Hey look, atheists and agnostics are more knowledgeable about religion than theists....

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
From the Los Angeles Times

Atheists, agnostics most knowledgeable about religion, survey says

If you want to know about God, you might want to talk to an atheist. Heresy? Perhaps. But a survey that measured Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists and agnostics knew more, on average, than followers of most major faiths. In fact, the gaps in knowledge among some of the faithful may give new meaning to the term "blind faith."

Now this surprises me not because I had an inkling that it was true but because I'm confused as to how some people can hold a belief so strongly and not truly understand the history of that belief or what exactly that belief truly means.

What do the rest of you make of this?

edit on 9/28/10 by madnessinmysoul because: changed formatting

This may say a lot about people - at the bottom of the aritcle it says...

"For comparison purposes, the survey also asked some questions about general knowledge, which yielded the scariest finding: 4% of Americans believe that Stephen King, not Herman Melville, wrote "Moby Dick."

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Not surprising at all. Every time I ask a Christian to justify the morality in the Bible's "Story of Jepthah" the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

I think you are being a little extreme. I don't think you understand the context of that story and secondly you don't need to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying I don't, but the two are different things.

On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

You sound like a real nice person to get along with though, I'm sure you mix well in civilised company.... sooner or later.

Originally posted by davespanners
I think it's mainly because every time you tell someone your an atheist you have to spend 20 minutes justifying yourself and need the ammunition to do it with, so you have to know a decent amount about most religions.
Mostly if you tell someone your a Christian they just say.... "Ok then....." with no justifications needed

Just wanted to second that.

saying you are of (x) religion is a brainless task...saying you are agnostic and suddenly you are assulted by whatever flavor religion is in front of you with their scriptures, etc etc etc...eventually you get tired of it and so research exactly what they are talking about, research counterpoints, etc.

REPENT!!!
(or not...doesn't really matter..but might make ya feel better)

Originally posted by something wicked
On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

Dont know...20% dont know where America is on a map.



Such as

Doesn't surprise me...born and raised Christian. Baptism, Bible School, and two years of conformation produced someone who doesn't follow the Christian faith. And, as such, I have found other theistic beliefs interesting, and taken the time to research them a bit. A Bible-thumping Christain usually takes one or two messages away from the good-book, and clings to them with all the faith in the world, turning a blind-eye to everything else. People who do not wish to know will remain ignorant. Complete and absolute knowledge is the one thing that mankind should strive for...atheists are more likely to seek out a wider variety of subjects and interests, which followers of a particular faith might shun.

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

Since it is so self evident that one accepted definition of "Atheist" is one who does not subscribe to the belief of a superior entity or supreme being from their perspective ... Who ever authored the first commandment does fit one possible definition of ... dare I say it ... an "Atheist".

So, any atheist who does not even know the source material from which they're preaching is perhaps an atheist^2.

Does the god who authored the first commandment fit the discription of an atheist? Depends upon who one asks, I suppose.

munitions unto a simian

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any deity.

If you are a deity that has any level of awareness you would have belief in yourself. You would be a gnostic theist as you would know your own existence. You would simply need to think of Descartes famous phrase "I am thinking, therefore I exist"

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
If you are a deity that has any level of awareness you would have belief in yourself.

What personal experience does an atheist have knowing whether a deity would believe that a deity exists?

To be honest this Atheist isn't very knowledgeable about such matters as religion . In short I don't have time for an objective study of the history of religion . For instance the effect Christianity had on the Roman empire deserves my study . As for a closer look at the claims made by the various faiths would be like actively debunking the claims of conman after all extraordinary claims do require extraordinary proof .

Cheers xpert11 .

reply to post by something wicked


The article is quite vague. For one thing, I agree that non-Christians perhaps know much more than Christians about the history of Christianity, but as far as the Christian doctrine goes, I have yet to met an atheist who understands it. 99.99% of the time they will speak of doctrinal issues in a straw man manner. As well as God, the atheists have His justice and judgment attributes nailed down, but they ignore His loving, merciful and graceful attributes. This is called "cherry-picking" or "biased sample".

