Man's Rule Will End (Soon)! But will it be good for all? Not gonna happen, just a pipe dream say yo

reply to post by OmiOra


For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom


Xcouncil=wisdom, I'm glad that you got thrroug reading the entire thesis - it was quite long and your correct there's no short way of expalining it witout including the Biblical evidence. In fact when I started it was longer that these and had to exclude more perrtinent info. Hopefully though, the evidence in support of the thread title was more than enuff. Reason also for a thesis instead of a short explination are the opposers of the word of God. They are fond of throwing nonsisical statements without backing them up with evidence.
Take for example SaturnFX - I'm assuming he/she did not read the thesis because pretty much most if not all of the questions in the vid had been answered.

Anyway, thanks for your comment - but I should have titled the tread as you said "The Greatest Conspiracy in Bible".



ty,
edmc^2

Originally posted by xiphias

How would you feel if after providing love, guidance, sustenance, a beautiful home and protection to your children, after showing them your deepest love for them they turn around and disrespect you? How would you feel if they challenged your rightful authority? Will you be able to control your anger? How would you do it? Think about it again, who in their right mind would allow their children to do this to them? A human father may not let it happen. But God (however painful) allowed it to happen.

I think if there is an almighty God or creator, he probably doesn't really mind if we disrespect him. Why would he? If God has all of this power, he could easily just smite those who oppose him, or just wipe the slate clean. To say that a God would be jealous or vengeful is pretty lame to me, no offense. Jealousy and vengeance are traits of man, not of Gods. In my mind, that leaves three possibilities: either there is no all-powerful God, God doesn't judge as critically as we're led to believe, or God is clever enough to set up a system that goes beyond individual religious texts. (I'm leaning towards the last one.)

May I suggest to read the OP - section II. I'll qoute some here: "Section II:

The Proof

So to prove their claim, God did not destroy them but allowed them to go forward with their challenge. Besides, destroying the rebels would not answer the questions for good but will only leave more doubts to all of Gods creations, that is, God’s RIGHFULNESS TO RULE his creation / mankind. So time (a long time) was allowed for man to:

1) Prove the truthfulness of his claim once and for all.
2) To form his own way of governing (himself) be it monarchy, oligarchy, aristocracy, anarchy, (man-made) theocracy, republic, democratic, communistic, fascistic, etc.

3) To prove that mans rulership is better than his maker – once and for all.

Thus sufficient time was allowed for man to create different types of governments and kingdoms. Advance his way of living and thinking – be it evolution, science, technology, psychology, philosophy, advance economically, educationally, materially, politically, be it atheism or materialism, etc.

4) At the same time man was also allowed to form, developed and choose his way of worship (religion) – be it False Theism, Animism, Satanism, Paganism, Occultism, Fanaticism, Sectarianism, #oism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islamism, Gaiasm, voodooism, sorcery, etc. (Tower of Babel)

5) And most of all to decide on his own what is right and what is wrong. In short, time was given to truly prove once and for all that MAN can successfully ‘guide his own steps’ apart from his creator. (Jeremiah 10:23)



These are the fundamental reasons why man’s rule exist with its differing religious organs, confusing beliefs, teachings, doctrines, philosophies and differing ways of life, etc and why God's Kingdom government is not here (yet). It's also the reason why God did not interfere or put an end to man's rules and affairs.

If there is a God, he doesn't care what we do on the individual level. All that matters is the planetary/collective level. Man isn't really capable of eternal damnation, only mankind can pull that one off. I look at all the variety in the spiritualities as God's way of ensuring mankind succeeds in it's destiny. One book is worthless without the other, from my point of view, anyway.

Of course he does care. Let me add this to the OP: "Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge].” . But the very hairs of YOUR head are all numbered. 31 Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows." -- Matthew 10:29, 30

The way I look at it, there are only 3 logical sins: to deny the truth, to control the truth, and to waste the gifts you've been given. Everything else is someone's opinion (or interpretation) of how to avoid these.

My approach to spirituality is to interpret "God" for myself and to avoid looking at the ideas, thoughts, and interpretations of others as absolutes. They are guides; nothing more, nothing less. We are all put on this planet to guide each other, if we were put here at all.

