A question about bin Ladens' plan on 9/11

reply to post by aethron


Firstly.....it is uncertain, and incorrect, to ascribe "ALL" of the planning for the operation of 9/11 to bin Laden.

Anything of that scope and magnitude would have included inputs and ideas from several people. Atta, for instance, designated "leader" of the group. KSM thought to be another "mastermind", but his testimony (because of waterboarding) will always be dismissed by the "truthers", I suppose.

The thing started as an idea, and then grew and grew in the 'research and planning' stages.

Now....your OP demonstrates a few misconceptions regarding aviation, and how it really works (or, how it was back then).

This ensures the flights don’t have to veer radically off-course, which is an act that immediately attracts the attention of flight controllers, because the off-course plane is a danger to other aerial traffic.

Yes, an errant flight does cause concern.....I will post a video that discusses it, below.

But, as mentioned already....the efficacy of using the airplanes as suicide attack vehicles at the END of the flight would have meant a lot, lot less fuel.

On every flight, only the amount needed is loaded. It adds extra weight, to carry too much extra that's unnecessary...and that extra weight means fuel burn rates go up, and efficiency down.

For a B-757 and B-767 we generally aim (depending on destination weather, if it's forecasted to be clear) for about 10,000 - 12,000 pounds, varies per company policy and pilot "comfort" level. Bare minimum (for USA domestic flying) is a 45-minute reserve (again, assuming good weather). That's about 7,000 to 8,000 pounds. (Oh, 6.7 pounds/per gallon, to know the weights and amounts).

So, compare the ~12,000 pounds of fuel remaining, at the end of (even a long) flight, to what was onboard at the BEGINNING, leaving Boston and Newark and Dulles, for a long-haul trans-continental flight.

Only during the last moments do the planes have to leave their scheduled route to hit their targets, which, happening almost simultaneously, maximizes surprise.

Yes, people realize this. Wish you hadn't said it publicly....but, in any event, there WAS a great deal of anxiety over whether to re-open the Washington National Airport, post 9/11, due to its proximity to the Capitol. There were certain procedures implemented, as a compromise. There are others toady...and I won't discuss them. Fortunately for those who live here, many members of Congress like to use that airport, for convenience...so, political "Oooomph" came into play......

Such a plan also reduces the urgency of a rushed hijacking. The hijackers can choose the most appropriate time to effect the hijacking anywhere along the flight path, and still be flying towards the target.

This is why they've told airlines to turn off the inflight progress monitor screens...(if installed).

....they might have to fly back over a large part of the USA to reach their target, all the while exposed to attention and interception by the authorities.

The flights would also necessarily arrive at their targets staggered in time, depending on how long it took to effect each hijacking, giving authorities a larger window of reaction time.

But, we saw that it WAS successful....except for the (unanticipated) delay of United 93, leaving Newark. That worked IN OUR FAVOR, fortunately.

Here is a video that I suggest people watch, in order to learn the REALITY of how ATC operates, and specifically the events of that morning, from actual perspective of real people involved:

Google Video Link

Originally posted by Alfie1
Nonetheless, I am sure you will find some way of declaring it a fake.

Alfie, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about all things 9-11. Do you have any idea why these pieces of key evidence isn't brought out to the public? None of the CVR recordings are public (to my knowledge) and only a select few frames of video from the pentagon are public. Why are these items still classified after all this time? all the trials are over, all the evidence has been bagged, tagged, and filed. wouldn't it make more sense to shut these truthers up by providing the evidence they keep talking about? What is your personal ideas on that?

They knew a lot that was going on from these flights because of all the cell phone calls from these flights to there love ones.

reply to post by network dude


Only one cvr survived 9/11 with usable material and that was UA 93's. I am not aware that its content is classified in any way ; as you have seen a transcript is on line .

The actual tape was played at the Moussaoui trial and it has been played to close relatives of the passengers. My understanding is that the audio is not made generally available because it would be offensive to relatives to have the actual voices of their loved ones, in the last minutes of life, available for Tom, Dick and Harry to hear.

