Alien abduction accounts take major hit:

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
so it's a bit unfair to imply he's somehow introducing a false dichotomy when all he's doing is responding to the charge.

It is not unfair at all. Though he may have specifically between referring to Turridu's post, it is a common false dichotomy when we are similar conversations. The argument are cast as either it was an actual physical event or the subject is lying or mentally ill; the latter two options discussed in such as tone as to ridicule the idea, a straw-man, though no one suggested the latter two options were the only alternatives.

Computer? Internet? Technology is not the answer. Sure it's great for society-sake but not spirituality sake!
We have the ability to be telepathic my caveman friend.

Technology is keeping us from being spiritual Beings and REALLY tapping into our TRIUE capabilities. If we honed into that, I could read your mind and not need the Internet to communicate!

But let's face it, there's no money to be made in spirituality. That's free for everyone so........... the people running the world have to distract (and extract money from) us somehow.

Everything that's important to our life is free. Know that.

Carry on.................................

Until I see real evidence of these claims I will still to my original assertion.

Edit-
I'd add to my list hallucinations caused by various things.

We are here debating semantics and primate evolution but the bottom line is that we have not a single piece of evidence to back any of the claims. Where are the photos? Where are the videos from security cameras? Where are the scientifically analyzed "implants"? Where are the stolen alien tools or logbooks? Where are the exotic materials being presented by abductees? The only thing we have to go on with these tales are testimonies and drawings, both of which are many times influenced by "investigators" who already know what they are looking for...

reply to post by DoomsdayRex


Yes, you are quite likely right. What do you think though? Do you agree with Turridu that all 'alien' abductions can be explained by those three things?

I think there are definitely other possibilities ranging from actual ET interventions, secret military experiments to naturally occurring neurotransmitters in the brain.

Nobody is saying anything about the (at least) 2 people (myself included) who brought up that people have "repressed" memories of things OTHER PEOPLE WITNESSED.
How is that "lying" or "mental illness" or "created by the EVIL HYPNOTISTS" (who are, yes, weird and probably a little crazy in mild ways, but certainly not bad. They are not trying to create false memories, and if they are trained by anyone they have been trained specifically on how to NOT do that.)


And not to mention, "some" experts doesn't really mean anything at all.
"Some" scientists say everything and nothing.
Science is full of contrary evidence "pointing" in all different directions.
If you look at enough articles, you will begin to see that scientists are just normal people. They are influenced by their own opinion, and the "scientific method" depends entirely on someones OBSERVATIONS. These observations are not usually in numbers.

Oh yeah, and well over half of mental health studies are done only on psychology college+university students, for extra credit. So they are not truly indicative of the general population.

The idea that traumatised people, especially the victims of child sexual abuse, deliberately repress horrific memories goes all the way back to the 19th century and the theories of Sigmund Freud himself. But now some experts are saying the evidence points the other way.

Key word being some. Key point, as usual and in keeping with with the latest research that shows that scientists often only give good reviews to studies and experiments which confirm their own previous held beliefs, some people here, immediately leap on this as a *proven fact*.

Which tends to actually confirm that many skeptics are as much * believers* as the most rampant of * abductees* . That is, they are happy to assign absolute proof, simply born out of their own personal prejudices as anyone else and it clearly shows that many are not the *rational* people they claim to be. They are, as happy to nail their colours to any mast which supports their view of the world and proclaim it as *truth* as the most blindly superstitious.

Personally, i am open minded about the whole abduction thing. i have a theory of my own which is, probably, more *out there*, than either the nay sayers or the believers. It would be considered out that, for the simple fact that, it makes us, as humans, little more than toys, no lab mice at times, in some sort of mass experiment that has been ongoing for, probably, 2000+ years.

As regards the field of psychology. it's really just a huge bun fight, in which people, often motivated by an agenda seek money to back up what they already tend to believe. To call it a science, is actually to stretch a point as many of its' experiments have no control and no method of actually setting up a control, as no-one can ever either agree or prove what "normal" is. Ergo, the control is not only a completely fallacious model but a purely theoretical concept.

The ONLY conclusions that psychology can ever produce are best guesses based on a tiny sample of a huge population. Psychology loves to portray itself as an *absolute science* in the same terms as Physics and Chemistry but the truth is, it is closer to astrology, in reality, than Astronomy. Simply because the USA is utterly obsessed with psychology and the USA seems to, too often think, what is the USA is therefore the rest of the world, doesn't make it any more genuine.

