Israel to deport non-jewish Children

reply to post by sakokrap

If the Jews were in their homeland of Egypt it would be ethical for them to deny permanent residency to the children of guest workers. Every people has a right to their own nation on their own land. The Israelis are acting just like their puppet-masters the Americans, who are denying citizenship to anchor babies when they are criminal occupiers themselves. The so-called leaders of Palestine who are hand-picked by the C.i.A. to relinquish Arab land claims may have little Arab blood like the puppet chiefs chosen by the Interior Department Bureau of Indian Affairs who are Asiatics, Jews and Black Africans and do not have the authority of our people, the remaining three million indigenous tribesmen of Terrapin Island, the continent outsiders incorrectly refer to as North America.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

we have caught on to the propaganda so I suggest you try a different approach

Lol. What propaganda would that be? Have you seen me write about anti-semetism even once in my posts?

I don't understand the nature of your post. Why are you linking me to a Neturei Karta website which is one of the most, if not THE most twisted religious sects? What am I supposed to pick up from it?
Do you think that as an Israeli citizen I don't know what or who they are? It feels like my intellect is being dismissed here.

I would be glad to go on for hours and hours with you about how the lands were "stolen", as I am sure this is the prime reason for you to be angry at Israel. This is not the issue tho. Read the thread title. Does it speak about the Palestinian arabs? No, it speaks about the deportation of the illegal immigrant's children.

I'll be glad to hear how deportation of children that belong to illegal immigrants is wrong and disturbing (beyond the fact that children are the issue) OR which country could let you move in and set your family without being a civilian or atleast a legal immigrant.

Stay on the subject, and while doing so don't go and whine about the antisemitism excuse without it ever being mentioned by me. It makes no sense to cry about it while the subject is totally different.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


You will have to excuse me
when I see the words blind generalizations and hatred on a thread about Israel

I equate that with the standard "anti-semitism" argument

My bad

The law of the United States says that any child born on the land of the US is a citizen of the state of their respective birthplace
And consequently they are a citizen of the US Federal Government
even if their parents are illegal

That is the current US law
The whole "anchor babies" argument does not hold water

It is a hypothetical comparison

The actions of the state of Israel concerning the well being of these children are typical actually
I would be surprised to see the state engaging in any sort of charitable activity
concerning the "goyim"

And for the rest of my comment
I was trying to explain to you why you might see certain threads that could appear to you as being "blind generalizations and hatred"

Israel is not very well liked
And it has nothing to do with race or religion
But it does have everything to do with policy

And the same goes for my country the good ole US of A

I would be more reserved when throwing around words like "blind generalizations" and "hatred" concerning a thread about Israel
IsraeliGuy

Cheers

Originally posted by IsraeliGuy
Hello ATS!

As "cheap" as it sounds, Israel, like any country in the world, does not permit anyone to move into the country and simply have children and start living there.
Nevertheless, there are thousands of illegal immigrants who still work in Israel while getting paid hundreds times better than they ever could be in their original country, which is why they chose Israel in the firstplace.

Hello and welcome to ATS, thank you for your considered reply. However Israel does allow anyone into the country and for them to have children, so long as they're Jewish. This is what you mean right? Also, would you please tell us if you would support this action or be prepared to lobby against it? I know there are plenty of Jew's against this action in Israel.

Please familiarize yourself with the 'Law of Return' directly from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs

An oleh's visa shall be granted to every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel,

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

That is the current US law
The whole "anchor babies" argument does not hold water

Why not?

The actions of the state of Israel concerning the well being of these children are typical actually
I would be surprised to see the state engaging in any sort of charitable activity
concerning the "goyim"

Please don't use this term in a way that can hint it is used by Israelies normally. It isn't.
Just a stupid way by extremely religious people to refer to anyone who is not a Jew,
You seem to have trouble understanding that while Israel has it's religious public, it is mostly a weak sect of the public which does not make any kind of important decisions regarding the nation, more like regarding themselves.

And for the rest of my comment
I was trying to explain to you why you might see certain threads that could appear to you as being "blind generalizations and hatred"

I'll explain.
Blind generalizations and hatred (add unneeded hysteria to that) is best seen when someone claims with no possible way to verify that claim, that Israeli immigration police wonders around in the streets on the look-out for Asians. That is simply idiotic.
Blind generalizations and hatred also come to mind when someone speaks of the entire history of Israel and claims it's as simple as "Israel is stealing arab lands because in the Talmud it says arabs are sub-humans".