You can in fact hear what is on the cvr tape as regards announcements to the passengers by hi-jackers about a bomb on board and going back to the airport because as well as being on the cvr it was also broadcast to Cleveland ATC where it was taped ;_

www.youtube.com...

So far as Pentagon crash pictures is concerned, you seem to be assuming that there is more which is being kept hidden but I haven't seen any evidence of that. There is plenty of speculation that there must be more but security cameras do usually cover mundane things like entrances and car registration numbers and are not set to monitor the skies. Apart from the Pentagon's own security cameras , I understand that cctv footage from the Doubltrees Hotel caught the explosion but the Citgo cameras , understandbly, were too busy watching people pumping gas.

reply to post by aethron


Bin Laden like Bush was a puppet.........to grasp an understanding of how 911 occurred and the evil behind it read Political Ponerology by Andrew M. Lobaczewski (Free e-book link below)

In an interview in 1989 entitled "Recollections of 23 Years of Service to the US", Pentagon insider Col. Fletcher Prouty described how the days of traditional warfare were over. The new wars would be economic, and the new enemy would be terrorism. This is exactly what has happened (see Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine). But, as many have come to know, there is much more to the 'War on Terror' than meets the eye. The long history of COINTELPRO-type operations in the US, whereby groups deemed to be potential 'dissidents' are infiltrated and co-opted in a direction favorable to the National Security State, along with ECHELON surveillance of anyone deemed a potential 'threat' by the political psychopaths in power, makes it absolutely certain that any potential 'terrorist' group in the US has long since been identified, observed, and infiltrated by US intelligence and law enforcement. In fact, this has been the case the world over.

If we look closely at any 'terrorist attack' in the last 10 years - even the foiled attempts - we see a long list of connected intelligence assets, FBI agents acting as 'Al Qaeda recruiters', informants, and patsies manipulated for the cause. In recent years, Russia, Britain, Israel, and the United States have all been caught red-handed attempting such deceptions. Put simply, political psychopaths are in control of the governments of our world. Goaded on by a disdain for human morality, a drive for power and influence, and a desire to create a world where they are the ones calling the shots, they have created an enemy to strike fear into the hearts of humanity and to exploit the fear that is already present. Terrorism does not exist; at least not in the way governments and the media present it. Terrorist groups have long been infiltrated, created, or otherwise controlled by these political psychopaths. In essence, these men and women have murdered their own civilians and blamed a fictitious enemy in order to gain popular support for a cause that will never be won. The 'War on Terror' is an endless one, because these people do not and cannot see an end to their power. And while we denounce the 'evil terrorists' and the 'homegrown radicalization' of our own citizens, the political psychopaths merely see us as suckers, mindless actors in a play of their own creation. They are like the con man who says, "Well if they were so stupid as to believe me, they deserved it!"

Source: ponerology.blogspot.com...

FREE $20.00 E-BOOK

To get a free copy of this $20.00 book go here and wait 20 seconds.

www.4shared.com...

Then click on orange/yellow Download file now. It's safe, I have my copy (have a back up one two).

reply to post by Alfie1


At least you referred to the pentagon incident as an explosion, in a case like this family members feelings on having the audio released should not be even considered, release the evidence or forever be called liars.

This event affects way to many people or things to have such conversations held back over a complete non-issue like that.

reply to post by network dude


Only CVR with readable info was from Flight 93 was available. Flight (FDR) was recovered and readable

Voice/data recorders was recovered from Pentagon - CVR was damaged and tape unreadable. Flight (FDR) survived and was decoded.

