Bigfoot/Sasquatch Fact or Fiction?

reply to post by SLAYER69


First, Thank You Slayer69 for this excellent and well evidenced topic.

I've not personally had any encounters with a large hominid, but my older brother lived in Ketchikan, Alaska taking out parties of hunters. He had a few odd experiences he told me about, wood-knocking and such at night in the camp, which peaked my interest in bigfoot.

I believe they exist: too many well documented and investigated sightings exist on BFRO to all be hoaxes or miss-understandings of what was seen, by too many very credible witnesses. Then there is the Patterson film.

I strongly doubt the relatively recent "revelation" of Phill Morris in N.C. - it is too self-serving for a guy who makes cheap rubber and vinyl costumes.

Many experts have analyzed this film, including acclaimed Hollywood special fx artists and the former director of the Smithsonian's Primate Biology Program, and have concluded that it is no hoax, and that it shows an unknown species of primates.

The muscles rippling under the skin and the sway of those pendulous breasts (BTW - they IS some BIGGUNS!) is just too detailed for a cheap suit maker.

Thanks again Slayer and great work!


EDIT: BTW, try going to Morris's site a searching for a bigfoot costume - there are none - you'd think he'd sell them if he had actually made them..

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Originally posted by Redhead6971
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

With Bigfoot there has never been recovered any bodies, skull, carcas, bone, and no fossils except for extinct ape species. No in between or crossover human ape fossils have been found either except for lineage fossils recovered in Africa and extinct ape species across parts of Asia. In North America, there has never been found the remains of any type of ape, ever. That should be your biggest clue right there. Nope, Bigfoot was probably created to keep people out of the backwoods area of the Pacific Northwest so other people could engage in various neferious activities.

Understood completely.

After having investigated "Bigfoot", "aliens", and "U.F.O.s", almost my entire life I am now skeptical.

Without a body, an encounter, or an actual saucer I'm not buying anything in these fields.

As per my original post and subsequent ones I know exactly what is in those isolated areas.

And it's not a 7 or 8 foot "creature" scaring the crap out of hikers.

Government facilities.

If I ever see any real proof, not speculation, not hearsay, not grainy photos or videos I will be the first to admit I was wrong, as I have the ability to admit I am incorrect, because I know I'm not perfect, I know there are unexplained things, events, and happenings out there but I am someone who has to see it for myself, put my hands on it, and experience it.

I trust no one and never will.

Especially in regards to this particular genre.

If you'd visit the BFRO site, you'd see sightings are far from limited to the Pacific Northwest, and check any of the hunter sites for that region and you'd see that if someone is trying to scare people away, they are doing a poor job of it.

There is no conspiracy, there's just credible witnesses seeing what the former director of the Smithsonian's Primate Biology Program called "A new and unknown species".

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Originally posted by Redhead6971
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

With Bigfoot there has never been recovered any bodies, skull, carcas, bone, and no fossils except for extinct ape species. No in between or crossover human ape fossils have been found either except for lineage fossils recovered in Africa and extinct ape species across parts of Asia. In North America, there has never been found the remains of any type of ape, ever. That should be your biggest clue right there. Nope, Bigfoot was probably created to keep people out of the backwoods area of the Pacific Northwest so other people could engage in various neferious activities.

Understood completely.

After having investigated "Bigfoot", "aliens", and "U.F.O.s", almost my entire life I am now skeptical.

Without a body, an encounter, or an actual saucer I'm not buying anything in these fields.

As per my original post and subsequent ones I know exactly what is in those isolated areas.

And it's not a 7 or 8 foot "creature" scaring the crap out of hikers.

Government facilities.

If I ever see any real proof, not speculation, not hearsay, not grainy photos or videos I will be the first to admit I was wrong, as I have the ability to admit I am incorrect, because I know I'm not perfect, I know there are unexplained things, events, and happenings out there but I am someone who has to see it for myself, put my hands on it, and experience it.

I trust no one and never will.

Especially in regards to this particular genre.

