Homosexuality is natural and it benefits society? If not, why?

I’m sick and tired of the threads that pop up where homosexuality needs to be defended against threads relating to laws on gay marriage, changes in law regarding homosexuality, religions stances etc.

WHAT IF…..homosexuality wasn’t an issue in this world? What if, it wasn’t seen by society as wrong or immoral at all. What would society be like? How would it change our society? How would it be different?

I’d like to get past the debate on the actual act of sex. Let’s face it, those that you find to be unattractive; it will disgust you to think of that person having sex, regardless or their sexuality or gender. I find the thought of old people having sex a bit of a vomit in the mouth situation but who am I to demand they should stop having sex?

I’d also like to ask you to ignore the various religious views about it, as there are thousands of branches or religion; some have died out some are still going. Religion is based on an individual’s belief in the authenticity of scripture written by mankind long since gone. We are all free, or should be free to believe in whatever we think is the answer to life, so long as it doesn’t infringe on others who don’t follow that same view. The rights of religious superiority over others should be left to another debate.

I’d see a world where, people will still get married, have kids, and raise their families within the values they see fit to teach their offspring in the right and wrongs in life and how they treat others. People will still get divorced, not get divorced, have affairs, not have affairs be good or bad parents. Kids will still be good or unruly and disobedient, which is what childhood is about and to be learned from.

So, up to 10% of the population would be interested in the same sex. How would that affect the remaining 90%? I don’t think it would.

Homosexuality has been in existence throughout our history, evident in all races. It’s even evident in the animal kingdom too. This leads me to believe it is a natural part of life.

So what benefits can homosexuality have?

Birth control, maybe but this is a tricky area. A gay person being born can’t know of the circumstances of the society it is being born into unless the mother releases hormones whilst the foetus is still in development, no-one know that yet.

I can only give you examples of how the fact of me being gay rather than being heterosexual has affected those around me.

Ok, before I came out, I was seen as one of the lads, by both my straight male and female friends. After I came out and they got past the initial shock, I realised who my true friends were.
They said, they didn’t see me any different and saw me as the same person as they knew before they found out. A huge relief to me, although I didn’t feel any different as I did before, I was still the same person they befriended.
Again in a society that didn’t see homosexuality as an issue, this wouldn’t have been a problem and wouldn’t have arisen.

As time progressed, my friends gave the odd joke here and there about it, which in its context was just a case of a bit of banter and harmless fun.

However, as time went by my relationships started to change, with my straight male and female friends. The female most quickly.

They became more openly physical with me, knowing that the physical contact was just either a comfort or friendship thing. It was clear due to my sexuality that the barrier between man and woman had been broken down and the act of physical contact only meant what it was initially intended to be, rather than be mistaken for as a come on by sexual attraction.

They started to talk about relationships with their male counterparts, looking for a man’s perspective, something that never happened before I came out.

My straight male friends also changed in the way they were with me, and still are to this day. They come to me to talk through any troubles they are gong through. There’s no general theme but it ranges from relationships, health, work to just feeling down about themselves.
Something they’d never discuss with their straight male friends as they don’t want to look like a twat, even to ones I’d consider to be closer friends than I am. They don’t seek advice but rather like someone to chew the fat with.

Then a girl whose fiancé had to work away from home due to a change in his job, she hated being alone at night in her house. Her fiancé loved the fact that I’d go over and sleep over, knowing she felt safe and secure whilst understanding nothing was likely to happen in a sexual way between us. He wouldn’t let his best friend do the same.

Only due to my sexuality did they change how they saw me. Thankfully it’s been in a positive way. It gets me thinking if sexuality wasn’t an issue, how would society really change?

They say men are from Mars and women are from Venus, I guess gay men flit between the two.

I’m not sure on lesbianism, and no, they aren’t just there to keep straight men happy doing porn.

Homosexuality is a normally occuring event with us, but no matter how you cut it, it is a human genetic flaw. For if it wasn't the human race would have disappeared long ago.

reply to post by leo123


One of the new theories is that gay people in populations actually help the society to grow. I think it was described as a "gay uncle" theory. The uncle would be able to help advance his entire family in whatever ways they needed, and probably help society as well.

Gays and lesbians could team up to have biological children, so even if the entire world was gay, we'd do okay

I'm not sure about the whole "benefits society" aspect. Hell we heteros have been doing our level best to benefit/advance mankind since it's inception, and look at what'cha got today.

Rungs of physical and technological inventions and advancements, yet All the while Ladders of societal shortcomings and intolerance of individual differences.

We should All be capable of, able to and comfortable in interacting with each other in the manner(s) stated.

Equally, Trusting, Shared Confidants & Mutual Respect(s)

This coming from a straight, white, middle-aged, mid-40s, married male, father of three ...