You know, I don't know what the Talmud says and I don't really care, me and atleast 95% that never even read a single line out of that Talmud. But some people insist that the Talmud is the absolute guiding lines for Israel in everything it does. That is blind hatred and also fear mongering.
It is not much different than me claiming 9/11 happened because Muslims want to dominate the world.

Israel is not very well liked
And it has nothing to do with race or religion
But it does have everything to do with policy

Yeah it does. It seems to be trendy to root against anything Israel does nowdays while not being even slightly educated on the subject more than reading a couple of lines about it at some random conspiracy article site.

I would be more reserved when throwing around words like "blind generalizations" and "hatred" concerning a thread about Israel

Sorry but I am not one to play by certain unwritten rules when it comes to debating certain subjects.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Caveat Lector
Please familiarize yourself with the 'Law of Return' directly from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Again I don't understand why would one assume I am not familiarized with the laws of my country?
Please perform a research and find out how many Christian/Muslim people have been granted Israeli visa due to this law, and how many of them came from pitiful places full of poverty, hunger and death.

The Law of Return, if anything, is abused by people the same way the law in the US is abused (talking about the one that lets you become legal if you marry a local woman).
Hint - if you're married to a Jew, the Law of Return applies to you aswell. Now imagine how many people in piss-poor countries abuse that fact in order to become a legal Israeli citizen. Needless to say, on their arrival they immediately get divorced and start their new lives in their new country they have legally abused their way into.
Actually, in order to abuse the Law of Return, it's not that just being married to a Jew lets you do it, it's OK for you to immigrate to Israel even if one of your parents was at some time married to a Jew, or even one of your grandparents.

That was my take on the Law of Return, yet I fail to understand why would you mention it.


Oh yeah, and PERSONALLY I would not support the deportation of immigrant children seeing as there are only 400 of them and keeping them here would not be THAT much of a hassle. On the other hand, I do understand the need of the country to impose it's immigration laws in order for them not to be abused in the future (just like the Law of Return is abused to this day).

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


I am completely lost on what kind of a point you are making

But I will give you props for entertaining an intelligent discourse without stooping to name calling

I am very familiar with the policies of Israel
and yes. . . they are stealing the land from the Arabs that have been there for thousands of years

But we can forget about that and discuss the OP

K

Okay. . .

You see these are children that we are talking about
We are not talking about adults who understand how to hold a job and are much more easily
socialized to a new environment

We are talking about children
Children who speak only ONE language
And only know ONE culture

and that is the culture of the land where they were raised
and unfortunately for them it happened to be Israel

Tell me why does Israel have say over any of this anyway
They took the land through the use of violent force
and then they use blatantly racist laws to decide citizenship

and the most ironic thing about all of it is that being jewish simply means practicing a religion
it is in no way not at all and never has been a race of people

jewish = religion

it does not equal race
so if these children were deemed "appropriately jewish" by the law of return

then they would have a country waiting for them
in fact a good number of Israelis have the pleasure of holding dual citizenship

so they can have TWO countries to call home
but these children get none
the children that were born and raised as an Israeli
are being denied a country and culture to call home
BECAUSE OF RACE

thoroughly disturbing

cheers

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by IsraeliGuy

 

But I will give you props for entertaining an intelligent discourse without stooping to name calling

Why was I ever expected to reach the level of name calling? Meh..

and yes. . . they are stealing the land from the Arabs that have been there for thousands of years
But we can forget about that and discuss the OP

Sure.

You see these are children that we are talking about
We are not talking about adults who understand how to hold a job and are much more easily
socialized to a new environment

We are talking about children
Children who speak only ONE language
And only know ONE culture

and that is the culture of the land where they were raised
and unfortunately for them it happened to be Israel

Very touching.
Unfortunately, as I said, I don't think demographic issues are solved by simple emotional actions. Yes, they are children, and children should never reach the reality these ones are facing right now (although it is fairly better than what they had coming for them at their parents' homelands).
If that is the case, I ask why shouldn't the parents be more responsible and not bring children into this world while their citizenship is dubious? Isn't it obvious they are going to get deported eventually? Not speaking about the kids now - Isn't it obvious that one day, they are going to abandon the kids into a twisted reality and with an identity crisis?
If I ever migrated anywhere while knowing I am an illegal immigrant, I would NEVER think of having kids. Unless I want to play with someone's emotions.