But there's danger to this line of thinking. W/o consulting God's word the Bible, there's a possibility one will make this mistake:

"There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." -- Prov 14:12

For me, the Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, the Illiad, etc. etc. etc. are all equally important guides for my journey through life. If God didn't want me to interpret his universe for myself, he would have robbed me of my sight, or simply removed my brain from my skull.

Am I going to hell? Thought so. Luckily I don't believe in it.

no such literal place - this link explains it clearly!

In other words the Creator of Heaven and Earth allowed man to challenge Him!

This actually makes sense in a way, but I would rephrase it. The Creator allowed man (and woman) to figure himself out, so that he could be closer to the Creator. The universe is a puzzle, life is a game, the self is the map, spirit is the shield, and the mind is the joystick. I honestly do believe that the technological evolution of man is intended, quite literally, to allow us to "reach into the heavens" and "touch God" (in a non-sexual way, of course.) God wants us to teach him something new, if you ask me.

edit on 25-9-2010 by xiphias because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Vonour
reply to post by edmc^2

 

...?... the only one here questioning God .. seem to be this thread..?.. do you not believe or have Faith .. for those with out Faith in God turn from God.. please do not speak of which you .. have no answer .for .. this is only your own lack of understanding .. that is being emitted here.... Bless you and yours .. please do not state what is fact for you have no .. NO .. idea what is true or real...
..If you question God .. you question Faith .. and I turn from you .. now . . and Care not to read.. anything further..... You have no authority here...now .. or ever...we all have free will .. but .. there are some boundaries that .. you have cross.. that show your own .. disbelief and misguided .. ideas...

.?.. ..

edit on 25-9-2010 by Vonour because: (no reason given)

Huh?

Sorry Vanour,

Did I say something offensive?

Here's what I said right at the bat:

"In defense of the true living God and the true Christian Faith, this thread was also created in response to those who continually, vehemently, blindly, ignorantly and mistakenly blame God for the badness committed or are being committed on earth and the catastrophic events that happened or are happening on earth."

...was there something that I'm suppose to read between the lines...?

ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by pepsi78
Jehova did not create the universe I'm sorry, ...

The creator has no name, it's just god, the creator.

edit on 25-9-2010 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

Here's what the KJV Bible says:

"That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth." -- Ps 83: 18.

Other Bible version call him Yahweh.

Interestingly you said:
'Jehova did not create the universe I'm sorry, ...


ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by Rustami
reply to post by OmiOra

 

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I'm with you on this one Omira 100%!

edmc2

What does an excess of words prove, if the basic assumptions are nonsense?

Originally posted by bogomil
What does an excess of words prove, if the basic assumptions are nonsense?

bogomil - you're one of those one liner's.

OK then: Man's rule is almost over.

ty,
edmc2

Re edmc^2:

Oh, I can be longwinded and circumstantial too, but in my recent post my one-liner MEANT something.

But if you want it explained, I'm at your service.

First of all, you use the sad standard opening of fundies. Circle-argumentation: Your silly book is 'true' because it's 'true'.

You may have heard about my omniscient mouse, called Henry, who tells me about ultimate truth. You see, HE is MORE real than your book. Proof? Because Henry and I say so.

Two. You are selv-contradictive. No predetermination from the start. But by Jove, if I don't do, what Dog tells me, I have it coming. The whole double-bind situation of the Eden drama has been put forward so many times, that I wonder who you are trying to fool.

Three. There are no people worse to cite bible-verses and twist them than 'christians'. You do it yourself through your endless posts. And so we have 34.000 versions of 'christianity', and yours will be number 34.001. Congratulations, you have won a toaster (it's quite a philosophical toaster, you may learn something).

Four. You get carried away, and believe you're home in your church, preaching. Fortunately we have free speech yet, but this is a sermon, you are presenting. Bad metaphors, bible-citations, pseudo-logic. Do you wonder why you people are met with sarcasm?

Five. The reason why things function so badly, is much better ascribed to the fact, that the creator's handiwork was a piece of trash from the start; and now he wants someone to blame for his own demi-god incompetence (No, I'm not a 'heretic', not even associated to any organised religion).

Six. Secularists have no good prediction of the future. Neither do 'christians' who regularly and unsuccessfully have predicted the end of the world for two thousand years.

My post is convoluted, constipated and confused. And ofcourse manyworded. This better for you than one-liners?

Let the pie-throwing begin.

reply to post by bogomil


Thanks bogomil for the post. Much better than a one liner.