... not that That matters a tinker's dam.

Nice post and Spot on.

If only folks could ultimately and eventually cast aside all of the engrained, life-long societal indoctrinations and religious "programmings" ... this world would be a better place.

Originally posted by Tykonos
I’m not sure on lesbianism, and no, they aren’t just there to keep straight men happy doing porn.

Goose:Gander:Much?

Did you know your title was actually a goal of the communist party in 1963?

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 :

Goal #26 "Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."



Sources:


1. Microfilm: California State University at San Jose Clark Library, Government Floor Phone (408)924-2770 Microfilm Call Number: J 11.R5
2. Congressional Record, Vol. 109 88th Congress, 1st Session Appendix Pages A1-A2842 Jan. 9-May 7, 1963 Reel 12

For the full article, read here: www.rense.com...

I don't know why I reply to these threads anymore, by opinion obviously being biased.

I agree completely with your post, people need to remove their preconceived notion about the world in order for thigns to move forward.

I was just talking to my kids about knowing the time you live in, and just because something made sense 1000 years ago, does not make it so today.

~Keeper

There is a clear reason for Homosexuality on the level of the expression of Spirit to this World. To have a single individual encompassing both the Female and the Male within one Soul. The Native Americans called them "Two-Spirits".

There were many names in the many tongues of Native Americans, but as the White man brought the idea of shame upon their worlds, the word "Berdache" was used which meant "Male Prostitute". It is no longer an acceptable word amongst anthropologists. So in the future I will try not to reference that word. Simply Two-Spirit is appropriate for English Speakers.

The Two-Spirit was known as a man who embraced the female role entirely, or a woman who embraced the role of the Warrior/male role. They were considered "Holy" and often revered and cherished. They were healers, artists, keepers of tradition and lore including dance and the feathering of garments. They were fortune tellers, and could speak to Spirits naturally, they could recant oral tradition and could participate in both Worlds of men and women. Often they would raise the children of fallen or lost tribal members without the need to usher in their own offspring which would entitle precedence, or order of importance.

However, for a man to take the role of a woman was not always because they were Two-Spirit. It is said that there were those who were shamed to take on this role. Such as a warrior who runs in the face of fear during battle; upon returning to the tribe they would be forced to dress as women and were made to endure humiliation and ridicule. If a Chief from another tribe was captured during battle, rather than kill him if he was hated, his fate would be to live as a woman throughout the rest of his days. A punishment of a very harsh nature; only once was it documented, that we know of, because it was a Chief that killed all but an old woman and a boy of another tribe, and so he was given to them as a means to punish him. He lived the rest of his days as a woman.

It is said that a true Two-Spirit of male embodiment was considered a Chief amongst the women because no women can be ruled upon except by the one who could out-do them in function and form! Beauty and finesse would be an understatement. A Warrior who takes a Two-Spirit as his wife would be considered fortunate in all aspects of life. As the Two-Spirit could out-shine all the other women of the tribe; the fact that the Spirits shined upon such people was enough to warrant such arrangements for a Warrior. He would be a Proud Warrior for his choices.

One of the more Modern versions of a Two-Spirit was a Zuni Princess by the name of We'wha. She was hosted and received at the White House by our then President Grover Cleveland in 1886. She was generally thought to be female by most, but she was a male. She lived an extraordinary life!

Images of We'wha

As for myself, I am Two-Spirit, but I do not take on the female attire. Perhaps if I had clothing such as We'wha I would feel comfortable, but to me dresses and high-heels are a thing of my past. I dress as male but my role is as female. I can feel Spirit in the Wind. I can feel Spirit in my Soul. I am moved by my ability to address the physical needs of a person as well as the emotional needs. I am cruel in my Love and I am tender in my appreciations for Life. I believe our futures rely on Traditions and I believe our World needs us now more than ever because one day, out of the ashes, we will emerge once again as respected and revered members of Society, especially when it comes to rebuilding the World again. I can see it, the Future!

We should all embrace the Two-Spirit, only good can come from such a friendship! The Spirits agree!

I leave you with this wonderful rendition of "Amazing Grace" in Cherokee! Bless you!

reply to post by Tykonos


I wish I was the only straight man on the planet.

Homosexuality is a non-issue. Only people who are bored have an problem with it. Go buy an Xbox or something.

Every man has a feminine subconscious anyway. So in some sense, we're all a bit fruity.

P.S.
I'm not gay. Please don't stick that there. =P

Originally posted by ghaleon12One of the new theories is that gay people in populations actually help the society to grow. I think it was described as a "gay uncle" theory. The uncle would be able to help advance his entire family in whatever ways they needed, and probably help society as well.

Interesting theory. I wonder: what if homosexuality actually serves a biological function within our species? What if homosexuality is intended to hasten some sort of psychological evolution?

