatukno

But would that be your fault as the consumer? Why is it your problem?

It's called supply and demand. These companies are being faced with several things. First - Americans, despite their general failure at geography, know that gasoline is refined along the gulf coast. When a hurricane threatens the gulf coast, you see people lining up at gas stations all across the country.

While I'm sure there is an amount of price-gouging that occurs in those situations, these companies now have a resource that is facing a huge surge in demand while facing the threat of reduced supply. They are also looking at the potential need to repair their refining facilities as well as pursue alternate shipping methods to supply those refineries with oil (after local ports are fouled from the hurricane).

A raise in price is the only natural response.

What does it have to do with me, the consumer? Everything. I want gas when everyone else does and when there's a perceived lack of it. It's become a premium resource that will fetch a premium price.

It's much like how the price of food and seed-stock goes through the roof when the economy takes a down-turn. People fear that the days of plenty are coming to an end and we'll have to survive off of what we can plant in the ground around us. There's a limited supply of seeds, and us survivalists are not about to let someone take the last damned seed - we'll bid ferociously on that thing. Then sit in our fall-out shelter with our seeds and descend into schizophrenia, ending up crazed 'zombies' surviving on the flesh of the 'unprepared.'

Still not the consumer's problem. Why people don't place the blame where the blame is ACTUALLY due is beyond me.

Yes, it is the consumer's problem. When you sign a contract with an insurance company, you agree to pay dues to the insurance company, and in return, they will pay some or all of your medical expenses. Since the insurance company cannot print money, they must be paid as much or more money than they pay out. Since medical bills are often unforseen, it makes this particular business difficult to predict one's operational costs.

In either case - when the insurance company is forced to pay out more, or is limited in how much they can charge certain demographics - they must collect the difference from other customers.

Insurance is a socialist concept. It is akin to a workers' union. It is also why hospitals charge insurance companies differently from the uninsured. Insurance companies tell hospitals what they are willing to pay for a service (more or less) - and the hospital is then forced to either accept that price, or not do business with members of those insurance companies.

In a sense - those insurance companies are your front-line defense against bloated healthcare costs. That is part of the service you are paying for.

If the costs to provide that service increase because the government says that's how it has to be - then they have to raise their prices for the service if they want to stay in business - that or change the terms of their service so dramatically as to fall outside of the government regulated policies (such as many insurance companies dropping child-only insurance policies because of the impracticality of servicing them).

And still, not Obamacare's problem, nor should it be the consumer's problem. It's the Insurance companies problem. If a company can't provide a product at a reasonable price maybe they shouldn't be in business to begin with.

If the government comes in and says: "Burger King... $5.95 is too much for that combo meal. You're going to have to provide it for $2.50" - how is it NOT the problem of the government? The government mandates ... what $7.50 minimum wage - around that? They also tax your net worth (and those taxes can exceed your income, strangely enough), your income, your transactions, your utilities, mandate you provide health insurance, etc.

You can't mandate a business pay for things, then implement mandatory (and arbitrary) caps on the costs of their products/services. It would be like forcing you to pay on a $1M condo and capping your annual income at $45K while mandating you provide your family with internet, cable/satellite, and $50/week allowances for your 5 kids.

It's completely impractical. And, yes, it is 'obamacare's problem'.

Maybe instead of protecting the people that are screwing you, maybe, just maybe, you should see where the problem really exists, instead of blaming the blame where it doesn't deserve to be.

You presume to know something I do not? You presume to have analyzed this deeper than me?

That's cute.

The problem is not with health insurance companies. The problem is with healthcare providers and the complete lack of competition within that environment due to abuse of government regulatory policies.

Here's some reading for you (I'll take some excerpts where appropriate):

thomsonreuters.com...

"That's the point of this report - to identify areas in the healthcare system that can generate game-changing savings," Kelley said.

Here are some of the study's key findings:

* Unnecessary Care (40% of healthcare waste): Unwarranted treatment, such as the over-use of antibiotics and the use of diagnostic lab tests to protect against malpractice exposure, accounts for $250 billion to $325 billion in annual healthcare spending.
* Fraud (19% of healthcare waste): Healthcare fraud costs $125 billion to $175 billion each year, manifesting itself in everything from fraudulent Medicare claims to kickbacks for referrals for unnecessary services.
* Administrative Inefficiency (17% of healthcare waste): The large volume of redundant paperwork in the U.S healthcare system accounts for $100 billion to $150 billion in spending annually.
* Healthcare Provider Errors (12% of healthcare waste): Medical mistakes account for $75 billion to $100 billion in unnecessary spending each year.
* Preventable Conditions (6% of healthcare waste): Approximately $25 billion to $50 billion is spent annually on hospitalizations to address conditions such as uncontrolled diabetes, which are much less costly to treat when individuals receive timely access to outpatient care.
* Lack of Care Coordination (6% of healthcare waste): Inefficient communication between providers, including lack of access to medical records when specialists intervene, leads to duplication of tests and inappropriate treatments that cost $25 billion to $50 billion annually.

money.cnn.com...

insight.milliman.com.../transformi ng-healthcare-identifying-failures-insight05-01-09.php

- that is an important one, I will pull out a few excerpts - but it brings up many valid points that I will not be covering for the sake of brevity.