One must consider that these creatures (Gigantopithecus giganteus and Gigantopithecus Blacki) might have also crossed over to North America via the ice/land bridge during the last Ice Age. Just as the humans did. I think they would have been better suited to survive such a migration with their hairy bodies, amazing speed, and great strength. There may not have been apes or monkeys in North America, but there are New World monkeys in Central and South America. So how did they get there? Here is an interesting excerpt from wikipedia as to how the New World Monkeys traveled from Africa:

About 40 million years ago the Simiiformes infraorder split into parvorders Platyrrhini (New World monkeys—in South America) and Catarrhini (apes and Old World monkeys—in Africa).[9] The Platyrrhini are currently conjectured to have migrated across the Atlantic Ocean to South America on a raft of vegetation similar to the vast pieces of floating mangrove forest that storms occasionally break off from the tropical African coast.[10] At that time, the Atlantic Ocean was less than the present 2,800 km (1,700 mi) wide by about a third; possibly 1,000 km less, based on the current estimate of the Atlantic mid-ocean ridge formation processes spreading rate of 25 mm/year.

My hunch tells me the old Gigantopithecus ancestor of Bigfoot/ Sasquatch most likely trekked over the land bridge between Asia and North America. Most of the sightings are concentrated in the Pacific Northwest/ Alaska/ Canada which is not too far away from that ancient land bridge.

reply to post by neo96


go over to bigfootencounters.com and read through all of the first hand encounters people have submitted from all across the united states, canada and other countries. A good number of the submissions are from hunters and individuals experienced in the bush and can distinguish between a bear and other animals. The evidence is there.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
That's a fair assessment.

Still think you're wrong though

I too want to see proof. Dead carcass, Hair samples that do no match any other primate. Skull or one captured.

Destination truth obtained a hair sample which didn't match any of the known animals, although no one will ever believe it anyways unless they see the dead body first hand, and even then they would probably deny it. I would rather these creatures remain undetected. The only reason they are not extinct is because most don't believe they are out there..Mankind has never been the kindest to animals, and the only thing that will come out of this will be some sasquatch in a zoo behind bars, to rake in money.

If everyone realized, skeptics included, that there are creatures that are unknown roaming the forests everywhere, I think we'd be off to a good start.

But, sad to say it, without resources to do an actual full-on investigation with lots of money, I don't think civilians will ever find one.

People don't have enough compassion to research this to the fullest because it won't create money.
There would be media hype at first, like always, but I don't believe there's enough serious attention for a capture.
Dead or alive.

I would be willing to bet that if there was a serious investigation in the Northwest...
...there would be more physical evidence.

So without an actual personal sighting, everyone will be skeptical.

Then again, people don't really care about finding Bigfoot these days...

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

They would almost have to be migratory, given their size and probable dietary requirements... As for their nocturnal nature? I agree...though it's more by choice, I think... They want to avoid a predator that is their equal, at the least. Meaning us.

They have to know we're lethal...they've intelligence enough to know that where we appear, death follows. Morbid, perhaps, but true.

I agree. Let's look at the [Stench] they give off. Is it just a case of bad BO? or is it a semi defense/mating pheromone to attract others of their kind? Nocturnal would be the way to go it would explain why there are only occasional sightings during daylight.

Avoiding predators? There isn't too much out there that could possibly scare an 800 to 1000lb giant outside of a full grown brown bear IMO.

edit on 2-10-2010 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

If you study the subject of scent glands on primates and apes, it could be inferred that Bigfoot may have the same mechanism to communicate this way in order to warn or leave a scent trail for other Bigfoot. Apes have this same mechanism: (from SeaWorld.org):

GLANDS 1. Adult male gorillas have large apocrine (scent) glands in their armpits that produce a pungent odor when excited or stressed. Gorillas have apocrine (scent) and eccrine (sweat) glands that lubricate the palms of their hands and soles of their feet.

