Mayan Calendar Questionable (Debunked?)

reply to post by rajaten


There is a difference between astronomy and astrology.

A galactic alignment will happen and we can track that through astronomy, but creating a mythological tale that predicts the future in which a significant, catastrophic or spiritual event occurs from astronomical events is called astrology.
You can see how successful astrological predictions of events from astronomical events are, by simply reading your horoscope in newspapers.

Thats is all the 2012 buzz is, astrology.

reply to post by rajaten


Ok Rajaten,
I watched the video with Jenkins.
But he even says himself that the Mayans would not have a clue about the galactic alignment or "precession".
Probably because the Mayan didn't even know what a galaxy was, let alone a solar system.

He seems like a nice, well spoken guy but pretty oblique on his explanations of galactic precession and alignment.
In other words, what the heck is he talking about???

I guess I'm just too dense to understand what this video has to do with the Mayan calendar.

Thanks again and 73's,
Tom

reply to post by tomdham


Tom,
Congratulations on authoring your first thread! And just so ya know, I was the lucky one to give you your very first Flag .

I know a little about the Mayan calendar, and actually probably knew more about it 20 years ago when it peaked my interests to look into it. My father had/has some out of print older books from the early 1900s about Mayan, Aztec, and Olmec cultures, and I found it fascinating. Although I think I understand the Mayan calendar, I recognize (was taught) that there was an effort by some countries and religious interests and organizations to suppress, control, demonize and in some places destroy Mayan and Aztec literature, religious institutions, and leadership. But, I hope, there is enough of their culture and history remaining to make some connections between the existing bits of information.

Although it has been well over a decade, I have read some interesting and intriguing older books on the Mayan cultures, five older books total. At least four of them are still in my father's possession. My father recieved his masters degree in Earth Sciences from Illinios State Universtity in the early 80s, and Native cultures were an interest of my father's side of the family going back a few generations. My grandfathers collection of arrowheads and other relics was well into the thousands, some of which he buried underneath the foundations of houses he built in Illinois. Not sure why, other than he said he had no place to store them all, and he wanted to preserve them for the future.

In the Summer of either 2004 or 2005 (can't remember which year off hand) my family took a two week vacation in Mexico, and we stayed at an all inclusive resort south of Cancun. Myself, one of my younger brothers, my parents, my aunt and uncle (by marriage) and my young (eleven yrs old) cousin Mary, and my seventy year old grandmother went. We hooked up with some tour guides and took four tours of some of the lesser well known sites and Mayan cities of the Yucatan area, and even a few sites in Belize. Our tour guides were well versed and we spent some time eating with the very welcoming locals and Mayan natives in the region. Interesting food stuffs by the way.

I had the pleasure of climbing and standing upon some very elevated pyramids/temples and the view over the top of the jungle canopies was a religious experience in itself. The trails were long from building to building, but the architecture was worth it. (Grandma was in a seated carriage attached to a kind of bicycle). It was hot and humid, but the view of these sites was phenomenal. We calculated that we walked over 5 miles one day at one city. I was surprised to learn the building and temples were so far apart in some areas.

As for the Mayan Calendar, it is an interesting thing to study. The images and symbols coupled with what we understand concerning astrological and astronomical aspects makes different interpretations possible. Coupled with the fact that WE KNOW there were historians and non-historials trying to suppress and control the information itself, and what was made available to laymen for study.

I do not know how I personally feel about the December 2012 date, but I do plan on being around long enough to see that day

Again Tom, congratulations on your first thread! I've only read the Opening Post thus far, and have taken a couple breaks while typing this, because I just woke up not long ago, and walking Fido is something that has to be done. Fido likes his walks

Thanks for writing this and sharing you thoughts about it Tom,
John Paul

Originally posted by ariel bender

There are no Mayan beliefs of the earth ending in 2012...it is created out of thin air by people selling themselves, and their products. This is a manufactured belief generating a cottage industry.

The last item is the Olmecs developed these calendars, not the Mayan.

Hey ariel,
Just found this by googling Mayan calendar scams!!

Very interesting and points out exactly what you are talking about.

