Rebuttal to "The Sun" (UK newspaper) article slandering DMT (dimethyltryptamine).

reply to post by Skyfloating


nope. i'm not out to "prove" anything. i'm just illustrating some of the cosmic humor present in propaganda style writing by turning it on its head. there is plenty of scientific jargon i could throw around regarding '___''s properties and functions in our bodies, but i'm not trying to prove anything. i just wanted to have a little fun with the sun!

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

No offense, but you sound like a parody of a Christian evangelical.

A bit of advice; pretend, just for a moment, that Christianity is not the most obvious way to think about the world and that everyone else is deviating from the one true path. Now, imagine how you would convince other people that your Christian view is valuable and relevant. You have it all backwards, you're making arguments from faith that people who do not share your faith will not agree with. And you act like your argument is sufficient to convince the unfaithful that you are right!

P.S. uncritical consumption of the Bible can also be bad for your health.

It is true that it is not obvious. The Bible describes this as a common response to the truth. In fact Jesus said,

13“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hellf is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

In my youth I tried most of the ways that the psycho-libs tout as paths to enlightenment. I know exactly their value. They are hypocrites because mostly it's just to self-medicate and self pleasure. Indeed the new values are precisely the terrible ones that the Bible prophesies will characterize the last days, namely , "Men will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God".

You have chosen the broad path to hell. No doubt you have will the good company of many poor souls in this generation; many of whom think recreational drug use is benign. I am simply pointing out the danger of this choice, but in the end the choice is all yours, neither God nor I will force your decision, unlike the current religion du jour, radical Islam.

reply to post by SevenThunders


I don't understand this. Whenever I encounter an evangelical preacher, instead of doing the common-sensical thing and ignoring his incendiary comments, I try to teach him something about rhetoric. I try to help evangelists out because if they can get their message across in a way that doesn't sound condescending and frankly insane to people of little faith, then maybe everyone will get along much better. Yet, they always reject my advice to be less aggressive and continue to preach to those totally uninterested in hearing them. Why do you punish yourselves so? Take a page form the Scientologists and the Mormons and be nice to people, don't tell them that they are going to hell and that everything they think, believe, do and say is sinful.

I reiterate, I am trying to help you, I am not trying to tear you down. I am not your enemy, and I do not appreciate being treated as an adversary - - especially since Adversary means Satan in the Evangelists' lexicon.

P.S. I am far more likely to convert to Islam, a religion of poetry, than Christianity, a religion of icons.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


Actually you insulted me several times in your first response. Not that I really care given the anonymous nature of the internet. I also care very little for rhetoric, beyond that of presenting evidence which supports the truth. So calling it "help" is a bit odd. None of what I said was particularly hostile to any individual, though I do castigate liberals. I should probably be more specific and cast scorn on liberalism, having no intent to antagonize any particular individual, even if they are caught up in a destructive worldview.

The primary offense of the gospel to most, is the idea that they are guilty of sin. No one wants to be accountable to anyone these days, especially an all powerful God. The other side of this coin is that no matter what your sin is, you can find forgiveness and wholeness in Jesus Christ. Unfortunately few are humble enough to accept the idea that they are not right before the judge of all mankind.

Again all I'm trying to do here is warn people away from the idea of drug abuse having any value, both from a physical and legal standpoint, but more importantly from a spiritual standpoint. I have no interest in judging anyone who has fallen into that particular trap, but merely wish to point out it's dangers.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
I feel very sorry for the youth of today. So called progressives are progressing their societies into the abyss and brainwashing people into destructive dogmas.

This is a dangerous drug. You are killing brain cells and endangering your lives. These drugs are addictive. They are also demonic and open up your spirit to demonic oppression. Yet the cultural brainwashing inculcated by the left tries to tell us that drugs are good. That anything from another culture is clearly positive.

My suggestion is to get high on the Bible, exercise and vitamins rather than psychotropic hallucinogens. You'll have a lot more effective and meaningful life, than pissing it away on dangerous drugs.

First of all, hallucinogens are not addictive

Secondly, a large orange kills more brain cells than a 6 pack of beer.