Access to healthcare coverage obviously could be improved by finding ways to fund coverage for those who are without it and to provide assurance that others won’t lose coverage due to events outside their control. That is easy to say, but challenging to achieve in ways that are sustainable and responsible financially. Simply spending more through subsidies and/or mandates, without altering other fundamental dynamics within the healthcare system, would rapidly accelerate cost levels while rendering healthcare even less affordable and further increasing the financial strain.
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One way to reduce costs is through strict, centralized budget controls—thereby fixing supply and effectively producing mandated prioritization and rationing of care. Another way is to identify and substantially reduce the inefficiency and waste that is embedded within the system. Improvement in efficiency and elimination of waste are much more acceptable and enduring strategies within a U.S. context than budget controls and rationing.
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By comparison, the more than 25% potential reduction in healthcare-system inefficiency and waste equates to approximately $600 billion. If the system were made substantially more efficient—achieving, for example, even one-third of this total potential savings—resources sufficient to provide coverage for the uninsured could be available without increasing the current level of overall spending on healthcare. Obviously, the important issues of how to structure such funding for coverage of the uninsured must be addressed. However, this serves to illustrate the magnitude of the inefficiency involved and as an example of an alternative use to which such savings could be designated.

How could things get so wasteful?

Well, in normal businesses, another business offering the same product/service would spring up (or slide over from a parallel market) and undercut the prices to gain better market share. How could they afford this? By doing things more efficiently.

The medical field is a strange one in a free market system to begin with - the demand for a medical service when it arises is often a very strong one to the individual - relief from pain or the treatment of an injury is of far greater priority than saving $50. It isn't helped when doctors have the sword of damocles suspended over their heads as they operate on 36-hour long shifts. Governments refuse to increase the number of licensed practitioners despite rapidly inflating demand. Then we like to persecute doctors for mistakes through malpractice claims.

The federal government also regulates the production and sale of prescription medications within the U.S. It can be made far cheaper here, and in other countries, but due to the intricacies of the legislation surrounding all of it, we are effectively forced to pay inflated prices for medication (God forbid we stick anything in our mouths that isn't certified by the FDA).

It's a boxed-in economy. I don't have any studies on hand to back it up - but I would imagine you will find the cost of healthcare to be linked very closely to the cost of education. Doctors spend a significant portion of their lives in school and being indebted to every institution on the continent. A doctor's minimum industry fee is going to be highly related to the cost of his/her loans and the price of malpractice insurance. They obviously cannot work for less than their loans cost (and that means you have to pay for their education).

It's not obamacare's fault that insurance companies are raising their rates, it's the insurance companies fault. Why should YOU have to pay more for the same product?

There are several reasons. The first is that the dollar is now more plentiful than it used to be. Since everyone is now being paid a minimum of $7.50 an hour - there are at least a bare minimum of 2 extra dollars floating around on the market for every man-hour of labor by comparison to four years ago. To further add to this interesting issue is the fact that the overall GDP (an approximation of total products/services produced) has, if anything, declined since four years ago.

Thus, more dollars floating around with fewer things being produced means that it takes more dollars to buy the same thing.

Remember when gasoline was $0.89 a gallon? I do. I'm only 22 years old and remember my mother complaining about how ridiculous gas prices were getting. I was still working at my first job when gas rocketed over $3.50 per gallon.

Compare inflation of gas prices with the inflation of the housing markets, increase in minimum wage, and the inflation of healthcare spending. You'll find a fairly consistent correlation that pretty much indicates we have been allowing a number of unsustainable programs to go unchecked for a long, long time. And it all tracks back to the government trying to do things it has no business doing.

Originally posted by chrismarco
reply to post by Doom and Gloom

 

I find it astounding that people would believe that costs would not go up if you added a million plus more people on it.

How would costs go up if the number of paying customers increases? That lowers costs.

California is doing horribly because you have more money going out coming in so why would it be a surprise that when our premiums go up?

What does that have to do with health care?

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by whatukno

 

The insurance companies are raising their rates in anticipation and in response to the coming implementation of Obamacare. They're rational actors, they're going to prepare for this disaster before it happens. To say that these changes aren't in response to Obamacare just because the law hasn't been fully implemented completely ignores how insurance and insurance companies work and prepare for the future.

No, the costs are rising because that is what the insurance companies are choosing to do. Blaming a health care bill that doesnt come into effect (if at all) for years seems ridiculous.