The 2010 Mayan Calendar Scam

And the plot thickens...
Obviously the "hoaxers" (you know who I mean!) did just make the whole thing up.
They definitely are not scientists, archeologists or understand the writings of the Mayan.
Kinda like Sitchin and Sumerian?

Sitchin, Von D,etc.

Anyway have a great day,
73's
Tom

reply to post by rajaten


While Jenkins has more knowledge of the Maya than most 2012 believers he is still little better than someone like Carl Calleman. Take for example his "proof" that the Mayans knew about the precession of the Zodiac. All he did was multiply the Long Count by five.

Originally posted by tomdham

Could you explain exactly what:
1) The galactic alignment "FACT" is?
2) What it has to do with Mayan calendar?

3) What is the galaxy aligning with?

Thanks again.
73's,
Tom

Tom
I forgot to mention that I liked the fact that you included links to pre-existing older threads on the subject matter from years past, btw.

Some of this may indeed help support your thread premise, Tom....


Galactic Alignment

It is important to define what the Galactic Alignment is in precise astronomical terms. (See the Glossary below for terms.)

The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes.

Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below).

The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997).
Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is "era-2012."

This Galactic Alignment occurs only once every 26,000 years, and was what the ancient Maya were pointing to with the 2012 end-date of their Long Count calendar.

_________________________________________

_________________________________________
These are the astronomical facts of the matter. From a larger perspective, we can visualize the 2012 Galactic Alignment in the following way:

Position A is where the December solstice sun was in relation to the Milky Way some 3,000 years ago. Position B is 1,500 years ago. And position C is "era-2012", when the December solstice sun has converged, as a result of the precession of the equinoxes, with the exact center-line of the Milky Way (the Galactic equator). Notice that the place of alignment is where the 'nuclear bulge' of the Galactic Center is located.
Source

REALLY GOOD Explanation VIDEO
LHC-ATLANTIS 2008 ( Galactic Alignment 2012 APROVED ! )

Hope this helps,
ET

Thank you, Tomdham for quoting an actual archaeologist, who is able to frame the problem clearly. Archaeo-astronomy is an extremely complex multi-disciplinary study. It requires specialized knowledge in fields as diverse as linguistics, mathematics, archaeology, geography, sociology and so forth. Even in the professionally trained community, there are very few people who can interpret the remains and records, put them in their proper context and understand them fully. It is a life-time's occupation and the results are never definitive. They are doing real research, and not always coming to the same conclusion. This is in direct contrast to the self proclaimed "experts" whose "research" consists of making wild interpretations based other people's translations. Time and again one hears from people who claim to have "researched" 2012, Nibiru, ancient astronauts, etc, and yet the "research" consists entirely of watching YouTube videos and reading sensationalistic fantasies by the likes of Sitchen, von Daniken, et al. Ironically, they are often the first to challenge gainsayers to "read the Enuma Elish." Reading a translation of the Enuma Elish is not actually reading it, even in a scholarly translation. It is necessary to understand the actual language, how the authors thought and expressed themselves. I think the ancient Babylonian priesthood would be offended by having their gods reduced to the status of mere spacemen, and the Mayan mathematicians offended by the reduction of their intricate cosmological model into a buzz-word for selling snake oil.

The Mayan Calender 2012 phenom is B.S and let me explain why. It's pretty simple really, a calender is a cycle, it doesn't end. When December 31st rolls around we have a big party and count down till midnight when the calender resets back to January 1st. The world doesn't end, there's no huge paradigm shift, people just keep partying till they pass out and eventually wake up with a huge hangover not wanting to go to work the next day. And I guess that's what we should do 12/21/12 just celebrate, live life, enjoy.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

Hey ET,
Thanks for the S&F, my first flag ever! Can't wait to go to the ATS store and get me a new iPhone4.
Or with 2 stars maybe a battery for it.

Also, thanks for all of the info. I will study it and get back to you with some thoughts.
BTW, I did graduate college and I know what a precession is. Where they have marching bands and people carrying statues and stuff, right?
Oh, and will there be a test?