Anyway, I appreciate your candor and directness. As for pie-throwing, sorry I ate my pie already so nothing to throw. Besides why should I throw a pie?

Back to what you said:

First of all, you use the sad standard opening of fundies. Circle-argumentation: Your silly book is 'true' because it's 'true'.

Actually you got it backwards. Here's what I said: “Genesis 1:28 says:


“Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

They were to take care of their beautiful home – the earth. Spread the Garden of Eden earth-wide and turn the entire planet earth into a Paradise populated by righteous people for all eternity. They were endowed with perfect body and mind to accomplish their God given task. They also have under their care and control “every living creature that is moving upon the earth”.

But in order for them to continue in this perfect state they must gain everlasting life. How? They need to show that they wanted it (willingly) and most of all they need to show their love and obedience to their Father and Creator. And as a loving and understanding Father, God can't force them to show their obedience and love, it must come from the heart – or else man is not a free moral agent.”

...[Side Note:
As you can see man's original existence was simple and no confusion such as we see in many religions (today). They have direct access to their Creator and they were at peace with God, with themselves and the other living beings / things. In other words their 'religion' was their way of life – a perfect way of life in pure worship of their God and Creator....”

So the start of man was a happy one! Their disobedience brought in sadness, misery pain and finally death.

Two. You are selv-contradictive. No predetermination from the start. But by Jove, if I don't do, what Dog tells me, I have it coming. The whole double-bind situation of the Eden drama has been put forward so many times, that I wonder who you are trying to fool.

No contradiction at all. Here let me repeat it again:

“But in order for them to continue in this perfect state they must gain everlasting life. How? They need to show that they wanted it (willingly) and most of all they need to show their love and obedience to their Father and Creator. And as a loving and understanding Father, God can't force them to show their obedience and love, it must come from the heart – or else man is not a free moral agent.

So how was this going to be settled?

-- in a very loving way; by giving them a simple command - besides cultivating and taking care of the earth, they are NOT to take something that belongs to God – the right to judge what right and what is wrong – Supreme Rulership.”

bogomil – if you are a parent, do you put your children in charged of your household. Do you let your kids dictate the rules or do you state the rules? If you do – what will be the consequence if they violate the rules?

Three. There are no people worse to cite bible-verses and twist them than 'christians'. You do it yourself through your endless posts. And so we have 34.000 versions of 'christianity', and yours will be number 34.001. Congratulations, you have won a toaster (it's quite a philosophical toaster, you may learn something).

Actually there are only two version – ONE True Christianity based on Christ's teachings and the other imitation (false) Christianity – based on traditions and customs made by men. These two groups of course cite the Bible but the difference is the action – fruit of their works – whether they are good works or rotten works.

Jesus provided the standard when he said:

“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].” – Matt 7: 15-20.

If person says he's a Cristian and don't reflect the counduct of a Christian - then he is already judged by the Master of Christianity - Jesus Christ. Unless he repents - turns around from the badnees.

Four. You get carried away, and believe you're home in your church, preaching. Fortunately we have free speech yet, but this is a sermon, you are presenting. Bad metaphors, bible-citations, pseudo-logic. Do you wonder why you people are met with sarcasm?

Thesis, sermon, thread call it anyway you want it but fact is a fact however you look at it. Call a bad metaphor – fact is still a fact. The fact is that man is in this situation because of the actions taken by the very first parents. They were selfish and didn't even taken into account the bad results of their action. Just like a mother who smokes crack and drink alcoholic beverage while pregnant.

Five. The reason why things function so badly, is much better ascribed to the fact, that the creator's handiwork was a piece of trash from the start; and now he wants someone to blame for his own demi-god incompetence (No, I'm not a 'heretic', not even associated to any organised religion).

missed the whole point of the 'sermon' err thread bogomil.

Typical of fault finders, they always look for someone else to blame other than the guilty party.
Note how the first couple reacted when God asked them what happened.

“Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife went into hiding from the face of Jehovah God in between the trees of the garden. And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: “Where are you?” Finally he said: “Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself.” At that he said: “Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.” With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpent—it deceived me and so I ate.” – Gen 3: 8-14. Satan blames man as inept creatures and sadly (I hope you don't mean it) you said “ the creator's handiwork was a piece of trash from the start”.

