North Carolina's Shocking Legal Rape Law

reply to post by greeneyedleo


I am boggled that a woman can say yes, a man has a reasonable expectation that if he penetrates he is NOT committing a crime, she changes her mind, he continues (assuming she is not fighting him off and he is not violent) anyway no I dont think that should be clased as rape.

If she says no and he uses violence to finish well that is a crime, but is it rape anymore since she said yes, or is it what it is, assault and battery?

I don't know why my stance is mind boggling, I am not advocating anyone being forced to have sex against their will.

I do see a lot of grey areas in these kinds of snerios, and barring bruising and broken bones, how can rape even be proven? If both parties ar eagreeing the sex began consentually, then one changed their mind and claims rape, the judge is going to be expecting physical proof, or it is going to look like she is being vengeful against an innocent man in some cases!

But she said yes, is this not a misrepresentation? No means no, but yes means maybe? That is confusing.

Not necissarily, you dont know if she said no straight afterwards or 15 minutes into it. I'll give you a good example.
Say your going to go buy a burrito and you absolutely HATE onions. The person that is making you a burrito puts onion on it because he assumed you wanted onions, you object to the onions and he takes them off. because if he dosent its bad customer service.
Say you were not watching him and he put the onions on and half way through eating it you notice the onions. You go up and complain because he didnt ask if you wanted onions and he gives you a new one out of good customer service.
How this relates to rape?
Say you want to have sex, but he starts to get agressive and that is NOT what you asked for so you say no. So he should stop. (out of good customer service haha )
or 15 minutes in he starts to get really rough. you were fine with what you were having before but this makes you feel extremely uncomfortable, so you say get off and he continues. That there is rape.
either scenario is the same ultimately, you are not getting what you want/asked for.
Just because you give consent to sex, does not mean you are giving them consent to do whatever they want to you.

What is with my food analogies? Must be hungry

reply to post by Banjamin Jefferson Madiso


You raise some valid points form a male pov that should go toward the confusing aspect of the grey area in the debate. Thanks foradding your point to the conversation.

I am boggled that a woman can say yes, a man has a reasonable expectation that if he penetrates he is NOT committing a crime, she changes her mind, he continues (assuming she is not fighting him off and he is not violent) anyway no I dont think that should be clased as rape.

So you are saying that as long as he is not being violent he can do as he pleases?
What if she feels dirty, uncomfortable, guilty, like shes going to fast with him ect.
Either way, if someone says stop you stop. Its that simple.
It would be alot more easier to understand if guys were asking us to stop too but im pretty sure that often isnt the case.
You dirty people. hahaha

Originally posted by OmiOra
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

This says if it is accomplish with the womans consent....if she consents how is it rape?

That is the debate!

reply to post by ljtg123


Thank you, that was a sweet thing to ay to me, I appreciate it. No matter how old they get (I got two teens) I am still going to worry about them!

reply to post by Kailassa


That was my lme attempt at humor, I apologize for the flop.

And this five second rule is another shade of grey in my opinion. Is there a stop watch involved? And who came up with the five seconds? Is five seconds of rape ok but six seconds is not?

reply to post by littlecloud


Thank you your thoughts, and for understanding the purpose of my thread!

I do think we have managed to have a decent discussion with only minor irritations thus far. Six pages is a lot and we have only had a couple of spats. It could be much worse.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Oh yes I know its a miracle! Some guy on another thread absolutely ripped into me whilst declaring my thoughts on the government, maybe i misunderstood free speech..
Either way, I doubt there is going to be any clear right or wrong answers/opinions on this topic, Its just that broad. But we are getting there

IF a woman tells you to do it and you are doing it and you are hurting her. and she says stop.. number 1 she is letting you do it to her she still has a right to tell you to stop.. Not stopping is rape.. Its the act of sex. During the act of sex why shouldnt someone not have the right to tell the other to stop? One could look at it as not rape since she consented to sex and then couldnt handle what she was given but what jerk continues if the girl tells him to stop she is hurting him.. I think this is a bad call on the part of the system and judge..

Rape is primarily about control. Here we have
a woman who is taking complete control over
her body in everyway she see's fit to do so.

If she wants to bring someone to her bed and
change her mind 30 seconds or ten minutes
in; she is in control.