Recorders from American 11/United 175 at WTC were never recovered

reply to post by thedman


that is the information I had as well. Knowing how well the DFDR and CVR are built, it's a shame none of the others survived, but not at all unbelievable. I just feel that the official recording should be available after all this time. There is still a lot of speculation over the real events of Flt. 93. Mostly if it crashed as described in the official story, how did the debris find itself miles away? I know this isn't a discussion about that so please don't read that as wanting to beat that horse anymore. I just think that a lot could be cleared up if we the people were presented with all of the evidence instead of just what the government thinks we can handle. Some of us are grown ups and have seen bad things before.

reply to post by network dude

I just feel that the official recording should be available after all this time.

You should know the history of the CVR, and the intense opposition by pilot's groups (especially in the U.S.) when the first rules were written that mandated them. Pilots initially felt it was an attempt of a "Big Brother" sort of thing.

Of course, there isn't an organized pilot's group (ALPA, APA, SWPA, etc) who doesn't deny the usefulness and information that CVRs provide, in assessing the cause of accidents....because, that is when they are MOST useful, is after the fact (and when the crew is deceased), along with all other information/recordings that can be of use. In accidnet investigations to determine cause.

9/11, the cause is not in question.

The CVRs record OTHER sounds besides the voices of the pilots, flight attendants (on the interphone and PA), and the radio transceivers. They can pick up other sounds as well, via the "Cockpit Area Microphone" (CAM)

(More modern ones record LONGER than the FAA minimum of 30 minutes...the digital versions, that are replacing the old magnetic tape units). Still, the pilot's various organizations (unions) lobby strongly against these recordings EVER being made public, out of concern for propriety. VERY rarely have any snippets of ACTUAL CVR tapes made it past NTSB security, in any civlian airliner crash instance.



Here is a B/W line drawing of a typical CVR control panel, as it appears on a typical Boeing instrument panel, in the overhead, approximately mid-way between the pilots' heads:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c738becc54c5.jpg[/atsimg]

Here's an example of a B-757 (the B-767 is very similar). You can see its position, relative to the other panel items, and this will vary slightly from airplane to airplane, according to customer. BUT, not by much.

You can recognize it by the red (erase) and green (test) push-buttons:



(I found this image online, and it looks a bit computer-generated, as compared to actual photograph. BUT, other than that, it's an accurate depiction).

Why don't you debunkers just ignore the truth movement? Are you afraid that the american people are so stupid that if you didn't counter truther arguements then the american people would start to believe in the myriad of conspiracy theories? Doesn't a wise man avoid getting into arguements with fools? You debunkers can not have it both ways: Either the 911 conpiracy theories are tripe and hence not worthy of attention or their is something to them.

What has made me suspicious of the government more than anything else is the behavior of the debunkers. If the government would have given a plausible and definitive explaination of the events of that day.there would be no debate today. By debating the truthers you actually give them credibility.

Truther numbers seem to be growing. Iran's President talked a little about 911 conpiracy theories in the UN just the other day.

Time wounds all heals. And, according to Dante at least, the deepest pits of hell are reserved for traitors.

So, debunkers, ignore the truth movement! Display integrity. I dare you!

Tim Osmond had ... oh wait I mean Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11. There is no.. zero.. not one shred of evidence linking him to 9/11 and this has been confirmed by the FBI. Even the supposed "tape" where he talks about it has been proven to be a fake. And every video since is an obvious fake. Bin Laden died in December of 2001 somewhere around Tora Bora.

If we are to believe hijackers took over the plane then we would have to believe every single one of the hijackers knew their plan, knew where they were, knew where they had to go and knew how to fly the planes to get there.

Technically, yes this is possible. In respect to hijacking the plane, well.. maybe it could have been done the way they say it went down. As far as altering the route of the planes, its not hard. Adjust the heading of the auto pilot and the plane will go that direction. Its as simple as turning a knob. However, steering a 500mph jet into a small building, and hitting it on the first try is a completely different story. And yet this happened THREE times. THREE times on the first try each pilot managed to hit its target, flying at incredible, high-speed stall causing speeds.