But in-spite of these misconceptions hatred toward God – 2 Peter 3:9 says:

“Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”

Six. Secularists have no good prediction of the future. Neither do 'christians' who regularly and unsuccessfully have predicted the end of the world for two thousand years.

au contraire – here are some predictions. True Christianity said that:

“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” -- Matthew 24:21-22

For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. – 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3.

“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” – Matthew 24:14.

“But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”” (Luke 21:28)

After that:

All the earth a paradise—Luke 23:43, Psalm 37:29.

All humankind at peace—Isaiah 9:6, 7, Psalm 72:7, 8.

No more war—Psalm 46:8, 9.

Fine homes and enjoyable work for everyone—Isaiah 65:21-23.

Crime, violence and wickedness gone—Psalm 37:9, 10, Proverbs 2:22, Psalm 37:35-38.

Plenty of food for all—Isaiah 25:6, Psalm 72:16; 67:6.

A loving brotherhood of all humankind—Acts 10:34, 35, Revelation 7:9, 16.

Peace between people and animals —Isaiah 11:6; Isaiah 65:25.

No more sickness, old age or death—Isaiah 35:5, 6, Revelation 21:3, 4.

The dead are brought back to life—John 5:28, 29, Revelation 20:13.


When:
While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” – Matt 24: 3


“But pay attention to yourselves that YOUR hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon YOU as a snare. For it will come in upon all those dwelling upon the face of all the earth.” (Luke 21:34-35)


Exactly When:

“Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. Keep looking, keep awake, for YOU do not know when the appointed time is.” (Mark 13:32-33)

secularist mantra: “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die...”

ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by adjensen
I am disappointed that mine was the first Flag on your thread, and only the second Star, because you have written a fine essay on the scriptural and theological basis of the Christian faith. Even if one disagrees with it, you have done well.

I, of course, do not disagree with it, lol.

Thanks adjensen for the flag.

ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by rebeldog
i have a challenge for god---- acting petty is so childish.. needing to feel worshipped.. by us?? insecurity?

setting people up to fail? sadist??

thou shal not kill?? hypocrite?

allowing innocent to suffer, ie. children?? detestful

permitting children to die of diseases in front of parents?? beyond detestful

encouraging the slaughter of millions thru crusades? bloodthirsty?

rebeldog - I take it that you didn't read the OP.

If you did most of your Qs if not all were already answered.

ty,
edmc2

Re edcm^2

Before we continue, do you KNOW, what a circle-arument is?

Originally posted by bogomil
Re edcm^2

Before we continue, do you KNOW, what a circle-arument is?

I’m not much into human philosophy and will usually state what I know and what I believe to be factual based on Biblical pronouncements and factual events. So if this thread is guilty of “circulus in probando” then so be it. But imho facts are facts no matter how one psycho analyzed it.

Curious though and pardon me for begging the question – why do you say this is a circle-argument? I’d like to know and maybe will learn something new.

Thanks,
edmc2

thanks for ignoring my posts. i guess my questions cannot be answered.

reply to post by edmc^2

mistakenly blame God for the badness committed or are being committed on earth and the catastrophic events that happened or are happening on earth.

Your God is All Powerful right? Well then all the responsibility, for everything, is his. After all if he created it all he is responsible for it. If I create a child, I am responsible for it and would even like to avoid any accidents of tragedies befalling it if I could. Since he is all powerful this means he has the ability to stop all tragedies and all senseless deaths, if he gets blamed for choosing not to it is not "mistaken" - it is absolutely valid... However I would not blame your God, because he doesn't exist.

In other words the Creator of Heaven and Earth allowed man to challenge Him!

Funny how I don't remember that part in the Bible. In fact I remember God cursing people for eating fruit, throwing them into utter chaos by confusing language, drowning all of them in a horrific flood... The only one I can remember who challenged God and didn't get wrath poured out immensely was Job, he challenged God but then God agreed with Job that what he had allowed Satan to do was wrong...

How would you feel if they challenged your rightful authority?

That depends on if I'm being a good parent or not. The God of the Bible is a notoriously bad parent who spends more time killing his children and sending them out to kill others of his children than loving them (at least in the Old Testament). I mean let's just look at the story of Adam and Eve. A comparable analogy to this story would be a Father trying to keep the children from touching the hot stove top. God doesn't want them to touch the fruit because it will hurt them so he tells them a bit of a fib and says the fruit will kill them. But God forgets to instill the idea of right and wrong in Adam and Eve and so they have no ability to know that disobeying God is inherently wrong. So they disobey, they touch the "stove" and what does God do? Well a loving parent would help the child get over the burn and be a bit disappointed in them but be far more concerned about the child's well being. God, on the other, hand, kicks Adam and Eve out on the spot and curses them to toil the fields and Eve must experience horrific pain in child birth. So God creates imperfect beings and blames them for doing something wrong BEFORE he'd given them the ability to tell right from wrong.

