Anyone care to answer this?

Nothing happens overnight. Billions of years of trial and error has become the world we know now. While I'll bite that humans may have been the pet project of some alien race, making us hybrids with pre-existing terrestrial life forms (IE> apes), so that we can survive on this planet (think human/navi hybrids a la 'Avatar'), everything else on Earth has evolved for the price of countless lives.
You begin with a mutation. Maybe only one is every five hundred of these mutations survives. For everyone that survives, it has an increased chance of its own mutated offspring to survive. Eventually, two of these mutated lifeforms will breed and create a perfected mutated life form, one with an elongated neck, an extra claw, lungs that can spend more time under water, webbed feet, etc. Since humanities "creation", its gone through vast evolutionary changes through regional survival (diet, amount of sun exposure a day, climate, etc). Things like skin tone, hair and eye color, and height and weight are affected by all of these, creating races of humans as well as individual species of races determined by the above mentioned variations.

Originally posted by HUMBLEONE
What is this darwinian crap? Man, do you know where you be? This is ATS! Don't you know the real deal yet? Kay- check this out...space aliens flew down here and messed with everyones mutha$€¥£en DNA! Yeh, yo DNA, thats right, done f$€ked your shyte up! Aliens! Flyin saucers, big ugly assed walkin alligators playin you. Playin you right this minute. So watchu gonna do? Keep it real, that's what you gonna do. Damn sure I'm gonna keep MY shyte real. That's for damn sure. Cosmic sized can a whip ass bout to be opened up! Look out for that whip ass now. Cause here it comes.

LOL, that was actually very funny, i dont mind if you dont want to give a seriuos reply, thats up to you!!
but that was seriosly funny

reply to post by LordBucket


punctuaded equillibriam still uses darwinian means, just faster, and thats handy, Im sure Gould would call the cecal valve PE, but thats just a new name to describe somethign that does not fit, i mean its fath to believe what i have posted in that article?

reply to post by Mactire


you are simply describing evolution to me, not replying separtly to my above questions, as no one has of yet,
there is no such thing as a perfeted organism if evolution is true its constant tinkering!!
please try to answer the above

Evolution happens much more quickly than current science theorizes.

I ask,what came before the stuff that evolved into living things?.

What happened before the big bang?.

I don't think mankind is even ready for those questions to be answered.

reply to post by HUMBLEONEwait....
humble one.... your handle, he you right i agree with you i got to get myself turned around right, i'm trying
p.s. when we see the aligator looking dudes, we'll be casual and social to them, but....

According to evolution, the first organisms were single celled and therefore didn't require a nervous system or blood clotting etc - these developed over time with these systems.

OP debunked, just like that!

reply to post by Zenithar

How did the first organisms survive withouth dna repair or blood clotting? for surely they did not "pop" into existence with these mechanisms already functinoal?

In short, they didn't. Not very many of them at least. The first organisms got by this little hiccup by having short lives and by reproducing very quickly. Eventually overtime they became more adaptive, and able to survive longer through necessity.

do you belive that there is specified informatin in the cell?

Yes. We're starting to learn that a level of memory is carried in the cells, from our parents and possibly our ancestors. On a simpler level, cellular memory, such as instinct is necessary for any species to survive. Everything from genetic similarities between parent and offspring, to claw or hair placement could be construed as information that's stored in the cells.

do you think that Topoisomerase was formed through natural selection etc?

Everything from eyes to ears to their placement is a part of natural selection, so I'm sure the enzymes that hold together the DNA that create all living things must be a byproduct of the same evolution, and most definitely one of the first.

reply to post by babybunnies


firstly theres no need to "debunk" me, I'm not on either side, just leaning toward not bieng convinced by darwinism at the minute,,

okay so there first organissm dont need blood clotting(thats of course a guess from you and scicen i presume)
so...when it evolves a circulatory system, surely it would not have a ready made clotting system in place also, it would be far too coincidental,,

also, surely the first organisms had dna or some sort, and surely that dna was susceptible to mutations, even more so!!
soooo, how did that dna ever survive without a repair mechanism? surely you cant belive it was in place from the beginning!!

Originally posted by chiponbothshoulders
Evolution happens much more quickly than current science theorizes.

I ask,what came before the stuff that evolved into living things?.

What happened before the big bang?.

I don't think mankind is even ready for those questions to be answered.

I'm with you. Everyone talks about the Big Bang, and how the Universe is constantly growing and expanding, but expanding in to what? And if God created all things, then that would mean that He, as an "Origin Organism" would have had to have existed someplace. Where is that "place"?

If you really want the truth of it all, read Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything by Ervin Laszlo. He explains how TRUE science proves with out a doubt non-random mutations occur in evolution and that creation and evolution are not exclusionary.

reply to post by Mactire


You mean, you believe the first organisms did this, this is where the faith comes in,
Bacteria have short lives and reproduce rapidly,yet they still have a dna repair system, surely those “first” organisms, reproducing quickly, were especially vulnerable to dna damage and mutation what with the sheer amount of duplication of dna going on? Sooo, how did they survive this, for surely dna repair did not pop up soon after the original orgamisns, it must how been thousands of years later at the very least, and these organisms would not survive that long waiting for the repair mechanism to be “invented”

Everything from eyes to ears to their placement is a part of natural selection, so I'm sure the enzymes that hold together the DNA that create all living things must be a byproduct of the same evolution, and most definitely one of the first.

you mean you belive that everthing is part of natural selection, adn you infer topoisimerase is part of it based on this first assumption, have you truly studied this remarkable enzyme? and thought of the implications, for surely it would have to bee there from the first time dna repari systems were "stumbled on" otherwise, the dna supercoiling would never be relieved and,,,death,you cant simply wait around for topoisimerase to me "created">

reply to post by chiponbothshoulders

Evolution happens much more quickly than current science theorizes.