As for demonic oppression, trying to come up with a response to that makes me feel like I'm on drugs...

reply to post by SevenThunders


And I feel sorry for people who desperately cling to old ways when those ways are absolute, total b.s.

You should put the Bible down long enough and read about what '___' actually is before you judge people.

Also, drug use isn't limited to the young or the progressive.

What would your god have to say about you judging people like this?

reply to post by SevenThunders


The fact that you castigate anyone, goes against the teachings of your so-called God.

This is my biggest problem with ATS. People hell bent on judging each other and making assumptions, reinforcing stereotypes.

I actually think it would be a good thing for everyone to experience this at least once in their life.

From the general public to the mental patient.

It makes sense that is, "the most illegal substance on earth" to quote Joe Rogan. Everyone I know comes back saying to hell with the system.

reply to post by SevenThunders


If you reject rhetoric, it's no wonder you have failed to convince anyone in this thread of anything. Rhetoric is the art of presenting the truth. It is the art of effective communication. I don't know what you think it is, but that is all there is to it.

None of what I said was particularly hostile to any individual, though I do castigate liberals

You do realize that "liberals" is a very broad and inclusive term, and that you are lumping together many dozens of groups that have little to do with each other? You are castigating many people who are liberal in many ways but reject psychedelics for one reason or another. If your rhetoric was better, you wouldn't make these sweeping generalizations that discredit your arguments.

Do you not see how it might be offensive to tell they of little faith that they are sinners? It's not as though a lack of faith means a lack of moral or ethical concern. The unfaithful usually conduct themselves with good ethical standards, and often better standards than the faithful. What reason do they have to believe that they are sinners? Because you tell them that they are? What use is redemption to people who do not feel that they have some sort of stain on their soul? What use is the Gospel to people who feel that they can be ethically upright and responsible individuals without an omnipresent God to monitor them?

Again all I'm trying to do here is warn people away from the idea of drug abuse having any value, both from a physical and legal standpoint, but more importantly from a spiritual standpoint.

Therein lies your main fault. You are arguing with people who recognize the inherent spiritual value of psychedelics. Trying to spook these people with 'drugs are bad, if you do drugs then you're bad' will not work. They have been overexposed to this anti-drug message at every stage in their life. The difference between your arguments and theirs is that they have done the research into the spiritual value of psychedelics, and apparently you have not. They know more than you do, and they present their arguments in a more cogent manner. They use superior rhetoric to make their arguments more convincing.

reply to post by The Cusp


Hallucinogens aren't addictive? Once again, I think this is something that the drug reform groups need to look over again and change up their strategy. Just because scientifically the drugs aren't addictive doesn't mean it isn't very easy to be addicted to them. Trust me, I have met plenty of people who ARE addicted to '___', '___', Mushrooms, Ketamine and the like. On that note, I think its even hard to compare the addictions of psychedelics to hard drugs or alcohol/tobacco. One end you want more because your body and brain actually need more of the drug to function properly, on the psychedelic side you have the person, or even perhaps the soul, wanting more for whatever reason. I strongly believe in the power of certain illegal drugs and the good they can do, but you can't downplay how dangerous these drugs can be if abused, and in my world, I see them abused far more than being used to better themselves.

Originally posted by Faiol
pr.op.a.g.a.nda

really, something natural kills you? well, we have a problem then batman

I'm uncertain of what you're trying to say, but it READS like you don't believe natural things can kill you. Well, let me make a list.

Cyanide
Hemlock
Certain mushrooms
Elderberry roots
Asparagus berries
Daffodil bulbs
Giant Hogweed
to name a small few.

then onto the absurd
earthquakes
comets
volcanoes

etc.

reply to post by SevenThunders


If you are an example of the way Christians view the people that inhabit the planet with you; I'll pass on Christianity. The way you "Witness" for the Lord isn't going to gain many converts with your arrogance, meanspiritedness and holier than thou attitude.

I think I'll subscribe to a more gentle and tolerant, shamanic path.