So again, I agree they (atheists) know much more about church history, but there is much to be desired in their understanding of Christian doctrine. And I know for the most part why that is... Christians today spend most of their time trying to understand God, not men's various attempts to justify themselves before God in human history. Christians focus of His Word to try and live a life mirroring Jesus's life, not really focusing on the past. It serves me little good today in 2010 in my attempts to have a walk with Christ in my life to study how European Christians lived their lives centuries ago.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by something wicked

 

The article is quite vague. For one thing, I agree that non-Christians perhaps know much more than Christians about the history of Christianity, but as far as the Christian doctrine goes, I have yet to met an atheist who understands it. 99.99% of the time they will speak of doctrinal issues in a straw man manner.

That's sort of a ridiculous standard. There are how many hundreds or thousands of Christian sects? I mean, I can't speak about Christian doctrine except for the vaguest of assumptions like the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, and the resurrection. The rest is subject to the doctrine of the individual sects. The Protestants and the Catholics and the Lutherans disagree on what should be considered a 'sacrament' and how to interpret the Bible. If they can't agree on the interpretation of the Bible how are they going to have a uniform doctrine?

Most issues with 'straw man manner' of addressing doctrinal issues are merely 'not my sect' issues. They may be addressing doctrine for someone else, but just not yours.

As well as God, the atheists have His justice and judgment attributes nailed down, but they ignore His loving, merciful and graceful attributes. This is called "cherry-picking" or "biased sample".

Um...I don't have any problem saying that the Christian deity has instances of mercy...grace would be dependent on your definition and I'd prefer not to get into an argument on semantics, that's an issue for another thread.

A good example of mercy is the "he who is without mercy/throw the first stone" story or that of the good Samaritan, or the healing stories. But those make up a very tiny part of the Christian scriptures. The fact is that for the first 39 books (again, depends on the Christian sect, the Coptics and Orthodox have more...) God doesn't really show mercy. His idea of mercy is "show me one good man in this city or I'll blow it up" and then he does even though the good man is found.

It's there, but the sample isn't biased when you consider that it is a minuscule portion of the book.

So again, I agree they (atheists) know much more about church history, but there is much to be desired in their understanding of Christian doctrine.

I understand it perfectly fine in more than one form, but I disagree with it on a great many points. Hard to disagree with things like "love thy neighbor" though.

And I know for the most part why that is... Christians today spend most of their time trying to understand God, not men's various attempts to justify themselves before God in human history.

No, Christians tend to try to understand very little, very few of them actually study the Bible. Very few of them can actually tell you things like who the intended audiences of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were.

Christians focus of His Word to try and live a life mirroring Jesus's life, not really focusing on the past.

Yes, they try to focus of outlawing gay marriage, preventing homosexuals from serving in the military, discriminating against members of another religion, and being xenophobic, just like Jesus did.

Most of them may try to live the sort of life they think Jesus would have...but they tend to not understand the type of life Jesus would have lived.

This external image which I warn you contains a bit of salty language is actually a brilliant example of how a great many modern American Christians fail to understand the good things Jesus said.

It serves me little good today in 2010 in my attempts to have a walk with Christ in my life to study how European Christians lived their lives centuries ago.

As the old cliche goes: Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

So it would serve you well to understand why Martin Luther hammered a list to a church door.
It would serve you well to understand how Christianity changed the Roman Empire and how the Roman Empire changed Christianity.
It would serve you well to understand the influences of Nordic religion on Christianity (pretty much all modern depictions of Jesus borrow heavily from Nordic depictions of Balder)
It would serve you well to understand why the Roman and Greek churches split.
etc etc

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Not surprising at all. Every time I ask a Christian to justify the morality in the Bible's "Story of Jepthah" the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

I think you are being a little extreme. I don't think you understand the context of that story and secondly you don't need to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying I don't, but the two are different things.

On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

You sound like a real nice person to get along with though, I'm sure you mix well in civilised company.... sooner or later.

First off... its Civilized not civilised... Speaking about the whole religions versus education...we can clearly see your on the blind faith side.

Secondly...
Your right you dont have to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith... but there is a difference between blind faith and KNOWING your faith.
I suppose you are one of those religious people who have "faith" and "religion" when it is convenient for you. Mess up all week, confess your sins on sunday, repeat that week...and the next...and so on and so forth.

