If only all Christians were this open-minded...

Joseph Priestley -

"Should free enquiry lead to the destruction of Christianity itself, it ought not, on that account, to be discontinued; for we can only wish for the prevalence of Christianity on the supposition of its being true; and if it fall before the influence of free enquiry, it can only do so in consequence of its not being true."

One of the great 'rational-theists' of the renaissance of reason, Joseph Priestley allowed rational critique to be applied to faith, but still maintained HIS faith throughout.

Why is it that on ATS, and beyond, Christians cannot apply this same level of thoroughly critical, empirically based rational thinking without becoming raving lunatics?

Priestley was more concerned with retaining liberty, than he was in proving his religions' hegemony. He showed in this statement above that "if a set of beliefs had to be defended by law or official sanction" that it was an offense to reason - "things are either true or they are not".

Religious supremacy is an enemy of freedom and democracy. Beware the religious threat from all quarters.

Discuss!

Parallex.

reply to post by Parallex


Most Christians do allow rational critique of their religion, but calling those who believe in God, morons, idiots and whatever else they are called these days is not rational critique.

But like anyone, when they start getting attacked, they will attack back. It just so happens Christianity is under attack a lot these days and I think they have a right to defend themselves as hard as they are attacked.

As long as its legal of course and no I'm not religious. I am for letting those who believe, believe and those who don't believe, not to believe.

Originally posted by Becoming
reply to post by Parallex

 

Most Christians do allow rational critique of their religion, but calling those who believe in God, morons, idiots and whatever else they are called these days is not rational critique.

But like anyone, when they start getting attacked, they will attack back. It just so happens Christianity is under attack a lot these days and I think they have a right to defend themselves as hard as they are attacked.

As long as its legal of course and no I'm not religious. I am for letting those who believe, believe and those who don't believe, not to believe.

Do you not think that Christianity has had it too easy for too long?

Especially with the fact that NOW in the U.S. and elsewhere, the 'hidden' far-right is using Christianity as a tool for its' power grab?

I like your last sentence by the way - it's good! I completely agree. (It looks like my fundie enemies are following my threads by the way, so watch out for some vitriol on this one.)

Parallex.

reply to post by Parallex


I don't know why your using this quote against Christian beliefs. This quote should be applied to every belief, idealogical or any system out there, not just Christianity. I whole heartedly stand by the quote.

I am a strong believer in Christianity. But the truth is the most important element that humankind can attain, its the one thing that can truly set us free, allowing us to advance, enlighten, and elevate to a higher awareness without being bogged down by falsehoods that lead us astray and work only to hinder our progress.

reply to post by Parallex


Why should they have it hard?

Just because they are going along without nobody bothering them doesn't mean that they need to be bothered. Its like you are pointing at them and saying "hey why isn't anyone giving them a hard time".

If they come knocking on your door then say no thank you I'm not interested and close the door. If they try and give you a pamphlet ask them to give it to someone who might have more value of it.

I promise you they will, for the most part, leave you alone if you leave them alone.

Your passive-aggressive attack on Christianity is weak and paper thin.

Closed-minded thought is not the sole property of a certain religion, it by its very nature, is a trait of the individual.

All religions have open and closed minds contained within, as do all walks of life.

Many who would describe themselves as open-minded are in fact some of the most closed-minded of all.

Originally posted by Parallex

Why is it that on ATS, and beyond, Christians cannot apply this same level of thoroughly critical, empirically based rational thinking without becoming raving lunatics?

Actually most of us do.

Latest numbers I could find about the US.
* Christianity: (82.3%)
* Unaffiliated, including atheist or agnostic (11.6%)
* Judaism (1.2% to 2.2%)
* Islam (0.6% to 1.6%)
* Buddhism (0.5%[3] to 0.9%)
* Hinduism (0.4%)
* other (1.4%)

To attribute the actions of radicals to all members of any Religion is irrational as it is a lie.

On other posts of yours I've read you make it clear that you want Religion eliminated. That makes your posting this and asking this question disingenuous at the least.

Exaggerations are lies. Resorting to lies and Straw Man arguments are indicative of a persons real motives.

Why are you fearful of peaceful, honest people who wish you no harm? Remember, just because a person claims Christianity does not mean they are a Christian. Being a Christian requires you respect even those who don't agree with you. Live and let live is a good world view. You might consider it if you can lay your hate asside. I say hate after having read some of your posts throughout other threads.

reply to post by DrChuck

I am a strong believer in Christianity. But the truth is the most important element that humankind can attain, its the one thing that can truly set us free, allowing us to advance, enlighten, and elevate to a higher awareness without being bogged down by falsehoods that lead us astray and work only to hinder our progress.

So, do i take it you are free ? From what exactly ?

In what way are you more advanced than I ?

Are you more enlightened than I ? Please feel free to tell us in what way I am less enlightened than you ?

So what is it that you think you are aware of that I am not ?

reply to post by Blaine91555

Being a Christian requires you respect even those who don't agree with you.

Except when they disagree with the belief in the bible gods.

Originally posted by The Djin
Except when they disagree with the belief in the bible gods.

Stereotyping much??

Without a doubt some do get their hackles up and the claws out when their beliefs are challenged...

...I'd however suggest that may well be more a reflection of the individuals own personality than their personal beliefs...


I for one hold numerous *Christian* beliefs...but I also first and foremost hold a belief that you are you, I am me, he/her is him/she...as such respect of the individual should come naturally. Treat others as you would be treated and all that kinda thing...