This is the Video of Bruce Parry talking '___' with an amozonian tribe. the video is taken from Bruce's series TRIBE, which is amazing and should be tracked down if your interested in the lives of different tribes around the globe.

The first time I watched this I was in hysterics, its such a crazy scenario for anyone to find themselves in.

this is the 2nd part of 2

i'd like to reiterate something and hopefully get people back on track with the topic at hand. i am a christian. i believe in the teachings of christ, and i believe there is something akin to heaven, though i don't think 99% of people have a proper idea of what heaven or hell is or is not. i fall somewhere between the 99% and the 1%. i have some idea, but let's be honest... we can't really know. we also can't really know that the teachings in the bible are totally accurate. i love a lot of what jesus has to say, but he's a mystic through and through and through again. he talks more like a shaman or a psychonaut than anyone who even recognizes a so-called differentiation between the core of a person based on their "liberalism" or otherwise. the point is we are all people and all a part of the same cosmic experience connected as one in one. hallucinogenics, or psychedelics, whatever you wish to call them are a natural part of our earth and of our minds. so to condemn them blindly because they're anti-god somehow, is just a bizarre twist of verbiage, and as previously mentioned... very poor rhetorically. i believe there is a call from god to the creatures of our universe to manifest the spiritual beliefs in our mind... mind manifest... psyche-delic. come on guys. don't preach without a pulpit, and don't build babylon out of the rearrangement of something "god" may or may not have ever even mentioned. for how prevalent the idea of a god is in our society, there is shockingly little proof. god is a fabric woven through our existence for all of time. you can't reduce god to a man in a cloud telling people not to use certain plants when in judeo-christian texts, the source for many judgmental peoples' tirades, he plainly states his will for men to have dominion over all creatures and all plants... if you do want to use god's word as a reference for the contraindication that '___' can be useful, find me a verse that says "He spoke unto his people telling them, ye shall have dominion over all plants, excepting those that contain '___'. Your use of said plants shall be in a fashion that does not promote thoughts or visions of me, and ye shall pray unto me, but never use said plants as a part of your ritualistic devotion. Also stay away from mushrooms, not ye all of them avoid, nay but the ones that bruise blue." come on. if you're gonna stick up for your God, and you think you know him better than the next man, you had better have a response to the person who says "cut the BS, and give me some proof..." and it better look less like a reference to some obscure infinitely translatable text in a book that has been recanonized a thousand times, and more like... "well actually!" and then you pull out some glowing orb that shows the actual hand of God writing explicit warnings against such things on the walls of the observer's mind... really though, your best chance of that scenario playing out is during a '___' trip... so you're kind of fighting an uphill battle. you have to recognize what the battle is you're fighting. you may see it as you and god versus the dmt smoking addicts who are trying to give drugs to your children, or you can see the truth of talking at yourself into a mirror of someone who has taken a slightly different but no less real path to finding answers about the universe, and they're just a little more curious and less satiated by a book your mom told you was the "truth" when you were 5 years old... even though i happen to believe that book is in fact quite real and truthful, and contains a lot of information... i'm still not going to use it as my sole argument against someone who is claiming to have found divinity by unlocking the potential of their mind, whether through meditation, supplementation, whatever.... instead, i'm going to shut the hell up for a minute (pun intended), and listen earnestly to what wisdom they may know before making a decision. amen.

For religious purposes, '___' is legalized in Brazil, Spain and the US (although they were desperatelly trying to take it down in the US ... here you can check a .pdf file with the supreme courts decision)

For the people wondering, you would first overdose on water(not surprised on that, with all the crap we put into our "treated" waters...) than on '___', also the official research done in 1996, .pdf also.

This brings to the question, since it has been legalized in the US, could this substance not be discussed more openly then?

reply to post by jrmay77cr



Well Ayauasca is already in the UK and used by shamans in the UK. The trouble is that is happening is that the west will habitually degrade the mystical or shamanic aspects and just have another recreational drugs.

For those that don't know all of the key shamanic stuff can be done without drugs. I just believe that people are hiding behind Ayuasca. How often does each Shamanic worker take it per year in South America?