I personally would rather KNOW my faith, rather than pretend to understand it.
I hold buddhist monks in high regards... You ask them a question they WILL give you an answer. Whether it be from their heart/soul... or from being memorized from the thousands upon thousands of pages.
DO THE WORK, dont half ass it. =]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by something wicked

 

The article is quite vague. For one thing, I agree that non-Christians perhaps know much more than Christians about the history of Christianity, but as far as the Christian doctrine goes, I have yet to met an atheist who understands it. 99.99% of the time they will speak of doctrinal issues in a straw man manner. As well as God, the atheists have His justice and judgment attributes nailed down, but they ignore His loving, merciful and graceful attributes. This is called "cherry-picking" or "biased sample".

So again, I agree they (atheists) know much more about church history, but there is much to be desired in their understanding of Christian doctrine. And I know for the most part why that is... Christians today spend most of their time trying to understand God, not men's various attempts to justify themselves before God in human history. Christians focus of His Word to try and live a life mirroring Jesus's life, not really focusing on the past. It serves me little good today in 2010 in my attempts to have a walk with Christ in my life to study how European Christians lived their lives centuries ago.

I do hope you know you are stupid. You're quite the example of this entire study haha.
This wasn't JUST about christianity it was a broad spectrum on ALL The religions in the world. Not just the most dominating self righteous with a god who is clearly a skitzo narcissistic going threw an identity crisis, otherwise known as Christianity.
once again for the slow folks...study = about ALL religions, not just ONE.
THink about it

reply to post by kaskade


First off... its "through" not "threw". "Threw" is past tense of "throw". Anyways, I knew you were a stickler on spelling so I wanted to let you know. Myself being a CHRISTIAN, I am only qualified to speak in regards to CHRISTIANITY.

But if being "stupid" means you should only talk about the form of religion you have personal knowledge of and experience with then..

Guilty? ha

Originally posted by kaskade
First off... its Civilized not civilised...

"Civilised" is the British spelling, it's perfectly acceptable.

And honestly, it's a lot nicer to comment about spelling, grammar, punctuation, and formatting in private U2Us as a friendly comment than to pick up on it when you're posting. It just doesn't sound nice.

Fun fact: The bold comma is referred to as an 'Oxford comma', a subject of debate between academics to this day.

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Not surprising at all. Every time I ask a Christian to justify the morality in the Bible's "Story of Jepthah" the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

I think you are being a little extreme. I don't think you understand the context of that story and secondly you don't need to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying I don't, but the two are different things.

On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

You sound like a real nice person to get along with though, I'm sure you mix well in civilised company.... sooner or later.

Woah, woah, hold on there. First off I think I integrate into society very well, but that isn't an issue, if you're resorting to ad hominem attacks about my personality and ability to exist in "civilised company" then I think we both know who's won the argument.

Secondly, there isn't a context to grasp here, the story is as the story is, read the whole chapter if you'd like: www.biblegateway.com...
Given that you don't think I have a grasp of the story's context would you like to fill me in, perhaps it's some metaphor(why do all the immoral stories in the Bible magically become metaphor?).

Just thought I would update this thread with another recent study by the PEW Forum, which found in September of 2010 that once again, atheists and agnostics were the top scores in another religious quiz/poll. Here is the link to the site, and you can even take a condensed version of the quiz and see how you fare against other religions:

pewforum.org... -Knowledge-Survey.aspx

reply to post by madnessinmysoul
madnessinmyaoul,

I know a lot of Atheists and one I grew up with and most of them study their religion very much and some do not just like Christians. If they knew the Christian religion as well as they do the view thy hold I believe they would be Christians. What I've found Athiests that study, study the Christian religion to disprove it and will not look deep enough to get to what is the foundation of it. What is the foundation of Atheism? Scientific reasoning and theroy. A Christion scientist has a far stronger argument based on better reasons. I find the Holy Spirit is tugging at the hearts of a lot af Atheists that makes them question and want to argue with Christians. Study it enough and put it together and you will find the Word proves it is true. You can't do it with a rebellious spirit to go at trying to disprove it, instead it must be of a spirit, lead me and convince me, bring me a greater wisdom and understanding. A spirit of humility, teachable, and malable, being proud and know it all won't work. His Word is only print on paper but when you read it and ask for it to come alive to you it does for it is Spirit, His Spirit attends it. One man I knew really sounded like a confirmed Atheist but one day he got knocked down with a limb he was sawing off on a treetop that was left where I was cutting timber, it flew back at him and rammed his saw into his groin and he cursed up a storm, I stayed back and he didn't see me and immediatley he got down and prayed for forgivness for his cursing. He began to question me daily about the Bible but kept acting like an Atheist. He certainly had reservations. I have another Atheist friend that everytime he sees me on the bike trail he wants to stop and talk about religion, Christian vs Atheism. He actually is still on the fence and don't realize indicision can't go on forever, he eventually will grieve away the Holy Spirit that is pulling him.

