Buddhism's belief in 'no self'

I recently had the opportunity to speak with a very wise Buddhist monk, and when he asked me what are some of my dilemma's or confusions about Buddhism's philosophies I mentioned two things: the reality of Nirvana and the theory of 'no self' (illusion of the 'self). I would like to share his explanation of 'no self' with you all, to maybe both better your understanding insofar as hear your feedback about it.

He started by saying: "Touch this book. Now touch this table... Look around the room and notice the walls, the paintings, the colors... Listen to the birds outside singing. Listen to the wind coming through the window... Take a deep breath through your nose and smell the incense that are burning." "Now one must say that all these objects, noises, and smells are real, that they are in fact there, because they are. We cannot say that these things do not exist, because they do."

"Now touch your nose and your hair. Here touch my hand. These are all real are they not?"

I quietly responded "Yes."

He continued, "Tell me your name and when you do, listen to the sound your voice makes."

"My name is Matthew." I said.

He went on, "Right, and so the sound your voice created is real, is it not?"

"Yes." I said.

He again continued, "Now since you are able to walk and since you are able to conversate with me, you obviously must also be able to think, right? And so your thoughts must also be real, are they not?"

"Yes, they must be." I replied.

"And I see you are dressed in some 'hip' clothes with some interesting shoes , and you talk in a certain way that is somewhat different than many of your peers, and you are very compassionate unlike some other humans, so you have a unique style you could say, and you may consider this all a part of your own personality, would you not?"

A little thrown off by his 'hip' comment, I somewhat shamefully replied, "Umm, I guess so. I mean yea, you are definitely right, I would consider this my style or personality traits."

Smiling, he then asked me, "Good! So now tell me which of these things would you label as your 'self'? Would you say your 'self' is your body? Would you say it is your voice? Would you say it is your thoughts? Or would you say it is your style or personality?"

Very confused at this point, but still trying to come off as wise , I said, "Well, maybe it is a little bit of all of them."

He again smiled as if he knew I would say something to that effect, and replied, "Ok, well let me ask you this, did you look the same as you do now, 15 years ago? Did your voice sound the same then as it does now? Did you always think the same way as you do now? Did you always dress this way and have the same style?"

I replied, "No, of course not."

He continued, "Then you have changed, and these things that you have labeled as your 'self' have changed. So if what you currently perceive as your 'self' is not the same as what you once before perceived as your 'self' then what can you label as the 'self'?"

Somewhat understanding of what he was saying, but still confused, I replied, "Right, but just like my appearance, my voice, my thoughts and my style, couldn't my 'self' be real but also have changed just like them?"

He responded, "Ah, you are indeed very wise. So again I ask you what would you define as your 'self'?"

"Umm... I guess it would also have to be an ever changing thing." I said. "Right?" I then asked him.

"You are a smart young man, and I assure you that if you contemplate further you will find your answer. I do not mind helping you find the path, but in the end it is something you must find an answer to on your own. Go home and meditate on this, and come back whenever you like. I am always here."

And that was it! I was like a fish begging to be set back in water, and he just left me out to dry! Now I definitely need to contemplate on this further, but I do kinda understand what he was getting at, however I would really appreciate any insights you may have on this. Thanks for reading!

You can never expalin the "self" because it is always changing, like the wind, like the ocean waves.

or better yet, the self isn't real and yet it is; such as the yin and yang balance.

Originally posted by adkchamp
You can never expalin the "self" because it is always changing, like the wind, like the ocean waves.

So, in your opinion, does this make it real or not? An illusion or not?

or better yet, the self isn't real and yet it is; such as the yin and yang balance.

How can it be real and not real, at the same time? I don't understand that, can you explain what you meant further?

Thanks.

I am thinking that he was demonstrating that all of the "ideas" that you define yourself by are not permanent, thus not really you... ?
You are not your clothes, your voice, your thoughts...
What you are cannot be defined.. Who are you then? Our perceptions are all but sparks inside our skulls... Ahhh, but who "sees" the sparks? Can that "awareness" be defined?
Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that. But I am sure someone will come along that does.

Thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy

So, in your opinion, does this make it real or not? An illusion or not?

How can it be real and not real, at the same time? I don't understand that, can you explain what you meant further?

Originally posted by 5MaveN5
I am thinking that he was demonstrating that all of the "ideas" that you define yourself by are not permanent, thus not really you... ?
You are not your clothes, your voice, your thoughts...
What you are cannot be defined.. Who are you then? Our perceptions are all but sparks inside our skulls... Ahhh, but who "sees" the sparks? Can that "awareness" be defined?
Unfortunately, I don't have the answer to that. But I am sure someone will come along that does.

That's it, you were naming your clothes, who you are and etc. which is really the illusion "self", it exists because you and another can see that; but in spirituality it is not there. Only the ego sees that...which is directed as self sometimes.

And your light, the driver is the real self, and to another, all he/she can do is only knows thiers, therefore an answer to yourself is only within you and only you may find it.

The self, as we define it, exists in on this plane alone; we are pilots in mortal vessels shaped by our realities, our existences.

Peoples opinions differ because of varying degrees of experience and education, in different circumstances we may all have been different people. Thus the "self" as we understand it is only as fleeting as our earthly lives. Even if you believe we go 'round again as I do, our greater understanding comes from rediscovery (a sort of calling out to our higher consciousness to build upon a foundation) in each life, not directly from previous existences.

We are clean slates each time we hit this world, so the self, is merely a construct that exists with us on this plane.






In my opinion.

reply to post by 5MaveN5


Yes, this is also what I believe he was hinting at. Good stuff!

Rene Descartes famously stated, "I think, therefore I am." But this makes no sense.

When I refer to myself as "I" or as "me" or "my", then who or what am I referring to? My body? My thoughts? My clothes? My voice? Will not all these things one day cease to exist?

Does this not mean that "I" am not any of these things? Therefore, how do "I" exist?

Is this perception of "myself" as an individual then not all just an illusion?

Hold on, now I am getting lost again...

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


How about there is no real logic to explain the "self", but only to watch it, better yet to experience it.

Because that's what the ego "self" wants, proof. But it cannot see because it is an illusion, sort like a world created in your head.

Science confused faith and now we must find it (answer).

adkchamp and eNumbra:

I like what both of you wrote and I agree. I will have to contemplate on this further though as I am not fully actualizing it right now.

So if "I" as in reference to the 'self' is just that, an illusion, that doesn't mean "I" am in fact "You" and "You" are in fact "Me", right? I believe in oneness, but "I" am getting confused trying to actualize it's reality.

Thanks friends!

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


as i edited before...ego cannot understand the concept of "self".

Only "I am" and "you" can see it...it's like a hidden code.

"To bend the spoon, all you have to do is believe the spoon isn't there."

Your original post is very much the way I was taught to think about Zen meditation but just a little extended.

Once you get past the idea that your clothes / voice etc is not part of your self then you can start to move to the deeper parts of you.

Sit in a silent room and try not to think, you will notice that however hard you try thoughts will still keep popping into your mind like, my legs hurt from sitting, I think I forgot to pay the phone bill etc etc You can then question where these thoughts are coming from as the part of you that you think of as yourself is trying not to think at all so it's not from there

You can then work on pushing these thoughts away

The boundaries of self is dependent on what function you are serving at a given time, the boundaries of ego are constantly inflating and deflating with your consciousness. If you happen to be driving then your ego merges with the vehicle that you are controling, if you are using a camera or computer, playing sports, etc, your ego merges with whatever function you are performing.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
So if "I" as in reference to the 'self' is just that, an illusion, that doesn't mean "I" am in fact "You" and "You" are in fact "Me", right?

In another life...

perhaps.

I found an image with a story written out on a it a few months back; found it interesting and relevant.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a2ac410234be.jpg[/atsimg]

The Self of what you called is your persona or mask you wear to carry yourself in this society. To be with the time. The Self, I mean THE SELF, the destination you have arrived after you have went through all the multiple selves. THE SELF is not something that changes constantly. THE SELF is who you are and who you are not at the same time. The SELF is the final destination for all life's paths. Nirvana??? Don't know. Not looking forward to it. I got this feeling by the the time you get and achieve it, you are probably become very distant from the world.

reply to post by eNumbra


Whoa! That was a great story! Can you PLEASE provide me a link for it? I would really like to print it out. THANKS A MILLION BROTHER! Or do I thank myself?