Because of this deliberate disobedience here we are in this condemned dying state.

I'm sorry, did you get a different copy of the Bible from me

God doesn't give them the ability to know that deliberate disobedience is wrong. Remember how they have NO knowledge of Good and Evil? They are entirely ignorant that what they're doing is wrong... But I guess ignorance is no excuse even if its God's fault they are ignorant, eh?

So the responsibility lies with the first parents.

Right, boy did you just walk into that one

Adam and Eve's parents - GOD. And boy did he mess up. Here's just a few of the bumbling mistakes Yahweh makes in the Eden story:

Plants a poisonous tree that will ruin utopia in the Garden.

Allows a talking snake who is apparently a very persuasive fruit salesmen into the garden

Neglects to give Adam and Eve the ability to know what they are doing is wrong

Apparently turns a blind eye turning Eve's temptation and doesn't show up until Adam has already eaten the fruit.

Lies to Adam and Eve telling them the fruit will kill them.

Blames the ignorant children instead of himself, the parent, who as you stated has primary responsibility.

And as a loving and understanding Father, God can't force them to show their obedience and love, it must come from the heart – or else man is not a free moral agent.

Than what do you call the threat of Hell? You don't call that being forced to love God? Love God - OR ELSE! What about the First Commandment? In the Old Testament the penalty for worshiping another deity was death (remember that verse about putting people to death when they try to tempt you to worship strange gods?). You see if God was really loving and merciful he would allow people to worship whatever deity they want as long as they love each other and turn out to be decent folk. Instead he seems obsessed with what sort of fabric they wear, the blood of bulls and goats and innocent people nailed to crosses, and wiping out anyone who gets in the way of his chosen people (including infants and children).

Supreme Rulership

A loving God doesn't seem compatible with tyranny to me.

Indeed a loving and fair warning with no hidden agenda.

Actually its a blatant lie. They don't die after they eat the fruit. The idea that before the Fall mankind was immortal has no scriptural basis in Genesis and a literal reading the verses doesn't even hint that they were immortal before eating the fruit.

the couple listened to a rebellious angel

Again the Bible says nothing of the sort. Genesis states that a serpent tempts Eve, it makes no mention of angels until God posts an angelic guard with a fiery sword at the entrance of Eden. The interpretation that it was Satan who tempted Eve in the guise of the serpent raises even more issues. Why wasn't God steadfast in keeping Satan out of Eden? Where was God while Satan was getting into his snake-skin and sneaking into the Garden? Let's view is an analogy - would a loving parent knowingly let a snake into their home with their children around? If God is All Knowing he knew where Satan was and yet he did nothing to act. Did he expect Adam and Eve to obey him even though he gave them no ability to understand that obeying was good and disobeying bad? The story makes even LESS sense if the serpent is indeed Satan. Genesis says no such thing, it merely says the snake or serpent was the craftiest creature that God had made.

Satan slandered God by accusing God of lying to the woman.

Funny, because the serpent is actually telling the truth. God did lie. Adam and Eve eat the fruit and live for several centuries afterward.

They no longer need God to make the decision for them. They will now become INDEPENDENT from God.

And how is that a bad thing? You say that this is actually lie from Satan, but in doing so you contradict yourself from what you said here:

And as a loving and understanding Father, God can't force them to show their obedience and love, it must come from the heart – or else man is not a free moral agent.

How can man be a free moral agent without gaining independence from God and being able to make their own decisions? Are you implying that the knowledge of Good and Evil DIDN'T allow them to make their own decisions. It is clear that before the Fall they could still make the decision to eat the fruit, but after eating the fruit their decision is now one INFORMED by the knowledge of Good and Evil. If anything the fruit allows them to make BETTER decisions.

in that he accused God of bribery

God actually admits to being bribed by Satan in Job 2 verse 3.