We had a lady come into our home church one day, she burst though the door and it was intermission and I and few others were in the back at the door and she stood beside me and asked, how can I tell if I've grieved away the Holy Spirit? I answerd her immediately, lady you haven't. She asked, how do you know that? I told her if she had she wouldn't have come in here and asked us that question. I told her get in her closet and get on her knees and sincerely ask for forgiveness in true sorrow and she would be forgiven and again have peace and purpose in heart to sin no more. She immediatley brightened up turned and went back out without another word.

Is the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart? Don't keep putting Him off for long.

Truthiron

Originally posted by kaskade

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Not surprising at all. Every time I ask a Christian to justify the morality in the Bible's "Story of Jepthah" the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

I think you are being a little extreme. I don't think you understand the context of that story and secondly you don't need to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying I don't, but the two are different things.

On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

You sound like a real nice person to get along with though, I'm sure you mix well in civilised company.... sooner or later.

First off... its Civilized not civilised... Speaking about the whole religions versus education...we can clearly see your on the blind faith side.

Secondly...
Your right you dont have to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith... but there is a difference between blind faith and KNOWING your faith.
I suppose you are one of those religious people who have "faith" and "religion" when it is convenient for you. Mess up all week, confess your sins on sunday, repeat that week...and the next...and so on and so forth.

I personally would rather KNOW my faith, rather than pretend to understand it.
I hold buddhist monks in high regards... You ask them a question they WILL give you an answer. Whether it be from their heart/soul... or from being memorized from the thousands upon thousands of pages.
DO THE WORK, dont half ass it. =]

Kaskade, if you write in English in England it is civilised, thank you.

Originally posted by Tetrarch42

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Tetrarch42
Not surprising at all. Every time I ask a Christian to justify the morality in the Bible's "Story of Jepthah" the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching.

I think you are being a little extreme. I don't think you understand the context of that story and secondly you don't need to be an expert in theology to profess to having a faith. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying I don't, but the two are different things.

On a VERY related subject, I keep seeing posts on ATS that shows only something like 20% of Americans know where America would be placed on a map - is this really a question of education or religion?

You sound like a real nice person to get along with though, I'm sure you mix well in civilised company.... sooner or later.

Woah, woah, hold on there. First off I think I integrate into society very well, but that isn't an issue, if you're resorting to ad hominem attacks about my personality and ability to exist in "civilised company" then I think we both know who's won the argument.

Secondly, there isn't a context to grasp here, the story is as the story is, read the whole chapter if you'd like: www.biblegateway.com...
Given that you don't think I have a grasp of the story's context would you like to fill me in, perhaps it's some metaphor(why do all the immoral stories in the Bible magically become metaphor?).

edit on 11-10-2010 by Tetrarch42 because: (no reason given)

Hi, thanks for asking. If you're still following this thread, the mention about integrating into society is from the comment "the first response is "Ughhh, duuuuhhh, what's that?!". When I explain it's a story which shows the Abrahamic God sanctioning the human sacrifice of an innocent young girl, the rebuttal usually falls along the line of "Well, I've never read that story, all I know is God is good and God is great and he did it for a reason!". Yeah, good going, your God's a complete douche, and you don't even know the source material from which you're preaching." Which to me shows arrogance in others responses and your response back to them (see pieces in bold).

As to the context, it depends on your reading of the actual passage. Some commentators say that it means God tells Jepthah to kill the next thing that leaves the house, which happens to be his daughter so he kills her. Others say Jepthah didn't physically kill his daughter, but placed her in a different environment where her feelings of wanderlust would be curtailed. The actual passage doesn't say anyone actually dies so it's hard to say. Others go further and state God says Jepthah can kill whatever next leaves the house - implying on him the freedom of choice.

As each of the above can be debated (assuming you believe any of them actually happened of course, which I guess is option number 4), people will read it in the context they wish to - isn't that fair enough?