But now the State once more has to reassert
its dominance over a womans body. If this
is allowed to stand how a woman dresses will
again become a legitimate target in rape trials
as well as past history.

I saw personally what a trial could do to a
survivor of a sexual attack. She thought that
was almost as bad as the attack itself.

A womans control is their choice.

Originally posted by Banjamin Jefferson Madiso
OK heres a grey area situation.
Non-specific female knows non-specific male, and knows non-specific male has the hots for her. She asks the male to do her a favor, the type or scope of which is unimportant. He agrees to perform the favor only if she agrees to have sex with him, this of course means that he gets to complete the act with her. She agrees, he performs the favor. As she is fulfilling her part of the deal, she decides for no particular reason other than she only wanted to get him to do his part, that she does not want to honor the bargain that was made and allow him to complete, and she says for him to stop. If he does not stop, should that be considered rape?

Or what about a prostitute who has already been paid, who decides that she doesnt wish to continue...Should she issue a raincheck or a refund?

Yes, it's rape, in either case.

In scenario one, the girl could be guilty of trickery, which is not a crime.
The guy might also be guilty of brutality. Let's face it, some guys get off on hurting girls, some guys are too big for some girls, a girl who is not turned on may need lubrication and go through too much pain without it, she might have assumed he'd use a condom and he refuses, the guy might feel be still going strong after 4 hours and she's exhausted, the guy might feel weird practices she objects too are part of sex, ...

Depending on the government's attitude to barter, if taken to court they could possibly be charged with prostitution and soliciting a prostitute.

Don't forget, it's exactly the same if the sexes are reversed.
If you agreed to supply sex in exchange for something, and when the man or woman undressed his/her hairy belly flopped down to her knees, his/her hair and teeth landed on the bedside table, and what he/she did was not only repulsive but unbearably painful, you would have every right to say, "stop, I've had enough" too.
Not all rapes are men raping women, and men have a right to equal protection.



Your example of the prostitute saying no brings to mind a past aquaintance. I'll call him Jerry.

Jerry hated women. For his 50th birthday he decided to lose his virginity at a brothel which had brought Vietnamese girls into the country illegally to use as slave labour in the sex trade. These girls were very small, they looked like 12 year olds, according to what he told us. (Not that they were underage, you know how Asian girls can look very young.)
Jerry was someone always out to get more than he'd paid for, and he was hung like a donkey. He boasted that he always forced the girls to go for the whole hour he'd paid for, even though after half an hour they were sobbing and beggiing him to stop. Needless to say it only took 3 visits and he was banned from the brothel.

In revenge he reported the brothel to the police, (brothels, are legal here, but only if licenced and if the fulfiil certain conditions re health checks and condom use,) so the brothel owners retaliated by charging him with rape.
I'm sorry the case didn't go to court, I believe he'd have landed in jail. But the brothel-owners were persuaded to drop the charges.

If you were a male prostitute and a client was intentionally hurting you in a way that was possibly damaging your internal organs after you had told him/her to stop, would you want the law to protect you?

Or would you say, "I gave the client permission, so he/she has a right to do whatever he/she wants"?

Even if the girl is stupid enough to go to a guys apartment she barely knows and he rapes her. it is still rape.
He is put in a certain environment where rape is possible, and it tests his intentions.
He has the intention to rape, so it is rape nonetheless.

Where is the so called "Grey area"? I don't see it. If she and both parties consent in the beginning and their is penetration, and then she says NO!, STOP!, GET OFF ME!!, QUIT!! DON'T!!, I DON'T WANT YOU TO DO THIS TO ME!! any or all of these, then would you or would you not say it is against her will? If he continues regardless of the circumstances, it is defined as RAPE period! Black or white, no in between! No Grey!

If he chooses to continue then he needs to be held accountable for his actions. Rape is rape! Forcing someone to have sex AGAINST and I emphasize against their will constitutes the act of rape.

There does not need to be broken bones and/or bruises to determine if a rape took place. An exam will show forced entry, especially if there is a struggle.

I understand men can be falsely accused but in the state of NC it is clear this law clearly violates the rights of women. It will never hold up in court. If it does we are looking at a cut and dry case where criminals have more rights than victims. Proof beyond doubt that society has gone straight to Hell!