3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

Emphasis Added. God admits that he was incited against Job without a reason. There was no real reason for God to allow Job to be tormented and his family to be killed. The story shows God to be petty and quick to cave into Satan's demands. God turns over the reigns of a righteous man to Satan in a heartbeat. This is equivalent to a Father spoiling his child only to allow someone to take away everything he's given the child and torment the child just to PROVE that the child loves the Father. It is disgusting and morally repugnant, but then the God of the Bible excels at being morally repugnant.

I've grown tired of reading so I will just skim through the rest. Thus far it has been nothing but personal misrepresentations of the scripture that you are using to construct a defense for a God who is indefensible. The God of the Bible is an angry bigoted tyrant who kills children, condones slavery and will, according to scripture, damn the majority of the world to an eternal Hell for crimes as simple as lying and worshipping another deity.

reply to post by InnerTruths

don't remember if he mentioned these but maybe they help-

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Re edmc^2:

There's a big difference between an assumption and an axiom. Guess everybody knows, what an assumption is, so here's 'axiom'. This is a basic assumption, which can't be proved by any known method, but has pragmatically proved to be true in any observed context whatsoever. E.g.: a x b = b x a.

By stating that the bible is 'true', you give it axiomatical status, whereas your proposition only is an assumption.

You have absolutely no possibility of demonstrating the pragmatic/axiomatic value of the bible, except through your own faith. So your faith is the only demonstration of the bible's 'truth'. And your faith is 'true', because you believe it's true. The argument is biting its own tail.

AND, there's no safety in numbers. But as this isn't a course in elementary logic, I'll just leave that.

So for us who want to build on stone and not on sand, your sermons are just so many words.

Originally posted by InnerTruths
thanks for ignoring my posts. i guess my questions cannot be answered.

Oh my, my deepest apology InnerTruths – didn’t mean to ignore your post. Just got sidetrack by the other post.
Anyway, thanks for your feedback – I appreciate it.

As for your original Q:

Why do we continue to pay for Adam and Eve's mistake? It's been billions of years and we are automatically born with sin, even though we have not had a chance to see any light from the womb?

It’s a valid question – as you said, we are not responsible of what Adam and Eve did why do we pay for their mistake?

Simple illustration is what we inherit from our parents. Take for example cases in which many children inherit something from their parents. Some inherit genetic defects that when they reach the age of 30 they expect to die because of a genetic disease that the parents transferred to their kids.
It’s the same here – as humans, Adam and Eve were the progenitor of mankind and since they damage themselves before bearing any children, any children born after the ‘fall’ will be a damage creature. They passed on imperfection to their children – mankind.

Another illustration is a baker’s pan – if there’s a dent in the pan – any bread baked on it will bear the mark of the dent. The sin is the dent – sin introduced imperfection and finally imperfection introduced sickness and finally death to mankind.

This is where God’s love comes in and explains your next question:

What kind of God cannot serve what he preaches, and "forgive and forget"? Why does human kind have to keep paying the price for the past which we had no control over?”

Have you ever wondered why Jesus needed to be born perfect and needed to die a perfect human?
Here’s why: It has something to do with God’s justice. That is life for life.
Satan was well aware of this principle.

Since Adam lost a perfect life – a perfect body. Justice requires then an equal payment to buy as back from sin and death. But who can give the payment amongst mankind?

The Bible says since “all men” “…had …sinned” (Rom 5:12) therefore no one from among mankind can give the corresponding ransom – because we are all imperfect. Pity us – Adam and Eve’s children.
So who can save us from this dying state?

John 3:16 says
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV)
So:

“… when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” – Gal 4:4

Then:

“…the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.” -- Luke 1:30-31.(ASV)

By living his life a perfect human he was able to provide the corresponding ransom to buy as back from sin and death.

Thus Jesus came to be called the second or the “last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45.)
“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.” -- 1 Timothy 2:5-6

We have now been set free “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.” (Heb 10:10).
In the near future once man’s rule is ended and replaced by the Kingdom of God then the physical released from the inherited sin will eventually be realized.
Remember the promises:?

But for now since we are still in this sinful state, we do make mistake. To remain clean in the eyes of we are encourage to take advantage of the ransom sacrifice that Christ provided.

Note:
“My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” – 1 John 2:1-2

Ty,
edmc2

InnerTruth – my apologies again.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Nice of you dropping by Titen, but gotta go and be back later.

bogomil - check with you later too.


ty,
edmc2