U.K. cleric: Rape is impossible within marriage

reply to post by SeenMyShare


That one is spot on. I can't argue with anything about it.

I will only add, that if, over the years, the relationship does turn less romantic, and there is no longer very much mutual sex, yet the parties do not believe in divorce, because of religious reasons, there is still a case to be made for concession sex. I feel it is still a "duty" to satisfy your partner enough to keep the sex within the relationship, without adultery, and without health risks of venturing out.

I still don't see anything wrong with satisfying one another, even when you aren't that into it at the time.

I do agree that "several times per day" is an addiction not a normal requirement, but a couple of times per week is not asking too much.

reply to post by stumason


If you want to talk about Equality in the UK when it comes to females Im all for it, seperate topic for discussion dont you think?

It amazes me that there are still males whom go about this planet,who thinks its thier right, to force themselves on thier spouses, wheither thier spouses consent to it or not. Unbelievable to say the least.

There is EQUALITY FOR YOU

reply to post by Laurauk


What does it have to do with "equality?"

Women force themselves on men in plenty of ways that are unique to women. Not all women of course, but enough women use their femininity to get away with things or gain some negotiating advantage.

Some women:
... lie to get pregnant.
... lie to get married.
... lie about sexual harrassment to keep a job.
... use sexual harrassment or flirtation as insurance to keep a job.
... cry to get out of trouble (ticket, fight, etc.)

There is no such thing as "equality" it is just some politically correct falsehood that will hopefully run its course and then go away. Sure, we should all be equal in rights, but not in abilities and natures. Women and men are physically different and emotionally different. We have different needs, motivations, desires, strengths and weaknesses. Nature designed us to be better or worse at certain things.

And, for the record, I have 2 friends right now, that are constantly complaining that their wives/girlfriends want too much sex, they can't satisfy them, it has become a source of fights, one has resorted to viagra and the other one is actually split up over it. He can't keep up, she thinks he doesn't find her attractive anymore or some other emotional b.s. It isn't just men that take sex through coercion or force. Women are just as guilty!

My wife grabs my "stuff" all the time when I'm sleeping (IE. w/o consent) should I press charges or just accept that she's a sexual predator and live with it?

reply to post by getreadyalready


As I have previously stated, It cuts both ways for either the husband or the wife. Obviously you have chosen to ignore this fact. The point I am making is that some seem to be Glorifying forcing sex on someone who does not consent to to having sex weither married or not, oremotionally black mail them just to get thier way. Nothing like having power over your wife or husband now is there.

... Some men go out with females to get them pregnant and leave them while they go on to make other females pregnant, so you can drag females down all you want males are just as bad.

... Men also lie to get married, when they are already married to someone else.

... oh so all Females lie with regards to sexuall harassment do they? So they just make it up out of the bluie for no reason what so ever?

... And male bosses dont? Come on what century do you live in. Many cases where male bosses have used thier postition to sexually harrass, harass or even bully female staff members as well as male staff members. Oh one supposes that is all false also is it.

... Your last part I am not even going to respond to, it just shows your male chauvonistick views on females all together,.

Equality in the work place will not go away when there is people whom has the same views as you do when it comes to females within the working enviroment. And it is here to stay.

If you read my previous comments I did not say it was just the male spouses whom is at fault here, it cut both ways so stop trying to distort my words, tyvm.

reply to post by Laurauk


You equally misinterpreted my words. I didn't say "all" sexual harrassment was falsified, and I only posted examples of bad female behavior to counter what is being said about males. I agree with you that some of those things cut both ways, however, I think we both know that it is next to impossible for a man to prove sexual harassment or rape, but it only takes a baseless accusation from a women to ruin a life.

I posted an ice cream example earlier. Tell me how it is wrong?

Either marriage is a "contract" or it is a religious affiliation. If it is a contract, it must be mutually beneficial. If it is a religious affiliation, then who are we to criticize the beliefs of one's religion?

Please tell me the benefits of marriage, other than tax rebates and lower insurance? Why would one enter such a restrictive contract without some guarantees of performance from the other party? Keep in mind, there must be some benefit beyond lifelong companionship, because that can be obtained by mutual parties without marriage. What is the benefit of marriage?

reply to post by Laurauk


Erm...

You say discussing equality is a different topic, but you brought it up AND are still banging on about it.

I have no idea why you think women aren't equal. I work for a FTSE 100 company and we have plenty of women working on all levels, from the bottom rung to the board room. Under the law, everyone is equal. Just because you get some nobheads who think women aren't, that doesn't mean you're not! If it was down to me, I'd have women playing football alongside men and be able to join front line units in the army.

I am still confused why you even bring that into this thread though. The issue at hand is whether rape within marriage is viewed as such by Islam..

reply to post by getreadyalready



Marriage, to me, is about making a legally binding commitment. You also get tax breaks if you're married and you're partner is better protected should you happen to croak early, ie; they can get your pension, insurance etc.

It has it's downfalls too, like (usually) not being able to "play away" or having half your stuff taken off you if the marriage breaks down, but that is soemthing you have to weigh up before hand.

reply to post by stumason


I suppose you do not agree that there is still a pay gap within the workplace when it comes to men and females?