Also what is the purity of the '___' or will the profit motive drive people to adulterate it with rat poison??

Finally

Yes I am a lefty and I do not approve of drugs. Those who approve of drugs tend to be highly procapitalism!

reply to post by tiger5


You can't really adulterate the substance...

It doesn't require a binding agent like other substances as it is not processed into pill form. The final product is a crystalline substance that is smoked using a butane torch or something similar as the substance has to be vaporized in order to be inhaled in a high enough dose to bring about the experience.

Also, using it for a recreational purpose, while being disrespectful, is just going to expose people to something that is so powerful they will soon learn that respect. Honestly, I can't see a problem with people using since we all do every night when we go to sleep.

reply to post by SevenThunders


What religion induced separatism and instituted paranoia is better or healthier than a natural substance?

I really don't think so pal. Go back over history and work up to the present, and add up the amount of human lives snuffed out in the name of dogmatic religion.

Think how many died during the many religious crusades, how many during the inquisitions, how many native peoples died while soldier missionaries were binging them the 'good news' that they were about to be saved, right before they were slaughtered by the soldiers, or by the plagues they brought with them.

Find out how many Arabs and Jews have and are still dying due to their religious beliefs of superiority and destiny.

How many ordinary folk have been compelled to arms, with 'god at their side' as their rallying cry.

Don't forget to add all the nuts that have been driven insane with talk of imaginary demons and evil stalking them at every turn, who subsequently snap with an automatic weapon or three and slaughter those they consider to be evil or demons in disguise.

How many lives have been controlled..how many families have been torn apart due to religious condemnation of differences among them..i could write ALL day and ALL night at how terribly bad religion and it's effects is on our history, our present and our future.

And you consider it a 'safe' alternative...that's so hypocritical it is almost spew worthy.

reply to post by tiger5


Personally, i think this is not a left or right political issue.

My own opinion is that it is totally irrelevant whether you approve of drugs (do you include the pharmaceuticals that kill hundreds of thousands of people per year in 'drugs'?) or you don't, it's also irrelevant whether I myself approve or disapprove of them...However i do feel strongly that adult individuals have the right to do anything they wish to their own bodies, providing no other individual is being harmed directly as a result.

I believe the governments of the world, have two duties in this area.

One is to ensure there is a plethora of factual, honest, unbiased and non partisan information regarding available to all. This should highlight potential downsides, dangers, reliable sources, purity information, safe practices, and so on, but it should also include the benefits, the effects, reports by others, and project an equal and non propagandized version of events.

The other duty of government as i see it, is to uphold an individual adult persons right to do exactly with his or her body as they wish. To ingest anything they wish, and to experience any substance they wish as is their right, being the sole 'owner' of their bodies, of their minds and of their futures, and more importantly the one who has the sole and ultimate decision to partake or not.

Issuing propaganda and punitive punishments for those that decide to exercise sovereignty over their own bodies, if not fulfilling either criteria and drives the issues underground with all the negative baggage that carries, and obscures factual knowledge regarding a substance or substances and their effects.

A left or right wing government is irrelevant to the obligation of these duties to the population.

There are social issues that would need to be addressed and legislated, such as driving under the influence, going to work under the influence, and so on, but these are secondary and easily addressable issues.

Dangerous pursuits or sports where people die or are very seriously injured and incapacitated every year, or not only deemed an individuals choice but place great demands on our societies in terms of special care, hospitalizations and aftercare..these are not only perfectly legal, but in many areas are actively encouraged.

The levels of societal hypocrisy are astounding sometimes i find.

It's a very intriguing drug... or natural chemical in the environment i.e. plants and animals, including humans.

I don't know how many of you are aware of the fact that there has been a huge production underway of a documentary about '___'. It is called The Spirit Molecule, and Joe Rogan is like the host of the show.



It is actually available to be pre-ordered on DVD now, through a KickStarter project. Depending on your "backing", you can also receive a limited edition DVD, t-shirt and poster. Pledging for just the DVD itself is only $15. If you're interested in ordering it, click here --> goo.gl...