In addition, primates and even humans when stressed out or terrified will produce instantaneous diarrhea. If you read some of the sightings reports on Bigfoot websites, people have reported a smell akin to skunk, musty body odor, hot garbage and soiled baby diapers.
I'm glad I didn't have instantaneous diharrhea when I had my sighting. It would have been embarrassing to confront my friends back at the campsite.

reply to post by univac500


hahaha. that movie was called robot monster. and it truly was a monster of a movie.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I have always wondered about that particular film that they say was fake. And you want to know why people think this and other pics of strange creatures and UFO's are false, it's because your rational mind is in conflict with what you have been taught or believe. Imagine a gigantopythasus is walking down the sidewalk in front of your house. You will automatically say that it's fake or some type of stunt, but somewhere in the back of your mind your uneasy. Remember just because we are consciously working our senses, they are working. And something is making us uneasy. A sense of dread, intimidation, the sensory Q's that the animal/being are giving off are telling you one thing but your mind is saying something else. That is why when we see that "man in an ape suite" walking in the forest back in the 60's, we are so ready to dismiss it because we say in many ways it can't be. But what the ones that believe that it's a man in a suite never comment about is how these two individuals could buy such a sophisticated ape suite back in the 60's (there really wasn't a market for an ape suit to be as real as possible, they were mostly used as joke gags). Two, the "person in the suit" when turning to look at the camera did it once and turned not just his neck but his upper body like an ape or even the Gigantopythasus might do. Three how would the the man in the "suit" no body mechanics of a different species to be able to fake said gait, movement and proper weight indenture from the feet. Back around this time there may have been a handful of people that had a good grasp of this in the science.

Two back wood guys managed to not only get an apelike suit but to get one that seems to have breast and other body areas that are padded and bunched up in the correct places that an ape man would have if it walked on 2 legs. And then they got lucky when decades later they have mimicked the correct body movements also. I think that for decades we have witnessed a film of a true Gigantopythasus female and/or a relative of that species.

reply to post by SLAYER69



Great post. I am a believer in armadillos, ostriches, and bigfoot.

You asked about Yowies. Here is a good source for them: www.yowiehunters.com.au...

The history of Bigfoot is not modern. There are cave drawing of the hairy man that are very old.
bigfoot101.proboards.com...
There are tribes from all over the states and many groups in foreign countries that have historys, legends and ancient accounts of these creatures. I don't think that isolated groups that are so diverse would develop similar stories.

I am always a little leary of revelations from folks after the person they are debunking is not longer available to give a rebuttal.

Yes, panic can set in out in the woods, but most folks who would be out there in the middle of the night aren't given to panic. You who don't believe the stories, have you been in the woods? Not just for a night of hunting, but were you familiar with night sounds of the forest? The reason that some people are better at having sightings just have better "woodscraft" skills.

Humans have a very strong smell. We don't notice it, but animals sure so. They lurking in a tree stand instead of at ground level. Patterson was on a horse. He was above ground level and the horse masked his odor.

I know that we are all waiting for a body, but there are serious researchers working with DNA samples. They can't match unknown DNA to any known primate, but there are samples in existance. Hopefully the results will be out soon. Of course, they won't say that it's a bigfoot, just present the facts of the DNA profile.

reply to post by havok


I'm not sure people realize just how large the forrests are in North America.
Northern California, Oregon and Washington state. Not to mention Cananda.

reply to post by SLAYER69


You can think I'm wrong all you want buddy.

I'm going to think you're wrong.

I know you and I disagree but there's nothing to say we're both right or both wrong either.

When and if evidence surfaces I have to see it with my own eyes.

Let us hope that proof of this being real or even a hoax surfaces in our lifetimes.

reply to post by LadySkadi


I do not see a probably about it.

I see there is a definite pattern of money spent, time spent, and projects running.

This book is sitting in my Amazon shopping cart waiting for money to buy it.

It's an engineering book about building facilites underground.

I have other books on this but this is by far the most elaborate.

Underground Space Design: Part 1: Overview of Subsurface Space Utilization Part 2: Design for People in Underground Facilities

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/15676471bfdb.jpg[/atsimg]

Amazon Review :

Underground space development may be one of the most significant was to contend with urban predicaments such as congestion, lack of open space, and aging infrastructures.

