For those of you quoting Kal Korff as an authority on Billy Meier

This post is just something to read specifically for those in the ufo community who when asked to discuss the Billy Meier case immediately respond with "they were models with strings! It was proved in the 1980's!" What these people are referring to Kal Korff's popular book, "spaceships of the pleadies" which famously debunked Meier and has dogged the case ever since.
This piece below is written by Garret Moore the illustrator of said book and explains the devious underhandedness of Korff in creating his own evidence of hoax when he couldn't find any himself, indeed he fabricated almost all of his evidence himself and most of it has been taken as fact for 25 years.

This post has nothing to do with any other part of the case involving Billy Meier. I have no intention of getting into a mindless squabbling match with people who refuse to actually discuss the point you are trying to make.
There have been plenty of other people who have tried to have a logical discussion about Meier here and have been screamed down by morons. This is for them.

Read it or not, its up to you but next time someone mentions Billy Meier, don't use Kal Korffs evidence as proof of a hoax.

By Garret Moore, Producer/Director UFOEARTH.NET

"I was asked about my experience with knowing Kal Korff. I had mentioned him when at a conference talking to someone about Billy Meier. I had had an experience that involved Kal many years ago that proved to be the beginning of a trail of unfortunate and sad stories I would hear over the next almost 30 years. I might have been one of the first to know his tree’s fruit. Bitter as it was and proved to me to be.

Early in my career as an illustrator and graphic designer, I was 23 at the time, a best friend of mine who was at that time a writer for Astrology Magazine among other publications, told me of someone he knew who was publishing a book and needed illustrations. I had already been published doing illustrations for a magazine article for Bill, but was, as a young artist and graphic designer, looking for as much valid paying work as I could to build my portfolio.

My friend, a talented writer himself, introduced me to a younger man, Kal Korff, around 18-19 years old I thought, that told me with a convincing air of authority that he was a UFO investigator and was publishing a book exposing a hoax with then noted author Bill Moore (no relation) who, he said, was also a well known authority on UFOs. He said that they needed several illustrations for this book based on photos that where allegedly taken of an alien craft by a certain Billy Meier in Switzerland.

ps if you do post a response, please read the original post properly before doing so and stick to the subject matter.

pps as this site is inherently anti Meier it will probably go into the hoax bin anyway so it can't be discussed at all.


MOD EDIT & NOTE:
Removed excessive copy and paste. Added proper EX tags for external sources.
Please read: Posting work written by others.

Going forward, if you post something that is not 100% your own writing or work you must use the QUOTE BOX TAG, post NO MORE THAN 15% of the original (or three paragraphs, whichever is least), and GIVE A LINK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL. If the work you are posting is not on the internet, from a book for example, you MUST give a credit for that Book ( the title), its Author and Publisher.

reply to post by Frankinmouse
Fair enough about Kal Korff. His credibility and possibly mental stability has been questioned by anyone in the UFO field who's met the guy. Don Ecker springs to mind. Exopolitics would take him on-board in a flash...if you get my drift?

Meier has been cast aside for more reasons than one person can provide. He's been debunked to the Pleides and back...mostly by himself. He's done well out of it all and probably feels pretty cheerful...all things considered.

Thanks for the reply,
The point is though that in the past, it's been almost impossible to have a rational discussion about parts of the case without someone quoting evidence of hoax that itself was fabricated by Kal Korff, or actually using the fabricated pictures from Korff as evidence in a discussion ,their view that since they read somewhere that it was proved in the 1980's that Meier hoaxed his photo's that any discussion about any part of the case was pointless. There are clearly dodgy elements to the Meier case but there's still a bunch of amazing photographs that no one will talk about except to regurgitate Korffs nonsence.

Ps.As for Billy doing very well out of it, I visited the FIGU center recently as I wanted to see for myself what the reality of the place was. Its a small peaceful place in the swiss countryside, there are no airs or graces about it, Billy is not revered as a god, ( I met him in his kitchen having lunch with other members ) everyone does their part to keep the center running as they all part own it and contribute to it's upkeep, it's not a commune or a cult, only a few people actually live there. All the members have their own homes, jobs and family's to support. They make just enough money from books to keep the center running and pay for the ongoing translations of Billy's writings, he still writes every night and the members do their part to correctly document the still alleged ongoing contacts. There is a world of nonsence written about this man. Korffs description of the center and its surroundings and the running of the place are a complete fabrication and this is the source of many peoples idea of what FIGU and Billy Meier are all about.