People say homosexuality is a choice; but I've seen kids with straight parents who were pretty much born with an attitude and outlook which is opposite of their gender. Does the label "tom boy" ring a bell? Ever seen a young boy who was fascinated with ballet and barbies? Haha, I know that's kind of messed up, but I think it's the truth.

Solid

Can't wait till the Bush wanabes come raging in here complaining about protecting their children from the atrocity of homosexuality. Never ceases to amaze me how people think the societal sheltering of their children are more important than basic human rights. It's okay, we'll pretend it's something to argue about for a bit at least.

If you want my personal analysis of homosexuality from what I have seen (though it should be noted I am not omniscient):

It's nothing more than a thrill-seeking activity - a fetish, of sorts. I've never come across a healthy homosexual relationship - there's simply a psychological barrier that exists between people of the same-sex on a fundamental level. I'm of the opinion that homosexuality deprives both parties of a genuine and fulfilling domestic and sexual partnership.

Not much anyone can tell me that is going to change that - I'd have to see a healthy homosexual relationship before amending that.

Now - legally, I think we should just get rid of the term "marriage" from the state and allow any two parties to pursue legal unions. Let religions apply marriage in whatever ways they want to, and let the state handle things in a functional manner. Everyone goes away happy, and we don't have to dispatch the Bedroom police to come see who is under the covers with you (or hanging from the ceiling fan - whatever you're into).

As for whether or not it benefits society - it's kind of like saying diabetics benefit society by giving us a perspective on the food we eat. The diabetic trait is of little/no use to society (not to say the people with the condition aren't - don't get me wrong). Homosexuality doesn't really bring anything to the table that an insightful individual could not. Giving your uncle, who can't figure out where to put his willy, counseling privileges on the basis that he is 'in touch' with parts he does not have is pretty silly. If the guy's smart/wise, then so be it. If he's dumber than a bag of hammers, then, well - why would you listen to him simply because he likes to sleep with other guys?

I've run into quite a few 'macho' gay guys. They couldn't tell me any more about a woman's feelings than any other guy could. And, I've met plenty of guys and girls that don't make any sense from any perspective - so, I just think people are individuals, and if you want to understand a nerdy girl, then talk to a nerdy girl - if you want to understand a jock, talk to a jock. You're not going to find accurate answers from someone just because they are gender-confused.

The only way I could accept homosexuality as being a "benefit" is if it is a sort of genetic fail-safe to guard against procreation and proliferation of potentially hazardous genetic traits. Let's say you have a rare (potentially unknown) genetic defect that will only appear in your offspring. Having that somehow triggers a preference for the same sex to avoid passing on the gene. It's already theorized that your body uses smells to analyze proteins in people and perform a sort of rough outlook on genetic compatibility - perhaps there are more mechanisms at work in our reproductive processes than we currently recognize.

reply to post by Aim64C


You failed to explain what a "healthy" relationship is. I highly doubt that Heterosexuality is the epitome of "health" when in fact it involves children who needlessly suffer as a result of the variables in today's Society.

I think you are hanging out with too many people who have no respect for each other if you think that there are no "healthy" relationships to base your decisions upon. Who are your role models and how are you a role model for those around you?

As for me, I met my partner when I was 23 and he was 21. Now I am 47 and he is 45. He has his interests and I have mine, I am the nurturer and he is the provider. I cannot see this as "unhealthy" just because we are both male. Neither of us have "diseases" nor do we participate outside of our relationship on an intimate level. We are best friends as well as companions. We will be there when one or the other passes away, this is called "commitment". I cannot see anything healthier in a relationship than honesty, commitment, and respect.

Please do not say, "oh well then you are unique", because that is just not true. Many people are this way, both hetero and homo, as well as transgendered, you just haven't opened your eyes to it or you are meeting your fellow "unhealthy" folks in places that create unhealthy behaviors.

Most times when a person is unable to see healthy relationships around them it is because they themselves do not recognize how a healthy relationship works. As well, your criteria for "feeling female" by using "Macho Gay guys" as the example is so off base, how else would a Macho man feel but Manly!

I am sorry you feel the way you do, you disrespect yourself by not respecting others, especially saying that you would see a "benefit" if the individual had some kind of "hazardous genetic trait", now that is about the most "unhealthy" thing out of your mouth! You, my dear, are completely NOT capable of recognizing what is healthy based on that one sentence alone!

At this point I imagine you are going to tell me how "healthy" your own parent's relationship was/is, and how your own relationship/s are shining examples to the World. Please don't flatter yourself, you cannot polish a rough stone with a piece of tissue, so you can put that back in your pocket because I am not interested. Thank you very much!

reply to post by Greensage

You failed to explain what a "healthy" relationship is. I highly doubt that Heterosexuality is the epitome of "health" when in fact it involves children who needlessly suffer as a result of the variables in today's Society.