Tell me why does Israel have say over any of this anyway
They took the land through the use of violent force
and then they use blatantly racist laws to decide citizenship

Didn't you previously stated you are not going to talk about the stealing of lands? If you insist on doing so I ask again please invite me to a different thread so we can discuss it where it is legitimate to do so.
For now the answer you will have to deal with is - Israel have a say over it because it is Israel's territories. If you were talking about Egypt, Syria, or the West Bank, I'd understand the claim of Israel being out of it's jurisdiction.

and the most ironic thing about all of it is that being jewish simply means practicing a religion
it is in no way not at all and never has been a race of people

If you really think that is the issue, please do try to migrate into Israel while stating the reason for you to receive your visa is that you converted from Christianity to Judaism. 50,000 dollars in cash are waiting for you right here if you succeed.
In short - No, your belief is not one of the criteria for your visa. You may claim there is no such thing as a Jewish race, only Jewish beliefs, but you are simply wrong.

But these children that were born and raised as an Israeli
are being denied a country and culture to call home
BECAUSE OF RACE

And why would you claim it is because of race? Atleast contribute an explanation to this silly debate.
The children are being deported because of immigration policies. Some countries have stricter policies, some have tighter. The Israeli policy simply allows you to get visa'd if you can prove you have Jewish relatives.
I would understand where you're coming from if the only way to get visa'd is to have Jewish relatives, but no, that is just a criteria for a pass, nothing less nothing more.
Claiming racism about that is not different than me claiming anti-semitism at anything I find offensive.

Cheers.

I'm off to get some sleep now and I hope I could answer more questions tomorrow.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

If that is the case, I ask why shouldn't the parents be more responsible and not bring children into this world while their citizenship is dubious? Isn't it obvious they are going to get deported eventually? Not speaking about the kids now - Isn't it obvious that one day, they are going to abandon the kids into a twisted reality and with an identity crisis? If I ever migrated anywhere while knowing I am an illegal immigrant, I would NEVER think of having kids. Unless I want to play with someone's emotions.

total and complete deflection from the point
and the winking emoticon c'mon
DUDE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INNOCENT CHILDREN

Didn't you previously stated you are not going to talk about the stealing of lands?

No I said that we should discuss the OP and if Israel stealing the land from the Arabs is related to the OP then its fair game
And yet more deflection from the point

For now the answer you will have to deal with is - Israel have a say over it because it is Israel's territories.

I am questioning the validity of Israeli's claim to the land
That is legitimate
The ONLY reason that Israel has the standing internationally
and with the UN that is currently enjoys is because it has the armed forces of the US at its beckoning call

In short - No, your belief is not one of the criteria for your visa. You may claim there is no such thing as a Jewish race, only Jewish beliefs, but you are simply wrong.

Actually I am right
I will let you read the words of this jew
He is trying to figure out "who is a jew"

“After all, how difficult can it be? Let’s make a state law for that and everything will be fine!”
Thinking in such a way and without checking the issue, the Knesset, Israel's Parliament, legislated the Law of Return On July 5, 1950. The law gives automatic citizenship upon landing in the state to those born Jews (having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother), those with Jewish ancestry (having a Jewish father or grandfather) and converts to Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, or Conservative denominations, though the last two must take place outside the state since these currents are not recognized by the Chief Rabbinate).

The day after, the confused cleaning lady of the Knesset asked the Prime Minister: “Who is a Jew?” Annoyed, the Prime Minister exiled her to Zambia and forgot her question. Until this day it remains unanswered and at the very heart of the State of Israel. Simply, it doesn’t differentiate between the ethnic group and the religion. Each one of these categories is open to different interpretations. Under certain interpretations, many millions of Muslims in Afghanistan and nearby Central Asian locations could ask for Israeli citizenship and transform the human landscape of Israel overnight.

The political leadership of the state is very careful not to touch this law anymore and to delegate personal issues (birth, marriage, death and in fact all religious matters) to the Chief Rabbinate. It’s a boiling potato. Even in Israel many citizens do not understand the issue properly. Israel likes to portray itself as a Western country, but its foundations are deep within Asia.
There are two basic models upon which nations are based.

One is territorial, claiming a country exists in a given territory; this is the situation in the Americas and Europe (the last may be changing, see the ugly treatment of Muslims in France).
The second is ethnic, claiming a nation is formed by individuals belonging to a given ethnic group. Many Asians countries belong to this category; Thailand is a good example. The early Thai kingdoms were almost nomadic in nature, moving slowly southwards from Xishuangbanna – in Yunnan, China – to Thailand’s actual location. These kingdoms were defined not by territory but by the people composing them. It is so to such an extreme, that only in 1913, the significant Chinese minority got citizenship.

link to quote

so you see even jews are confused about this topic

And why would you claim it is because of race? Atleast contribute an explanation to this silly debate. The children are being deported because of immigration policies. Some countries have stricter policies, some have tighter. The Israeli policy simply allows you to get visa'd if you can prove you have Jewish relatives.