People on this forum will believe that reptiles and grey aliens are running the world and that the world trade center was hit by missile disguised as a holographic jetliner but won't accept that a man regularly getting hundreds of clear pictures of UFO's developed in a small photo shop in the 1970's would get his evidence tampered with once people found out about it.

As for the current run of "professional" debunkers,It's pointless to debate with them, they seem to have their own agenda and refuse to discuss obvious flaws in their theories and even the most recent debunking videos you can find on youtube are from a man who is working in conjunction with the ever present "professional" ubertwat Kal Korff.

Many "debunkers" are planted, others just reflect fear of change to the mass, they serve as brakes to hold the train of thought between certain boundaries they deem safe.
They are weary of the state of shock most of us would have when reality finally overflows the dam.

They have tried to "debunk" Mr. Meier, but the evidence speaks for itself.
in the end, we will all have to move from the shadows into the light, whether we like it, or not...

great post OP//

Originally posted by Frankinmouse
Thanks for the reply,
The point is though that in the past, it's been almost impossible to have a rational discussion about parts of the case without someone quoting evidence of hoax that itself was fabricated by Kal Korff, or actually using the fabricated pictures from Korff as evidence in a discussion ,their view that since they read somewhere that it was proved in the 1980's that Meier hoaxed his photo's that any discussion about any part of the case was pointless. There are clearly dodgy elements to the Meier case but there's still a bunch of amazing photographs that no one will talk about except to regurgitate Korffs nonsence.

I've seen Meier pics where you could actually see the suspending line, though. I believe there are some right here on ATS.

Korff might be an ass, but he was also right.

But, as Kandinski said, Meier is a fraud based on many different fronts (his claims to have made "predictions," for example, fall flat - google up a pdf file by a poster named Ike. I thing it was Ike42.)

Anyone that uses Korff's material as the sole means of debunking an idiot like Meier simply doesn't know enough about the Meier case.

The one or two pics showing the "ray gun" is enough to make you either die from laughing or die from puking.

People on this forum will believe that reptiles and grey aliens are running the world and that the world trade center was hit by missile disguised as a holographic jetliner but won't accept that a man regularly getting hundreds of clear pictures of UFO's developed in a small photo shop in the 1970's would get his evidence tampered with once people found out about it.

I feel you there. There are certainly many nutcases on ATS.

But I believe if you look into it, the nuts are not the ones disbelieving Meier.

Harte

Mr Horn by any chance?

Originally posted by triplesod
Mr Horn by any chance?

Triplsod.....

Are you thinking Frankinmouse is Horne?

I've been pondering why anybody would post a thread vicariously supporting Meier.

If Frankinmouse is Horne, that would actually make some sense.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Regardless of what Kal Korff is or is not Billy Meier is still an obvious shameless hoaxer and anyone who believes him is merely demonstrating their own unfortunate inability to discern fact from fiction.

Originally posted by wasco2
Regardless of what Kal Korff is or is not Billy Meier is still an obvious shameless hoaxer and anyone who believes him is merely demonstrating their own unfortunate inability to discern fact from fiction.

Wasco2.....

The Meier subject matter is beyond discussion.....it is unequivocally an extensive hoax.

In addition to the thoughts pertaining to frankinmouse being Horne, I guess it's also possible the thread has been started as a catalyst for another Meier "battle thread", merely as a "star & flag" exercise.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Unbelievable....

Harte : "I've seen Meier pics where you could actually see the suspending line, though. I believe there are some right here on ATS.
Korff might be an ass, but he was also right. "

Did you actually read my post?? It's proof about Korff .....who fabricated the pictures.....that you find on ATS and other sites....with suspenion lines in them......that people quote back to you when talking about Meier...... please read the bloody post at least before commenting.