The problem does not lie in Christianity or the Bible. The problem lies in those who interpret it and/or use it to enslave or control others.

reply to post by Becoming

If they come knocking on your door then say no thank you I'm not interested and close the door. If they try and give you a pamphlet ask them to give it to someone who might have more value of it.

it's all well and good closing the door and saying no thanks, but when the bastards infiltrate schools and government etc that's another matter.

Hey let's look on the bright side we've manage to prevent them burning us alive over the last century or so and if we keep the momentum going the future could look bright after all.

Originally posted by darkelf
The problem does not lie in Christianity or the Bible. The problem lies in those who interpret it and/or use it to enslave or control others.

Kind of hard not to interpret " stone to death" other than how it reads, don't you think ?

reply to post by alien

I for one hold numerous *Christian* beliefs...but I also first and foremost hold a belief that you are you, I am me, he/her is him/she...as such respect of the individual should come naturally. Treat others as you would be treated and all that kinda thing.

Are you implying you are not a christian ?

I myself hold values that some christians do, they tend to be of high moral value and certainly not unique to christianity or the bibles.

It's the morals that I don't have that separate me from the christian as my morals are far superior to that of their god.

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by DrChuck

 

I am a strong believer in Christianity. But the truth is the most important element that humankind can attain, its the one thing that can truly set us free, allowing us to advance, enlighten, and elevate to a higher awareness without being bogged down by falsehoods that lead us astray and work only to hinder our progress.

So, do i take it you are free ? From what exactly ?

In what way are you more advanced than I ?

Are you more enlightened than I ? Please feel free to tell us in what way I am less enlightened than you ?

So what is it that you think you are aware of that I am not ?

You obviously misread my post. I said that I am a strong believer in Christianity, and explained about the "truth" as a separate subject. Did you not read that I whole heartedly agreed with the OPs posted quote? I agree that Christian beliefs or any belief for that matter should be scrutinized. And if it is not the truth, then it is only a hindrance for mankinds search for "truth" which will enable us to be free.

In what way are you more advanced than I ?

Reading comprehension. just kidding sorry couldn't help it.

Originally posted by The Djin
Are you implying you are not a christian ?

Some say I am a Christian.
I do believe in Christ Jesus.
Personally I see myself as *me* in the first instance...and whatever belief/faith structure I may have as merely being a component of *me* just like any other component - be it being male, being 38 years old, being married, being a father, being this that or the other.

I myself hold values that some christians do, they tend to be of high moral value and certainly not unique to christianity or the bibles.

Absolutely agree!
I personally don't see any belief or non-belief as having any monoploy on 'good morals' or otherwise. Rather I see it as merely part and parcel of the wider human experience.

Yes I may know many Christian, many Muslim, many Buddist, many Wicca, many other faith/belief and non-belief people who are amazingly beautiful people...so too those who aren't.

Again perhaps the issue is not the belief or lack thereof, perhaps the issue is more about the person themselves rather than any sub-group they may place themselves (or be placed by others) into.

It's the morals that I don't have that separate me from the christian as my morals are far superior to that of their god.

Cool. Totally respect that and sincerely awesome to hear you say it.

Just as an aside - and please I mean no disrespect by this at all and certainly my apologies if its taken as such - but personally the concept of *superiority* to another person, or belief, or 'their God' seems somewhat contradictory in nature...again my apologies and do certainly acknowledge that may come across as 'judgemental'...though perhaps the suggestion that any belief or whatever is *superior* may well be a judgemental perception in and of itself.

My church does not use any creed, but we do have a statement of our beliefs, called the Articles of Faith. Everytime I am called "not Christian", it makes me fume inside. The very act of judging someone's faith without regarding that all beliefs are personal, and only I (and the Lord) can label me as Christian or not. One of the A of F's that I've always tried to live by is not so much a belief as a claim:


We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I personally do not care what a person believes until they, wrongly, tell me what I do or do not believe. I personally believe someone who lives a good life according to the Christian "rules" who is not Christian will have a better chance in heaven than those who cry loudly from the housetops how very Christian they are. It's about what you do and how you act toward your brothers and sisters more than what you do on Sunday.
As a Christian, I have full faith in the promises and love of my Heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ, and the prompting of the Holy Ghost. I look to them for all things. I thank them for all things. My faith brings me personal joy. I know Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world. I understand the price he paid for my personal sins and the sins of the whole world. His love has no bounds. He loves us all.
Whether you call yourself a Christian or not.
This does not make me an irrational ranter, it's part of who I am.

reply to post by The Djin

Originally posted by The Djin

Originally posted by darkelf
The problem does not lie in Christianity or the Bible. The problem lies in those who interpret it and/or use it to enslave or control others.

Kind of hard not to interpret " stone to death" other than how it reads, don't you think ?

It isn't the interpretation of "stone to death" that they get wrong, it is the interpretation of why it says " stone to death."

Christians are not open minded by nature.

They try to convert everyone who isn't Christian by threatening them with hell.

They act like they Can't help people in third world countries unless they learn to think just like them.

It's all a load of BS.

reply to post by DARKCYDE_CROWLEY


...again...stereotype much?


Putting people into boxes labelled 'Christian' and then relegating them to a perception that they are all closeminded, all weld the Bible like a sword, all preach and berate is about as helpful as, well, as some 'Christians' doing the same thing to non-Christians.