Pax

guys: best way to keep from getting caught up in this:
invest in porn and lube...noone can accuse you of rape then
yes its crude, but the law is so bent and twisted that there is no real way to fix it

i haven't read the whole thread yet.
But i do have to ask, this girl was 17 right?
what is the legal age of consent in NC?
if its 18 or over then her being 17 she couldn't have legally consented anyway! then the dad would be free to pursue statutory rape against the guy. But if she was old enough under NC law to give consent and she said no after penetration then the guy should have pulled out, let her calm down then the both of them decide if they are going to try again or just get dressed and take a cold shower.

people withdraw consent all the time on a variety of thing why shouldn't sex be one of those things that either party could withdraw their consent from after the act has started!

Originally posted by paxnatus
Where is the so called "Grey area"? I don't see it. If she and both parties consent in the beginning and their is penetration, and then she says NO!, STOP!, GET OFF ME!!, QUIT!! DON'T!!, I DON'T WANT YOU TO DO THIS TO ME!! any or all of these, then would you or would you not say it is against her will? If he continues regardless of the circumstances, it is defined as RAPE period! Black or white, no in between! No Grey!

The grey area is in the proof. How do we know she actually said stop? How do we know this wasn't just something she told her parents to avoid her father labelling her a sexual fiend? How could they prove the alleged rape in a courtroom? The alleged rape began as consensual, so how are they going to prove that consent was withdrawn at all? One side says she never said to stop, the other side's father says it did. I personally think this girl is laying in bed, crying every night -- not because she was raped -- because she had to screw over her boyfriend to "prove" to her father that she did not condone this violent sexual activity, and her father had to go and take over her whole life and get the government, and now the country, involved in her bedroom life.

Even if it's not the case, does this kid deserve to be locked up for up to 15 years? The sex was consensual, he did not deny the woman her right to choose her sexual partner, she already decided it was okay to have sex with him. When she experienced the pain of the "first time", she told him "No, no, no!" Now, this kid's sexual experience is most likely limitted to online porn, what does it mean in porn when they say "No, no, no!"? This could be very confusing for this teen, and its unfortunate that he's facing such serious charges and being compared to people who snatch women off of the street and have their way with them before beating them and throwing them on the curb. This case makes a mockery of the term "rape"; real victims of rape should be ashamed of the way people to respond to this incidence as rape, because they have had to deal with infinitely more than this girl.

Furthermore, isn't labelling this as "rape" just creating more opportunities for certain women who loves exploiting people to get the government involved in their ploy to procure "compensation" from those who have earned it? Really, these accusations ruined Michael Jackson and nobody decided to defend the "freakshow" until he died and we realized he was too screwed up on drugs to even get an erection. The "rape" card ruins lives, and this incidence insults the REAL victims.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Therein would lie the Burden of Proof. If the man could prove beyond reasonable doubt that the woman did in face give consent, then the rape is negated. Once given, the consent cannot be taken back again. This would be entrapment, and sadly, many women do this even today. Here is the thing, girls, if you do not want to have sex with someone, don't pussy foot around, be honest and forthright and say so, before anything goes too far to recover from.

I'm not sure if this has been covered already but there are good reasons for this law.

1. Unless there is a witness present (which obviously is unlikely), consensual physical penetration negates any physical evidence that can be brought forth by the prosecution.

2. Consenting to be penetrated automatically puts the case into a "he said, she said" neutral state with neither side being able to present any compelling evidence to the contrary.

While I obviously think that a woman has the right to withdraw consent at any moment, what must be considered is what can be PROVEN in a court.

Consensual penetration removes the ability of the prosecutor to prove anything.

-vaginal tearing
-broken hymen
-presence of semen
-bruising

would all be expected - and obviously there would be no torn clothing and any other DNA obtained could be expected to be there.

There's no way to prove that the entire episode wasn't consensual other than some video/audio tape or witness saying otherwise.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Note to self: never get drunk in NC.

But seriously though, I would agree with this if losing your virginity didn't hurt like hell. Young girls don't understand what they are agreeing too. I think a lot of virgin girls realize "#! this hurts!!! no way I love you enough to f***" And if the man kept going anyways- it would feel just like rape.