However, designers must consider whether or not people will be willing to live and work in what could be perceived as inhospitable environments.

Should people be required to work in underground facilities, Or should underground space be used solely for mechanical or transit services and low-occupancy functions such as storage?

What must designers do to create subsurface spaces that will avoid or alleviate the psychological and physiological problems associated with being underground?

Underground Space Design is the first comprehensive book on subsurface space utilization throughout the world.

The authors supply a complete overview of the entire range of underground uses by reflecting on the past, present, and future of underground development.

Underground Space Design is the result of a five-year joint research study by the Underground Space Center at the University of Minnesota and the Shimizu Institute of Technology in Japan.

This thorough, scholarly, and practical source offers extensive coverage of the relevant topics including:

* an analysis of current underground land use
* the future of underground development
* comprehensive set of classifications
* a summary of existing research on psychological issues
* exterior and entrance design patterns
* layout and spatial configuration patterns
* interior design patterns
* methods of lighting
* life safety design patterns

Elaborately designed and illustrated, this book is the first complete source to present the broad range of underground design and uses, making it an ideal reference for architects, interior designers, civil engineers, geotechnical engineers, city planners, developers, and environmental psychologists.

Underground Space Design is also an excellent introduction to the field, precisely serving the needs of students and other professionals.

Most people who would hide out in the woods seeking sighting of "Bigfoot" are likely to die out there.

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


I've never said the sightings were limited to the Northwest regions of America.

That was other people, re-read my original post, I mention "Bigfoot", "Sasquatch", the "Yeti", the "Yowie".

Even the "Skunk Ape".

I still see them all as elaborate hoaxes and or perpetrated fraud.

And your definition of "credible witnesses" differs from mine I assure you.

I could care less if President Barack Obama witnessed it.

I'd want to see the body, dead, or alive.

reply to post by Kratos40


Of course.

One must consider many options.

The "alleged" origins of "Bigfoot" might also be linked to the "Missing Link".

Who knows.

Considering it, believing it, and even admitting I believe that are three very different things.

Websites, books, and hearsay stories are not going to convince me anymore.

I've grown past that and did that quite a long time ago.

An actual sighting, or even being attacked by one, surviving it or not is the only thing to convince me.

That or a body to examine.

I am open-minded enough to examine stories, books, and websites, even admitting I was wrong if it is proven.

I am however closed off to it being pushed upon me.

Not that you or anyone else is necessarily doing that.

My stepfather was a Marine, during the Vietnam War, he taught me there are certain things you never quantify without putting your hands on, eyeballing, or even tracking down the specific information for yourself due to the nature of each person's perception, overall ability to critically and neutrally investigate, and or lack thereof, and or because they might not be ground in reality.

Originally posted by The-Hammer
reply to post by havok

 

I'm not sure people realize just how large the forrests are in North America.
Northern California, Oregon and Washington state. Not to mention Cananda.

Even out here in Arizona, the forests that we have can be quite extensive. A lot of people get lost or go missing around our state forests. You would think that Arizona is all desert, but we do have quite dense forests around here. Our mountain ranges could very well be a side chain of the Pacific Crest Trail. So you can imagine what large unknown creatures could reside in places such as the Olympic Peninsula with its rich vegetation and then migrate along such corridor as the seasons change. As a visual as to what we have here in AZ, I include an aerial view of one of my favorite camping sites and the site of an auditory experience I had of one of these creatures. I only request that you stay away from here. This is my favorite place to get away from humanity:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1f937ea3faf1.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Interesting mystery, but the problem I have is where are all the rotting bigfoot carcasses? They can't live forever, and living in forests, I'm sure they've crossed paths with bears at some point in time. I can only see 1 reason for this and it's pretty far-fetched... they're visitors from another dimension or world. If these things are 7ft tall their skeletons shouldn't be that difficult to find. Anyone have an answer to why we never found a bigfoot carcass?