Also 3 in 1 females are given top managerial jobs compared to thier male counterparts, whom are still favoured when going for interviews or the positions.. I suppose your going to tell me thats a lot of crap also are you?

Inequality towards women in sports also,as highlighted with the two tv sports presenters and a sports reporter making sexist remarks with regards to a assistant female referee, which has lead to one sports tv presenter being sacked, and the other two being suspended. I suppose there is no inequalities here also eh. Doesnt mater where you go, Equality for females in the UK has a very long way to go. And that fact cannot be disputed.

In this day and age, rape within the marriage, if it can be proven, should be treated criminally the same as anyone who is raped by anyone else.

But as I have previously stated another extreemist whom probably lives off benefits. Which I pay for. And he has nothing better to do than spout crap which has no place in society nowadays.

However, women are paid less than men – 21 per cent less in terms of median hourly pay
for all employees (and 13 per cent less than men for those working full-time). Allowing for
shorter working hours, weekly earnings of women in full-time employment are 22 per cent
less than those of men (using data from the Labour Force Survey; see Box 10.1 in Chapter
10 of the main report for trends in other measures). For women in their twenties, the gender
gap is much smaller (6-7 per cent in weekly full-time earnings at the median), but within four
years of graduation, nearly twice as many men have earnings over £30,000 as women. It
is sometimes assumed that wages tend to grow with age and experience. However, hourly
wages for women are highest for those in their early thirties, and lower for each subsequent
age group. Figure S6 shows the ranges of hourly wages for men and women at each age. It is
only for women with high qualifications and working in the public sector that one sees ‘career
progression’ in wages.

Equality Report uk 2010

reply to post by Laurauk


I won't say discrimination doesn't exist, because it probably does exist, but in my personal experience women are responsible for their lower pay.

Men are aggressive, forward, and risk takers. Men will often ask for raises, or even demand raises, and often times threaten to quit if they don't get a raise. Women typically do not do these things. I am speaking as a hiring manager, and also as a husband to a couple of timid women (one at a time of course).

My ex-wife constantly made less money than her counterparts at the banks she was working, even though her production level and loan generation were much higher. I constantly begged her to demand a raise, or take her skills elsewhere, but she wouldn't do it. She was the person at fault for her low wages, nobody else. After we got divorced, and she got a little kookoo, she also gained a knack for risk-taking, and she started to stick up for herself, and she bounced between a couple of jobs, but currently she is making a good bit more than any of her peers, and she is running a mortgage department on her own, with contractual obligations to be left alone to run the department!

This is only my opinion, but I believe the wage disparity is a result of the different attitudes and risk-taking abilities between the sexes. Many studies show that women are better long-term employees, they do better in stock-picking, they are better in many ways, but their stability and patience does not generate them higher wages. Men on the other hand, have a higher turnover rate, but they also have higher wages, because sometimes they get what they ask for, and they are not afraid to bounce from job to job in search of higher wages.

Originally posted by Laurauk
Anyone whom forces them selves upon thier partners for sex should be jailed for rape simple.

Again, we come down to "FORCE" as a qualitative distinction for rape. (as it should be! ) .

In some countries, lack of sexual satisfaction from a marriage is valid grounds for filling for divorce and therefore SEX and MARRIAGE are not mutually exclusive arrangements in the eyes of society ALL over the world.

In Islam, women are still according to the Koran, the property of the man and thus the mullah would not be wrong in saying that a man can "use" his property.

However, in modern Western democracies, this theory is outmoded and no longer in practice and thus we have this "clash of culture". However, that is not to say that even in Western societies, marriages always involve "active" sex every time. The difference quite rightly is - CONSENT, which I think should form yet another qualitative distinction for rape, however, unlike Sweden and other runaway liberal/feminist distopias legislating the extent/duration of consent and giving people the ability to withdraw consent ex-post facto is very much policing people's bedrooms- which in and of itself is undue government oversight that impinges on the liberty and the right to happiness of free democracies.

reply to post by IAF101


So would you same the exact same thing with regards to forced marriages? Females whom are forced into marriage under islamic law, and forced to have sex against thier will. Oh One suppose there is text in the Koran which allows this also is there. Now there is morality for you

Then there is the multiple wifes. Oh it is okay for the Male to cheat around on his wife, but is she is found out by strict islamic law she is stoned to death. Hmms there is in equality for you.

And if the wife can prove that her husband forced himself upon her without her consent then in the eyes of the law in the UK it is RAPE. If it is her word against his, then it would be difficult to prove. Unless he kills her before she can give evidence, as seen in honour killing in the name of Islam.

reply to post by IAF101


Forget the Koran or any religious beliefs as they are not relevant, unwanted forced sexual intercourse is rape.

Plain & simple.