That's not to say, some day Psychology won;t come of age as a mature field of research. However, as it stands, it is as about as far from Physics, Chemistry, et al, as the person who invented the wheel and Frank Whittle.

The fact is we live in a world where people are happy to quantify people as mad, for claiming they've spoken to non human intelligences and yet elect a President to head the world's most powerful nation who truly believes he is working for some unspecified bloke in another dimension who created this world in 7 days.

This type of "science" has recently proven that the western world is the strange ones. Other cultures react to things in completely different ways, and therefore to base our models of human behavior entirely on research done in the western world is unrealistic, as most people outside of N.America and Europe think completely differently than we do.

Oh yes, and cultures that have nothing like hypnotists and psychologist/iatrists still have stories of abductions.
So, this really doesn't disprove anything.

This coming from someone who doesn't actually believe in abductions or aliens visiting us (unless I see weird lights in the sky, at which point I "Believe" for a couple hours, then go back to not )

Not to say that I don't think they might exist. I just don't think they would care, if they were smart enough to get here, they're probably smart enough to be able to see us without being here, or to realize we are an awful species and leave us alone.

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
Why, why, WHY would an alien go to the trouble of returning an "abductee" to earth?

When Calvin Klein tests perfume on mices' eyes, I doubt he takes them back to the field afterward. Think about it.

edit on 22-9-2010 by FOXMULDER147 because: (no reason given)

Why why why do I see people catching and releasing fish on a daily basis? Mostly for sport but yet we have some who; catch, tag then release too.

Why do they (aliens?) do what they do is really putting the cart before the horse. I think the approach is to figure out HOW they do what they do then, perhaps the 'why' will follow suit.

But, to each his own. You obviously need that question qualified first before you go onto the 'how' question but I can assure you, you'll be stuck there (on that question) for a very long time.

We're not always privy to reason but we can certainly try to figure out method in the meantime.

Originally posted by Turiddu
Until I see real evidence of these claims I will still to my original assertion.

Edit-
I'd add to my list hallucinations caused by various things.

We are here debating semantics and primate evolution but the bottom line is that we have not a single piece of evidence to back any of the claims. Where are the photos? Where are the videos from security cameras? Where are the scientifically analyzed "implants"? Where are the stolen alien tools or logbooks? Where are the exotic materials being presented by abductees? The only thing we have to go on with these tales are testimonies and drawings, both of which are many times influenced by "investigators" who already know what they are looking for...

Pictures are easy to fake. But all of this evidence is out there if you'd look for it before you go off on a tangent....

reply to post by SeekerForLight


To the Believer, no proof is necessary. To the Skeptic, no proof is possible.

So we can show 'em videos, artifacts, bruises/marks, ground evidence, regression tapes, elaborate crop circles, photos, cave drawings, Sumerian tablets, Giza pyramids (ALL pyramids), unknown foreign implants, military testimony, Presidential quotes and odd looking unearthed skulls and still............they won't believe.


This is a paradigm where witnessing is the only way people will believe. Oh wait, if an American Idol says so that too, might be good enough also. (insert eye roll here)

bull crap, we don't know enough about the brain to declare that.

it is the same as saying you cannot forget something, then remember it later on.

example: where the HELL ARE MY CAR KEYS FFS!! oh wait i put them over there(

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
Yes, you are quite likely right. What do you think though? Do you agree with Turridu that all 'alien' abductions can be explained by those three things?

I think it is primarily a psychological phenomenon, though that is painting it in the most simplistic terms. There are likely a variety of factors that contribute to building the phenomenon.

reply to post by SeekerForLight


Really? This is your evidence for the incredible claim that extraterrestrials are kidnapping hapless humans?

A completely unsubstantiated "implant" story from a Doctor known for his interest in this subject. An implant which never appeared in any respected medical journals and was not substantiated by any other researchers?

As for the second video, it looks like a corny hoax.

Major hit? By who? People have been trying to discredit abductions for decades. I'm sorry but I don't believe everyone who has stated they were abducted is lying or making it up through hypnosis.

The first case I ever heard about was Betty and Barney Hill on Unsolved Mysteries when I was about 10. I was so amazed by that story that I had to know more. I always believed in aliens and ufos before that but that was the first story I ever heard about in regards to abduction. In all honesty it scared the crap out of me for like a week after that... There are just too many things in their story that are unexplained. IMO abductions are real and to say they aren't is an insult to those who have experienced it.