Yes I am Michael Horn, so is my mother and so is my brothers wife. For F****s sake not everybody interested in Meier is michael horn.
I'm glad i posted this up, it was just an exercise in seeing if anyone here would at least make an attempt to use reason and logic in a discussion about the subject matter. And tadaa.......no. The only response has been to make a comment that is completey ridiculous considering the original post and to assume I'm michael horn and ignore the matter entirely.
Well done ATS on another stunning piece of promoting ignorance.

Maybe someone just wanted to have a logical discussion without idiots screaming at them for once...maybe not?
No not bloody "maybe not" actually that was entirely the case. You can keep your stars flags, you guys can use them to fight off dem aliens infestin our planet or try throwing them at the next holographic jet liner you see heading for you see how that works out for you.
.
Peace

Michael Horn

.....only kidding,

Tony Q.
Wicklow,
Ireland.

lets forget about the hoax that walks like a man for just a moment, what exactly is your problem with kal korff? i've read his work and found it to be well researched and well put together for the most part. it does seem to me that he wants the truth as much as most of us do. he has had access to highly classified files while doing computer programming for the US government and has used it to peruse ufo related files, people attack him as a cia/disinfo agent all the time with no evidence because they can't attack his research.

reply to post by abe froman


and there is absolutely nothing in the op that discredits korff. even meier's wife came out against this hoax. so what's next? you defending rael?

Originally posted by Frankinmouse
Unbelievable....

Harte : "I've seen Meier pics where you could actually see the suspending line, though. I believe there are some right here on ATS.
Korff might be an ass, but he was also right. "

Did you actually read my post?? It's proof about Korff .....who fabricated the pictures.....that you find on ATS and other sites....with suspenion lines in them......that people quote back to you when talking about Meier...... please read the bloody post at least before commenting.

Why would I read your post? You are calling us idiots.

I already know all about what they say about Korff. My instinct that you would have nothing new to add was spot-on.

Yes I am Michael Horn, so is my mother and so is my brothers wife. For F****s sake not everybody interested in Meier is michael horn.
I'm glad i posted this up, it was just an exercise in seeing if anyone here would at least make an attempt to use reason and logic in a discussion about the subject matter. And tadaa.......no. The only response has been to make a comment that is completey ridiculous considering the original post and to assume I'm michael horn and ignore the matter entirely.
Well done ATS on another stunning piece of promoting ignorance.

Maybe someone just wanted to have a logical discussion without idiots screaming at them for once...maybe not?

Sure. So tell me, when will you stop screaming?

No not bloody "maybe not" actually that was entirely the case. You can keep your stars flags, you guys can use them to fight off dem aliens infestin our planet or try throwing them at the next holographic jet liner you see heading for you see how that works out for you.
.
Peace

"Peace?" Yeah, right.

Look, people think you might be Horn because Horn is the only idiot left on Earth (besides, apparently, you) that backs Meier.

Personally, I feel that Horn knows it's a hoax. He ought to, anyway. I showed him as much concerning the Meier "predictions" when I participated in a discussion with him on another board.

In that discussion, he conceded that he had not known about many of the facts I showed him regarding Meier's "predictions."


Harte

I see the mods edited my post, I forgot about the lenght of copy and paste rule thingy... the full article is here:

futureofmankind.co.uk...

The article for those who can't be bothered to read it states that the pictures that Kal korff used in his book were fabricated after a discussion with the illustrator about how it would be possible to suspend models to recreate the effect of Meiers pictures. The illustrator Garret Moore was not paid for his work and Korff used the pictures by Moore in his book Spacehips of the pleadies to falsely indicate that Meiers most famous and previously analysed as genuine photographs were hoaxes.
Korff's facts for everything else in his book were either wildly inaccurate or completely made up.
The man ( Korff )thinks he is a colonel in the Isreali secret services and is imbued with nano technology that he invented. The guy is clearly insane and has been quoted for years as "the authority on the Meier "hoax".

Harte: I did not call you an idiot. You initially posted a reply to my post without even reading it.... The only people i referred to in the post as idiots were people who people who blindly argue a point without fully knowing what the post is about or taking the time to enter a logical discussion about the subject matter.
You in fact have called your self an idiot.