Originally posted by Laurauk
So would you same the exact same thing with regards to forced marriages? Females whom are forced into marriage under islamic law, and forced to have sex against thier will. Oh One suppose there is text in the Koran which allows this also is there. Now there is morality for you

Arranged marriages have been the "norm" for THOUSANDS of years, especially amongst aristocracy until quite recently. Even today, it is custom is many parts of the world ! You have to notice, there is a difference between arranged marriages and forced marriage. Either way in Islam, a unwed girl is her Father's "property" to "give off" to a suitable male upon reaching a specific age. This is Islamic culture and is practiced all over the Islamic world. Without this practice, there would be no way most of these people would get married ever in a culture as closed and segregated as Sharia describes.
When these women ( rather girls usually) get "married" they know what is expected of them and they are told what to prepare for.by their mothers who went through the same thing. Is that fair ? No, but its their culture and they see it as "normal". The only people who can change that reality are those who live it. Not us.

Originally posted by Laurauk
Then there is the multiple wifes. Oh it is okay for the Male to cheat around on his wife, but is she is found out by strict islamic law she is stoned to death. Hmms there is in equality for you.

In Islam a man can have FIVE wives at most. And infidelity in Islam can only be proven against a man if he is witnessed by either one man or two women because a woman's word is half of a man's word. That is what their religion dictates.

You keep asking about "equality" and "if it is fair", these questions are at best obtuse and at worst ignorant when one is apply it to other cultures. Islamic culture is what it is, the "fairness" of it is for its practitioners to question. The idea's of veiling a woman, confining them to the house and other such restrictive practices might seem barbaric to you and I but to many Islamic women these things protect their "virtue" and make them "a good wife/woman" in the eyes of their god. They do not consider these things inconveniences or injustices against them. In fact, they see our Western culture as lewd, promiscuous and cheap.
So while you saddle your high horse and prepare to ride off to "save them", you might consider the possibility that they might not need our condescending preaching or our help.

Originally posted by Laurauk
And if the wife can prove that her husband forced himself upon her without her consent then in the eyes of the law in the UK it is RAPE. If it is her word against his, then it would be difficult to prove.

Isn't it always his word against hers between a husband and his wife? Or is their some third-party present during coitus in their bedroom to judge the "nature" of the act ? This is why trying to legislate this kind of thing has become really hard and a foolish waste of time. The best and perhaps the only way to solve this issue of forced sex in marriages is to empower women and give them options of independence and an exit plan.

Originally posted by Laurauk
Unless he kills her before she can give evidence, as seen in honour killing in the name of Islam.

edit on 28-1-2011 by Laurauk because: (no reason given)

Honor killings are to assuage honor, not to silence people! Learn the difference. Honor killings are usually done by the girl's own family (that is her brothers, father, uncles etc) who deem her actions as having denigrated their collective honor/reputation in society and thus her death is seen as the only recompense they can offer society to remove the taint on their family name. A husband cannot kill his wife in an "honor killing". The Sharia court would do that for him if he can prove that she stepped out on him (obviously vice versa is seldom true! ) .

reply to post by IAF101


Just because it's their culture and they perceive it to be the "norm" doesn't make it normal...

This can only be changed through education from a more intelligent and civilised population.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Nothing is plain and simple in real life, unfortunately. Religion, law, society, culture etc all play a part in rape within marriages. Obviously, there is a lot of confusion on how to prosecute these kind of abuses because in today's multi-cultural communities, people from all over the world have different customs and religious obligations that are thrust upon them by their parents, society, friends etc. Some cultures see a woman's duty in a marriage as only producing babies, some see her as a new possession that is used to further social or religious goals. Other people may not have any cultural or religious obligations thrust upon women in marriage.

Until and unless everybody regardless of their cultural, religious affiliation share a common understanding about a set of values then these kinds of sexual abuse is bound to occur. In this aspect, I find the French method of absolute uniformity in their citizens as something more Western democracies should try to emulate. There are no men, women, gays, hetros, transgendered, etc etc, only citizens and non-citizens. I think this is a novel solution that by-passes all the accommodations otherwise required to make all cultures feel "inclusive" at the expense of degrading the overall value structure of a nation.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Why don't you be the one to go into a Mosque or go upto an Islamic community center and tell them that their culture needs to be "educated" by people more "civilized" so that it can become "normal" ?

Unless, the UK is going to regulate Islam externally and independently and set up a separate rule book for British Islam that makes it more standard with Western values, you are going to have problems like this keep coming up.

reply to post by IAF101


Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with everyone in that post. But as far as I'm concerned, the cultural or religious debate aside, forced unwanted sexual intercourse is rape regardless.

However, I do agree with you that it's going to be a long time before certain cultures understand that.

Originally posted by IAF101
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Why don't you be the one to go into a Mosque or go upto an Islamic community center and tell them that their culture needs to be "educated" by people more "civilized" so that it can become "normal" ?

Unless, the UK is going to regulate Islam externally and independently and set up a separate rule book for British Islam that makes it more standard with Western values, you are going to have problems like this keep coming up.

I don't disagree with that, I think you have made a pretty spot on evaluation. Like I said though, just because they think that way doesn't make it legal or right...

reply to post by Americanist


Sounds like a baptist preacher.

I'll bet he's bad at dancing, too.

I smell an islam / Baptist overlap conspiracy!