My opinion is that the Bigfoot are real. Too many sightings have been reported. Sightings from all over the United States, Canada, Australia, Asia, Russia, etc. My consideration of the topic has taken years and includes books, films and interviews with many researchers and witnesses. Too many credible people have reported seeing them.

To fathom their possible existence may mean to think outside the box. They might not simply be animals living in remote areas like bears. They are creatures with intelligence and able to read minds and disappear when need be to avoid capture and detection. Whether they have powers of invisibility or they can disappear into dimensional portals, it's hard to say, but that's why you don't see a skeletons laying around. They take care of one another and don't leave each other alone. I have heard they can travel with the help of space ships and some type of aliens help look after their well being.

There is much to this earth that is not covered in standard text books. There is much to our reality that is way outside the bounds of how most people perceive things and want to look at things. But as I said at the beginning this is only my opinion.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Actually, I do not consider this creature to be a "missing link" in the hominid evolutionary tree. My research and observations lead me to conclude that they are from the Orangutan lineage. They exist because of the combination of divergent and parallel evolution. Divergent evolution is the most commonly known of the three types of evolution. It involves one species that eventually separates into two separate species. For example, a flock of migratory birds, heading for a warmer climate, gets divided in a storm. One half of the flock continues on to the original destination. The other half lands on a new island, and decides to stay (ie Puffins). Over time, they develop characteristics that allow them to better survive on the island (Iceland), and become a different species from their ancestors who were initially separated from the larger flock. What was once one species has now been separated into two. Convergent and parallel evolution are very similar, and are easily confused. When two separate species in the same environment develop the same adaptations for survival, it is called parallel evolution. Such as the strange "Samurai chatter" people have recorded. This type of evolution begins with two similar species that exist in similar environments. Over time, these species will evolve in very similar ways. But in this case since we are dealing with an ape creature that originated from Africa, there had to be some residual gene sequence that would have facilitated the Bigfoot into a prone position of walking and even developing language from what we can hear from the "Samurai Chatter" recordings. And the pattern of migration of hominids and perhaps that of Gigantophithecus. The Gigantophitecus fossils were discovered in Northern India and in Northern China:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/38a851fb8038.gif[/atsimg]

As per the BFRO site, they present a nice visual of the family tree, and thus agrees with my correlations as to where these creatures come from in terms of evolution:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/75dc6cfd66f6.gif[/atsimg]

reply to post by mamabeth


I found the video clip for that episode that I watched.
www.associatedcontent.com...

I have seen one face to face & I know that they are real. He didn't look anything like an ape, but more like a huge, hairy human with a pug nose. He had as much intelligence in his eyes as we do.

There have been hairy humans all the way back to Bible times.
Gen.25:25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

Some were even kings.
osareal.com...

To add to my witness statement of observing such creature and to the personal messages I have received, I would like to add to the following picture of the dimensions of the individual that I saw in the Kaibab:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/be0f5a145e36.jpg[/atsimg]

I am 5 ft 9 in. This thing towered over me at a distance of 20 feet approximately. But it seemed it was more scared of me than me of it, even though I thought it was going to turn around and destroy me. Flight or Fight response did not come through here. I stood still thinking this thing was going to turn around and kill me. It literally ran through trees, because I could hear the branches/ trunks breaking. It takes tremendous power to do such a thing.

I have a theory that can explain why this is both not a hoax and also not a different species. She may be a human woman with a genetic disease that is a variation of hypertrichosis.

"This "curse of the hair" could be caused by a primeval gene stemming from our animal ancestors. Scientists believe that many of these primeval genes still lie dormant in the human genome, and that they have simply been switched off during the course of evolution. A mutation in the victims of hypertrichosis could have led to such a gene being awakened from its million-year slumber." - www.spiegel.de...

Perhaps in her case several primitive genes were affected, giving her this large ape-like appearance. The above link mentions that females with this disease have found it more difficult to adapt in society than their male counterparts. Maybe she decided to live as a recluse in the wilderness, and possibly the makers of this footage realized this and that is why they now claim it's a hoax.