If it seemed that I was screaming I apologise, it is frustrating not to be able to have a simple discussion about a subject, this post was about Korff and the effect people like him have had on this case, and you Abe Froman have admirably demonstrated my point for me.

And yes,
Peace.

Meier is his own worse debunker....

His own photos of very human-looking aliens in foil jumpsuits holding rather obviously home-crafted laser guns certainly casts doubt. (there's even a thread here on ATS identifying the origin of pieces used)

There's the Asket and Nera hoax, in which Billy presents "aliens" that are actually screen shots of Merv Griffith show guests (Meier claims the Swiss MIB switched the photos)

There's the "time travel photo" of a pterasaur, which is really an illustration from a magazine (again, there's an ATS thread which even shows where it was taken from)

Add this to some of the earlier photos with model cars, and UFOs made from bowls and ball bearings, and you don't need a Kal Korff to dubunk the claims...he does it all very well by himself.

If Frankinmouse is Horne, that would actually make some sense.

I doubt it. Mr. Horn is a member, though is rarely on, and has no problem defending the Meier case himself. I may not agree with him, but I do respect his conviction, and he is not the type to hide behind an anonymous username to argue the point. (and before it's said, yes, Mr. Horn knows my full name as well, so not a glass houses thing...)

I'm not dismissing the fact that there are dodgy elements to the case, what I'm trying to get at is that the other aspects of the case that are harder to dismiss have not been looked at properly because of korffs pervious influence. As I stated in the original post, this is about korffs effect on peoples opinion on meier before they do any research at all. Here on ats everyone goes on about rayguns and dinosaurs admitedly weak evidence for anything, but they refuse to discuss the other 200 high quality photos that are harder to deal with, I believe this us a direct result of korffs book in the 1980's in which korff falsely created his own retouched versions of Meiers photos and passed then on to the public as evidence of fakery.

reply to post by Frankinmouse


Frankinmouse.....

..they refuse to discuss the other 200 high quality photos that are harder to deal with..

Notwithstanding I think I will be sorry I asked this because it will probably spark a Billy Meier "Battle Thread".....

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is & show us one of "the other 200 high quality photos that are harder to deal with"?

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Many people have investigated Meier's fanciful claims, though it seems Korff has issues, there are plenty of other investigations which all point to one overwhelming conclusion: Meier is a complete and utter fraud...right up there with Von Daniken in my opinion.

Frankinmouse, I have watched each and every film every put together on, about, or by the Meier camp and his wonderful tales. I have read a bunch but surely I am lacking a great deal there. There is certainly a phenomena around Meier that is intriguing and the more you learn about him and the people that have investigated him in the past, the more interesting it gets. That being said, I made up my own mind about Meier long before I heard of this Karl fellow. While I can understand your passion for the topic, to try and hang all the detractors on one man's claims about another man is doing a great disservice. If you want to discuss the authenticity of Meier's photos, there are some very interesting threads about that topic already. You will notice that many people have done a great job debunking Meier already without quoting or refering to Karl ever. I did not need Karl. It would seem most people on ATS did not need Karl. If you want to cast out Karl because someone that worked for him said to, then do so. Now you can move on to any one of the vast plethora of reasons not to believe the Billy Meier fairy tale. Interesting tale though it is.

I just feel you are focusing on the wrong thing here. Once you eliminate anyone that based their beliefs on anything Karl showed them or said in some book, what do you plan to do next? Next you have people like myself who could care less what Karl said and still will never believe there is anything more to Billy than too much time.

reply to post by Frankinmouse


With any famous person especially in a field such as UFO/paranormal there will always be people, who for one reason or another, have made up their minds to trash-talk them.
I've always wondered if it's just Human stubbornness or Shill dis-informants.

There are people in this forum who; as soon as they read their 'target/nemesis' name, will jump on the tread with their negative OPINION (because that's all it is) which sadly taints the tread for others.

I happen to believe Billy Meier. He's unassuming, never wanted attention, never retired off any money he made after going semi-public, had nothing to gain, didn't seek publicity, offered up some of the most intriguing photos ever and to this day, hasn't wavered one bit from any of his claims.