Far fetched? You bet.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Tim Osmond had ... oh wait I mean Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11. There is no.. zero.. not one shred of evidence linking him to 9/11 and this has been confirmed by the FBI. Even the supposed "tape" where he talks about it has been proven to be a fake. And every video since is an obvious fake. Bin Laden died in December of 2001 somewhere around Tora Bora.

If we are to believe hijackers took over the plane then we would have to believe every single one of the hijackers knew their plan, knew where they were, knew where they had to go and knew how to fly the planes to get there.

Technically, yes this is possible. In respect to hijacking the plane, well.. maybe it could have been done the way they say it went down. As far as altering the route of the planes, its not hard. Adjust the heading of the auto pilot and the plane will go that direction. Its as simple as turning a knob. However, steering a 500mph jet into a small building, and hitting it on the first try is a completely different story. And yet this happened THREE times. THREE times on the first try each pilot managed to hit its target, flying at incredible, high-speed stall causing speeds.

Far fetched? You bet.

Which " small building " are you referring to ?

reply to post by Alfie1


All of them. Moving at 500+mph, every target is a very small window of opportunity. The trade centers were roughly the width of a jet liner, maybe a little wider. At high speeds, even the slightest wind shear could have thrown them off of hitting those buildings. It takes a lot of skill.

reply to post by DerekJR321


No it doesn't.

At high speeds, even the slightest wind shear could have thrown them off of hitting those buildings. It takes a lot of skill.

Winds were light and variable....well less than ten knots, more like five.

("wind shear"? In this instance? Hardly appropriate argument).

You look out the windows, and steer. Constant corrections, any pilot knows how to do this, regardless of speed.....

reply to post by weedwhacker


So in your opinion even a novice could fly a Boeing Airliner into the twin towers? Thats what your saying?

reply to post by DerekJR321


Well, these guys did it for a Dutch TV show, "Zembla", aired in 2006.



I don't speak Dutch, unfortunately.

I DID find the full show (51 minutes) on Google video, with English subtitles.

The YouTube segment above is "Part 4/6".

Here's the Google vid:

Google Video Link

I'll assume that you can F/F to more than halfway, to find the segment that is in the YT video....

EDIT: Ahhh...finally got the video to play better.....the simulator experiment, flying into the Pentagon, starts at about 27:00.

reply to post by weedwhacker

The image is a computer generated one, it's from a commercial addon for Flight Simulator called Level-D 767, which is extremely accurate in its representation of the Boeing 767. It's either that or the Captain Sim Boeing 757 addon.

reply to post by weedwhacker

And before truthers hark on about, how it can't be a true representation because it's using a Boeing 747 simulator, keep in mind that they're only showing, that it's possible for a relative novice to fly the flight profile flown by Hani Hanjour on 9/11.

reply to post by roboe


Thanks for the update....I see it's from "AVSIM" company. And, not to be too picky, but the one I have above, earlier post, IS the 757. Look at the hydraulics panel, and the pneumatics and airconditioning, just at a quick glance, easiest way to spot the differences. Of course, the big red "Fuel Jettison" buttons, too!

Here's a real photo, real 767:



(There are few other minor differences....) Arrrrgh!!! I had to adjust the pixel dimensions, so it's a little distorted, as displayed here in thread, sorry. Otherwise, it'd crop on the side....don't know how to add scroll bars!

reply to post by weedwhacker

Yeah, haven't flown the LDS 767 for a while, been stuck on the MD11. And AVSIM is a website dedicated to Flightsims and various addons, the image is probably from one of their preview/review news posts

reply to post by network dude

how did the debris find itself miles away?

It didn't go miles away - some pieces of ligthweight metallic plastic and paper scraps from Flight 93 blew
DOWNWIND and wound up about mile away. Some yo-yo put the distance from the impact site into a mapping
program and wound up with distance 6 miles if you travel by ROAD!

FACT: Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake. "Very light debris will fly into the air, because of the concussion," says former National Transportation Safety Board investigator Matthew McCormick. Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater—not 6 miles—easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest—toward Indian Lake.