You can't have it both ways
If being jewish is a race then the laws governing immigration are RACIST

but then again if jews are not a race but a religion
then the laws governing immigration laws are simply laws
that are related to an incredibly confusing process of citizenship

so what is it race or religion

reply to post by Caveat Lector


It really is quite disgraceful that the Israeli government should act in this way. Israel has historically, always had a policy of allowing persecuted or displaced minorities to enter and settle in their homeland. If they want this recognition to continue, and not give ammo to their foes in the middle east and elsewhere, then they should reign in their more right wing, proto facist elements... And should pursue a long lasting peace accord with the indigenous Palestinian populace. They shouldn't persecute Asian minorities in this way! They should practise what they preach... "suffer little children unto me..." You wrote it! You Do it!

Originally posted by ChiefHuntingBear
reply to post by sakokrap

 

If the Jews were in their homeland of Egypt it would be ethical for them to deny permanent residency to the children of guest workers. Every people has a right to their own nation on their own land. The Israelis are acting just like their puppet-masters the Americans, who are denying citizenship to anchor babies when they are criminal occupiers themselves. The so-called leaders of Palestine who are hand-picked by the C.i.A. to relinquish Arab land claims may have little Arab blood like the puppet chiefs chosen by the Interior Department Bureau of Indian Affairs who are Asiatics, Jews and Black Africans and do not have the authority of our people, the remaining three million indigenous tribesmen of Terrapin Island, the continent outsiders incorrectly refer to as North America.

Fantastic Post sir! My thoughts race this way and that pondering a response.

Egypt as a Jew homeland... that one has its merits certainly (or any of the other 12 tribes either). Unfortunately, much of my response would be best put in a different thread, but the part of "would it be ethical" is really a fantastic question. Truly, I can't answer that myself. Depending upon the source of measuring the ethics, one could truly arrive at many different answers. For me, my ethics require me to keep my nose in my own business and allow the enfranchised parties to figure it out.

Every people has a right to their own nation and land... That statement will echo with agreement with many here; although, I do not subscribe to it myself perse. I still have stiff intellectual, moral and spiritual challenges identifying with a collective. Your statement likely will only find challenges amongst those who have no "people".

While there, I did my best effort to remind, awaken and stir the local Israelis they were, IMHO, a servant whore of the US of A, and to RUN LIKE A THEATER WAS ON FIRE away from the USA. I reminded them of the former allies and friends of the USA puppet masters (Saigon, Grenada, Iran, the Taliban, etc). They'd be wise to run... we'll see.

Your citation of the CIA for the PLO is well grounded, but you neglected to mention Israel's part in creating some of the militant groups- particularly Hamas ;-)

Good, bad or ugly, history cannot be undone. And as for the record, we've learned that through the experience of the Indians, these Illegal Immigrant Infants, and the autonomy of Kosovo a simple fact that decisions are made with the use of terrible force, and that ethics are more a matter of historical discussion than an element making choices today.

Originally posted by Odessy
reply to post by All Seeing Eye

 

rense? how can you not see how anti Semitic that article is?
Oh, no one ever liked israel see? we shouldn't too...
idiot.

Well, at least you didn't call me a ANITSEMITE LOL LOL LOL Besides, I love the Ancestors of Jesus, the Semitic Palestinians! If anything you can call me ANTI-TALMUDIC, Ill accept that

If you dont like the message, you should have shot me before I delivered the message......... And besides, is what Rence gave us, untrue? Debate the material like a real live human being, not some mossad robot.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


Oh man, you're going to have your hands full... Luckily for you though, it should only take shtey-dakot ;-)

btw, welcome to ATS. You've got a thick skin and thorns (are you a Sabra???), so you'll do okay here.

Regarding non-Jewish immigration: we both know it doesn't exist in reality. Misrad Al'Hapanim משרד על הפענים isn't going to qualify many who don't have some local sponsor. Now, you're right to say this is a common procedure in most countries, but Israel has something most don't: a religious apartheid.

Further, I imagine you likely have an opinion and am curious if you'd be willing to share it.

If these children are allowed to stay:
How likely is it that these children will be encouraged to convert להתגייר?
Do you believe they will be accorded an education that does not include Jewish religious socialization

Btw, I'll back you up that it is generally a very secular country... as "jewish" as the former US of A is "christian". (but I reserve a mountain of comments regarding the religious socialization process within the state indoctrination system/school, and the holding of positions within government by non-Jews).