Back to the subject at hand. I have been to Mexico as well. Didn't do any exploring as extensive as you and your family though. And my knowledge of the calendar and the 2012 "prophecy" is fairly recent.
My interest in the calendar developed here on ATS. But there is so much trite, disinfo and out and out crap that I just had to find the truth. At least a truth that is based on reason, common sense and FACTS!

Thanks again for the S&F, really appreciated.
73's,
Tom

reply to post by DJW001


You are quite welcome DJW,
And thank you for the reply.
As I stated earlier, I am only looking for the truth. Most of which eludes the charlatans and snake oil salesmen (as mentioned above).

Yes I used to go out with a Archeologist from U of Alabama, she was "just" a fauna specialist for about 15 years. She was involved extensively with ancient Amerind grave sights around the US. They had many different people involved with different disciplines and expertise involved.
So yes I know what you mean. THE FACTS, Mam only the FACTS!
Thanks again for your reply,
73's,
Tom

While I don't buy into the 2012 conspiracy as an accurate predictor of the end of days, or the beginning of a new era, I have to admit, that I'm on the hoping end that something does happen. Humanity is becoming increasingly stagnant. We need something to jolt us off of the status quo cog that we've been stuck on for the past decade or so. All of our technology these days is anti-progressive, facebook and twitter are making narcissist out of our youth, our wars are meaningless, and our religions (even the "peaceful" ones) are whistling like a pressure cooker about to go. No wonder 75% of the world is on medication to keep them sane or alive. Something has to change.

reply to post by tomdham




If you want to study the Mayan culture, start with the Olmec. Much of what we call Mayan, is Olmec.

I have the sneaking suspicion if the economy was not doing as badly there would be much less interest in the end of the world, we are being needy on a cosmic scale.

Click here for more information.

The one thing that has always struck me about the Mayan calendar.
How come they didn't know, and make a significant date of their own demise ?

reply to post by ukmadmax


What demise are you speaking of ??

There are more than 8 million maya.

reply to post by Museatlantis


Which is something every single society has thought was happening in their own time. Hasn't ended yet, probably won't tomorrow or next year.

I think it is funny that anyone puts any credibility behind it at all. I have a perpetual calender which ends in 1954. Oooooo spooky.......the world was going to end because my calender did? No. They didn't have the internet in 1954 to rapidly spread silly stories by people who think that everything they see on the internet is true. They knew the calender would go on.....they just needed to get an updated edition.

reply to post by Le Colonel


I think the system they used to devise the calender was an act of genius for their day. My thoughts as to how they achieved such advanced knowledge is that they were indeed in direct contact with a higher intelligence. So I personally take the possibility of these events occurring...very seriously. That's my choice as a survivalist... who doesn't like things dropping in her lap without a heads up and a little time for preparation.

"I think the system they used to devise the calender was an act of genius for their day"


The Olmecs created this calendar system long before Mayans, and it was an act of Genius.
But it did not involve aliens or higher brings, it involved generations of research and observation with strict discipline.and understanding of astronomy and mathematics. The Babylonian Civilization had incredible achievements as well, and we still use their systems today, as we do with Egyptian, Ethiopian, Druid, and so many other cultures and civilizations.
These people discovered principles of Science in use today, and we should credit them with their achievements.

We should be less worried about earthquakes and more worried about these beings pretending to be aliens.

reply to post by Justanothername


In all of the Classic period there is only a single monument that mentions the 2012 date. This monument mentions that this date is connected with the descent of one of their gods, who is often associated with war and aggression. The concept that the Mayan calendar ends after 13 baktun is, at the earliest, a Colonial concept and does not accurately reflect the truth beliefs of the Mayans, especially considering that there are many Classic calendars that extend up to 20 baktun.

Then there is just the fact that changing dimensions is pure pseudoscience and has no basis whatsoever in science. To mock someone for not "doing their research" and then to make such claims is completely hypocritical. Many of the people who make such claims tend to only "research" those theories that subscribe to their world view while ignoring the big picture. The bottom line is, anyone who claims to be a Mayan expert and supports the 2012 hoax is either a snake oil salesman or deluded by their own beliefs.