No, evolution happens much more quickly than 150 year old science theorizes.

reply to post by Zenithar

leaning toward not bieng convinced by darwinism at the minute

As well you should. The Origin of Species was written in 1859. It's a hundred and fifty years old.

It's long since been established that evolution happens much more quickly than Darwin originally theorized. Disputing "Darwinian evolution" is like disputing that the earth is at the center of the universe. You're a little late to the party.

Originally posted by theuhstuf
If you really want the truth of it all, read Science and the Akashic Field: An Integral Theory of Everything by Ervin Laszlo. He explains how TRUE science proves with out a doubt non-random mutations occur in evolution and that creation and evolution are not exclusionary.

hmm, sounds like a book I would enjoy!! I am very open minded and love studying many subjects so thanks!

Skeptics can beleive what they want. and Religious folks to.

What do I believe?

I would say that every generation passes on helpful information to their offspring towards their evolution.

Every day the giraffe reaches up into the tree but cant quite reach those good ones, he is programming a better life for his children into his dna to pass on a message - longer neck son, it'll do you good.

This makes infinite more sense to me then natural selection, as even the special freak would usually die of natural causes obliterating his codex from passing on. It makes much more sense that slowly but surely, every member of the species is engaged in the improvement of the species.

This could also apply to human beings,wherever we go in the world we have changed the shapes of our bones, the hight of our bodies, the colour of our skin all so that it fits in perfectly with our enviroment.

Do you really think mutants just sort of wandered around until they felt comfortable and stayed?

I refute darwin to my grave, my theory as above makes more sense to me individually, and there also exists the possibility of intelligent design as well, which I'm not going to expose as cannon fodder to the skeptic armament.

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by chiponbothshoulders

 

Evolution happens much more quickly than current science theorizes.

No, evolution happens much more quickly than 150 year old science theorizes.

reply to post by Zenithar

 

leaning toward not bieng convinced by darwinism at the minute

As well you should. The Origin of Species was written in 1859. It's a hundred and fifty years old.

It's long since been established that evolution happens much more quickly than Darwin originally theorized. Disputing "Darwinian evolution" is like disputing that the earth is at the center of the universe. You're a little late to the party.

edit on 21-10-2010 by LordBucket because: (no reason given)

what i meant was neo darwinism, the currnet synthesis and its mechanisms, you have not separatly answered the above questions yet

reply to post by Zenithar

you have not separatly answered the above questions yet

And you haven't read the links I provided. But I'll humor you anyway.

wouldnt that be sheer fatih to belive mutatinos could occur in those places and acrrue to produce to things that are so dependant on each other?

That depends. If you're assuming that the cause of such "mutations" is exclusively genetic "copy errors" from radiation, then yes that does seem like a leap of faith. But making that assumption is...an assumption. Why would you assume that?

How did the first organisms survive withouth dna repair or blood clotting?

I'm not sure what you're referring to with this question. You were talking about giraffes in the previous sentence, and I'm pretty sure giraffes have both dna repair and blood clotting mechanisms. But if you're talking about "first organisms" then they wouldn't necessarily even have had blood, let alone blood clotting. So the question is unclear.

for surely they did not "pop" into existence with these mechanisms already functinoal?

Loosely speaking, yes. As described in at least one of my previous links, one generation does not have these systems, the following generation does. And in extreme cases, we get speciation, in which the child organism is an entirely new species.

do you belive that there is specified informatin in the cell?

...again, a vague question. There is genetic information in a cell...but which "specified" information are you referring to?

do you think that topoisimerase was formed through natural selection etc?
surely its just faith to assert this

If you mean "natural selection" in the context of animals breeding and choosing mates based on survivability, then yes it would be "just faith" to assert that it formed in such a way. Possibly even silly. But who exactly is making this assertion? Where did you get the idea that natural selection was the caustive factor?

Do you belive that a lizard, displaced from its habitat onto an island adjacent to its own, an island with plants,(which the lizard has never digested before) growing a brand new structure in a mere blink of an eye(30 or 50 years)
this new cecal valve coincidentally allowed this lizard to process vegetal matter,

There's no coincidence about it. It evolved those structures to accomodate to its environment. Just like these bacteria evolved the ability to metabolise citrates, while under laboratory observation. Why did they evolve this ability? Because citrates were available. Kind of like, life on earth evolved to breathe oxygen...because there's oxygen here. It's not a "coincidence" that organisms on earth use oxygen. Had other materials been available, organisms would have developed to use those other materials instead.

do you evolution proponents out there truly believe this can be accounted for by darwinian means?
surly soemthign else is at work here...

If by "darwinian means" you mean "natural selection," no But like I've said several times now, the idea that natural selection is the primary motivating force behind evolution is hundreds of years out of date. Even Darwin said natural selection was not the whole story.

It's popular in schools to teach natural selection as the motivating force behind evolution, for probably about the same reason that fortran is still a required course for computer science majors. Yes, natural selection is probably a factor. Human breeding programs for animals attest to that. But assuming that it is the only factor requires ignoring as massive amount of data. Here's a list of dozens of observed instances of speciation.