Imagine if you will having this experience and then opening up to someone and then they basically tell you that you are crazy and imagining it. I give anyone credit who comes out and says "hey I've been abducted by aliens." It's takes a lot to come out and say that...Do I believe some make it up? Yes I do but there are accounts that can't be explained. I still think Travis Walton was telling the truth, some think he is a liar but what about the others who were with him???

Some things in this world are unexplainable and that small percentage is enough for me. Someone is always going to say aliens, ufos and abductions are a figment of ones imagination and honestly I wish all those people would experience something so they can believe and stop bashing those whose lives have been ruined by sharing their story. Not everyone is lying.

Even if a person was to experience abduction only in their mind during their in-between asleep and awake state, then that is a reality to them at the time, yes?

And who then knows better to say it cannot be a reality for the experiencer at that time?

One thing about Science so far, is it is still a very young human endeavour, and as such is highly fallible..even if it does say it was wrong once it finds better information.. up until that point it will refuse to consider being wrong.

What we have here is the standard Divide and Conquer routine being played-out between two sides that both think they know better... science and the experiencer. Let's face it supporters of Scientific View Only will never agree that someone may be experienceing something that is not a part of a plausible scientific explanation.. and vice versa.

With ufo sighting, there is always a huge effort to debunk using some form of scientific debate/research to disprove the possibility of ufo's. So it provides us with plausible explanations for a sighting.. BUT, that does not mean it is the explanation for a sighting!! Remember that.

Lsatly... it is a mistaken perception to think that people will WANT to lie about encounters with aliens or ufo's. What do they get out of coming forward with their stories? Nothing.. no money, no kudos, nothing we would think they Seek for lying.. in fact they get the excat opposite.. derision, questions about their sanity, and in the end being told that they either are lying or onlu imagined the experience. Pfffttt.. wait till you have a solid day time experience and then see how you cope with it.

well heck, if "new research" says it's true, then it must be.

sheesh.

we have little idea as to what the human mind is capable of.

to add: under the hypothesis that aliens are involved in these abductions, we would furthermore have no idea what these aliens were capable of doing to us and our prone-to-delusional human minds.

This isn't anything new as even Sigmund Freud knew better than to trust "repressed" memories retreived though hynosis. As I see it there are no alien abductions just fantasy prone and attention seeking human beings.

Originally posted by wasco2
New research suggests repressed memories don't exist. Since most "abductees" discover their ordeals under hypnosis this represents a major blow to those who claim alien abductions are real and widespread. I've met dozens of claimed "abductees" and always suspected most of them are mentally ill, this just strengthens that belief.

www.abc.net.au...

And thats basicaly what they want u, us and the world to believe.i also think mentally ill is a very strong word.

reply to post by mblahnikluver


You seem like a very compassionate and open-minded person. And I thank you for that.
People need to make their own decisions and stop allowing others to tell you what's what because at the end of the day, they're no better than you at 'guessing'.

Just because they're college educated means.....nothing!!!!
I rather get my knowledge from a wise Shaman or Indian Chief!

I think we're too dependant on others to 'show us the way' and tell us what's right, what's wrong, what's up and what's down.

C'mon people. Be your own guide. Find your own truth. Trust your own instincts. Keep an open mind and stay humble. Don't be influenced by others because those who theorize are usually proven wrong anyway.

When we look back many of us can't help but think how 'dumb and naive' those people were. Well guess what? We're them in 200 years.
It's not about intelligence. It's about wisdom!

reply to post by Turiddu


Alright both are "good" examples to me, although I have no idea the legitimacy behind them. However neither do you. You only "know" because you decided you do. And it's not necessary to take a leap of faith with any of this. However, one of the reasons why I come here at least is because I personally don't know. Not just that but I have had limited experiences with many of these topics. I've always taken for granted others having similar experiences and my friends and family know I don't lie. However I got on here one day and laughed at many people and talked like you. Then I posted some things and had it happen to me. My thoughts and personal experiences are just as stupid as everyone elses. Once you open up anyways. It's all fun and games till you turn to look at the funny shadow in the corner of your eye and find that its still there staring at you. Until something truthfully strange happens to you then only what stephen hawkings says is the truth, even though all of the other physicists argue about what is actually going on. Really its like believing jesus. Because you dont have a masters is physics. So how could you know what is possible and what is not?

I was just trying to get the thought "Maybe I don't actually know" out there... But it doesnt really matter because hopefully someone else will open up a little instead....