P.S. I like what all you guys/gals have wrote and agree. Thank you, kindly.

Oh and davespanners, I do regularly meditate, thank you for that advice. Actually it is getting late, I should do it now.

Peace

I've got a link to some info that might help you further - to me it is clearer and gives direction a bit better than the monk did, but it's certainly about the same thing- let me find it.....

www.rinpoche.com...

Boy it took me forever to find that, lol. Do hope it helps.
I found it very helpful myself.

Skip to page 4 if you are in a hurry, that begins to reference this same sort of practice.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


We are an astronomical amount of variables. I guess that makes us math.

The monk is wrong.

Just because a shoe gets scuffed and worn through, does that mean it is not real?
It's a real shoe when you buy it and it's still a real shoe when you chuck it in the garbage.

Your self changes constantly. A person with multiple personalities can have many "selves", (speaking from experience,) but they are all real.

Gradually, as you become more spiritual, your boundaries start to fade, so your self encompasses an ever growing region around you in space and time, resulting in new abilities surfacing.

Nirvana is when "you" expand so much you start feeling from within your deepest self, which is God.

Many Buddhists deny the existance of God, because the true God is nothing like the demanding gods of religions. The true God is your own ultimate self. Once you realise that you realise you are also all that exists, and that harming anyone, anything, is harming yourself.

The true god can be visualised as a spinning disco ball, made of billions of tiny mirrors. We are each a mirror, looking outwards, and, so long as we continue to look outwards, we will never know our true nature.

But that is what the game of life is all about, forgetting our true natures and struggling in the dark to make sense of the story we are born into, learning to love, to experience the illusion of separateness which allows god to give god companionship, to stretch ourselves by fighting for what is right, and to keep learning.

This is how a world becomes out of nothing; we are god, we are creating god, we are nothing, but we are the god we have created. All is, simultaneously, as time is but another illusion.

Comparing the human body and mind with a computer system, a robot with camera's as eyes, a speaker as vocal cords, a microphone as ears and some coating with a thermometer function as a skin and some sensors for smell and taste, this robot is connected to a pc (the brain) by wifi, this pc draws power from a solar panel. The OS would be like the mind, it programs itself by the input it receives from the robot and becomes more and more complicated as it becomes a new version over and over again.

However since there is nothing in the world that is a self, the robot could not sense it and send it to the computer, the OS cannot process what hasn't been send by the robot. Anything the OS would produce that describes a self would simply be pointing to different things, arranging them in some fasion. It would be like an opinion on something imaginary stated by that same imagined thing. It would be like the brain telling itself how it is like being a brain, which makes no sense when you think about it.

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Read all you can about Advaita Vedanta.

Yes the 'self' is not real, here's how:

The mind labels things, rock, tree, yours, mine, us, them, me, you, etc.....

But everything already just is and it is without labels. The Isness of everything. Even before there were humans to label 'things', there already was existence and the Isness of it minus the labels.
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Now the thought of something isn't the actual something. Like the thought of a rock on a beach it isn't actual, it is just imagination, compared to going to the beach and grabbing the rock.

So the thought of something isn't the actual something, so who you think you are, isn't who you are.
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You think you are; gender, name, age, culture, personality, style, likes, dislikes ....but that is all imagination, all thoughts, all with labels.
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Find out who you are that is not a thought. Also realize that the part of 'you' the looks for what is you that is not a thought, is also a thought.
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SOme have realized absolute truth in an hour of contemplating all this, some days, others weeks, some years, and others still in the last year of their lives.

Still if this contemplation of this is kept up, there will be 'glimpses' of the absolute truth and that will be motivation enough to realize that ego, the self, the I, is nothing but thoughts and therefore unreal.....

There is no self that can be found.... this is just what is, in the now, with no one doing any of it....