@ Josephus23

I really disagree with you about the definition of Jewish as solely upon religion. This is relevant because the children in question were not born of a Jewish mother (how one is infected with Judaism according to the Rabbinate). I is something more than a Race, to be certain (Israeli Jews come in all colors, shapes and sizes), but something also more than a religion. I would summarize it as an identity movement. -this opens up the dillemma about these kids. If they only know life in Israel, but have not been converted, nor have a Jew mother, they are not part of the identity עם אחד, and therefore forced to expulsion.

And here is your error. If it's illegal for immigrants to have children, then it's illegal. If there is a law in your country saying if you peddle drugs you die, who are you to impose your standards on them.
israel have every right to decide to do what they are doing. It is not cruel, it's the law, just like in NZ where people come from overseas have children and use that as an excuse to try not to get kicked out. We kick them out. You break the rules, you pay the price.

Stop being anti semitic and use illlustrations of Nazi Germany comparisons to spread your hate based on ignorance.

I'll sum it up again. If there is a law in your country, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, and you break it... should you be let off?

reply to post by sakokrap


I agree with your idea that it is an identity
I think that is an excellent way to describe it

but it is not a race

however the state of Israel wants to make this a racial issue and that is my point
they are creating a problem that need not exist

Israeli citizenship is not about race
it truly solely about religion
because converts are allowed citizenship and this can be anyone
(sammy davis jr)

so if jewish is a race
then what is sammy davis jr

black
african american
jewish
israeli
or a black dude that practice judaism

i say go with the last one

Its sounds so sureal that i cant even believe it, the media often exagerates the truth to get people all wired up.deportion does happen in my country (canada), and yes sometimes families get broken up, by sending part of families back to there countrys of origin, for behing here illegaly, for lying on your immigration application, for crimes commited in the past. Most of those stories are sad ones, in our time its so hard for families to stay together. Israel does have the right to deport who ever they want. But im my eyes i find it pure evil, they need those workers to make there country grow, to do the jobs that most people find degrading, they are part of the wheel that keeps the country going. To force them out, to stop them from ahving a family, to stop them from getting maried, serioulsy thats just inhumane. Its so hard for me living so far from the middle east to understand why, they do these things. The worst is the one about telling the person that they can stay if they have an abortion (i cant believe its true), is just horrible and evil.I am not sure how much religion has an impact on the government decision over there, is state and church seperate, those 2 just dont go well together.

And yes plz stop calling people anti-semite when we just tell you guys how we see these things, from a way different perception. By braking up families, by impossing crazy rules on people you so need, by treating palestinans like second class citizen, by saying Isdlam is evil and corupt, you guys are just playing in the racist and bigots hand, your giving them ammunation to hate Israel. Religion is good untill it tells ya how to feel, tells ya who to befriend and tells you to hate others.

Ive got 2 young kids and damn when i hear stuff like that it makes me boil, i have nothing againts Israel, i have issues with the policy makers do

just my 2 cent

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


Lol dude it dosent say anything about illegal immigrants, the story says about working foregneirs not alowed to have kids or get married lol, serioulsy what water are you drinking, cause it aint the same over here...

reply to post by Josephus23


And dude seriously go google who the semites are, it aint the majority of people that reside in israel, jeez your full of funny stories and what not, so cause we dont like israel deporting kids, where bad people, serioulsy, stop reading propagande and open your mind alittle, i dont want to insult you, i really dont, but jeez where do you come up with your lines

reply to post by daggyz


No you break the law of the country then you broke the law and could be punished. However, as in your quoted NZ, the children are considered kiwi's (New Zealanders) and have the right to citizenship. This is different from people who are there illegally in the first place OK?

SO I"LL SUM IT UP FOR YOU - the parents are there in Israel legally as temporary workers. Some meet, fall in love, have sex = some get pregnant. Yes I agree that have broken the law at this point (a law that doesn't apply to Jews btw). HOWEVER the children WERE BORN THERE. They are not citizens of any other country! They have all their friends and all they know based in their birth land which is Israel.

This is outrageous; the Israeli PM's wife is outraged, plenty of good Israeli's are outraged. I am outraged, I post this on ATS and that makes me what (?) anti-garbage is what! As for the Nazi comparison LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU that the Nazis enforced who got to live in occupied Europe not based on race but based on religion. The EXACT same thing in reverse that is happening now in Israel.

If you support this action, which sounds like you do, I pose that you are the one pushing HATE.