It's nothing more than a thrill-seeking activity - a fetish, of sorts. I've never come across a healthy homosexual relationship - there's simply a psychological barrier that exists between people of the same-sex on a fundamental level. I'm of the opinion that homosexuality deprives both parties of a genuine and fulfilling domestic and sexual partnership.

A healthy relationship would be fulfilling for both parties on many levels - a feeling of satisfaction, comfort, and joy. It is pretty much implied in the context exactly what a healthy relationship is. Heterosexuality does not preclude a healthy relationship. That said - I've never seen an instance where a homosexual couple was capable of having a healthy relationship.

I think you are hanging out with too many people who have no respect for each other if you think that there are no "healthy" relationships to base your decisions upon. Who are your role models and how are you a role model for those around you?

I know what a healthy relationship is. I would list examples - but you don't know any of them to make your own assessments, so it's rather pointless. Suffice to say that they are people who endured in their relationships and enjoyed the company of each other.

I have never come across a homosexual couple that has exhibited even remotely similar traits. I am closer to some of my friends of the same sex than they were to their 'love of their life.' It's my observation that the attempt at intimacy only confuses the relationship to the point of being invalid.

That's not to say there can't be - I've just never seen it. I'm from Missouri - the Show-Me state (No, I really am from Missouri).

As for me, I met my partner when I was 23 and he was 21. Now I am 47 and he is 45. He has his interests and I have mine, I am the nurturer and he is the provider. I cannot see this as "unhealthy" just because we are both male. Neither of us have "diseases" nor do we participate outside of our relationship on an intimate level. We are best friends as well as companions. We will be there when one or the other passes away, this is called "commitment". I cannot see anything healthier in a relationship than honesty, commitment, and respect.

Then you are, by far, rare among your demographic. I will still say I think there's a 'girl out there for you' - or something to the effect that I believe you could have a deeper relationship with a female - but it should be clear that I don't think less of anyone for their decision regarding this matter. I view it the same as I view smoking - something that's not for me and I'd rather not hang around someone when they are smoking, but it's their choice that I don't agree with. Life goes on.

Please do not say, "oh well then you are unique", because that is just not true. Many people are this way, both hetero and homo, as well as transgendered, you just haven't opened your eyes to it or you are meeting your fellow "unhealthy" folks in places that create unhealthy behaviors.

I just did - and you are. I'm not the type to meet people - I'm a loner and simply observe those I am around. I pass through crowds like neutrinos pass through lead.

Most times when a person is unable to see healthy relationships around them it is because they themselves do not recognize how a healthy relationship works. As well, your criteria for "feeling female" by using "Macho Gay guys" as the example is so off base, how else would a Macho man feel but Manly!

It was in the context of "the gay uncle" argument for social evolution. Homosexuality is not correlated to feminine characteristics. Which means the "gay uncle in touch with his feminine side" does not require the "gay" anymore than it requires "blond."

I am sorry you feel the way you do, you disrespect yourself by not respecting others, especially saying that you would see a "benefit" if the individual had some kind of "hazardous genetic trait", now that is about the most "unhealthy" thing out of your mouth! You, my dear, are completely NOT capable of recognizing what is healthy based on that one sentence alone!

You're being awfully judgmental. We're talking about evolutionary benefits, here. Being homosexual, you will not pass on your genetic traits to a future generation. The only case that could be a beneficial quality to society is if your genes are flawed.

Please keep in mind I'm using very blunt logic. The point was not about your feelings - I honestly couldn't care less about people's feelings when the topic is hereditary genetics. Doesn't matter how much you love or hate each other - doesn't change your genetics. You can believe what you will - but a pairing that does not produce offspring doesn't have much benefit to the species.

It's no different than my genetic disposition towards vision problems will not benefit the species as a whole - doesn't matter how much I love my significant other, how much I love my kids, etc - it doesn't change the genetic heritage of my children. There are other valuable metrics - but in that one respect, I'm not doing my species any favors.

At this point I imagine you are going to tell me how "healthy" your own parent's relationship was/is, and how your own relationship/s are shining examples to the World. Please don't flatter yourself, you cannot polish a rough stone with a piece of tissue, so you can put that back in your pocket because I am not interested. Thank you very much!

So you're a shining example of healthiness and everyone else can go to hell?

I'll be honest with you - my father went through two prior marriages before he met my mother. I'd like to think they were the pinnacle of what a healthy couple is, and that they would last forever - but they are both dead. I do know that they loved each other very much - and I've only recently begun to understand just how much they did for us kids.

My own relationship? I won't lie. I thought I had a pretty good one. Then she started acting weird and messing around with other guys. Of course - she's also severed contact with most of the people who do actually care about her (her parents, extended family, good friends, etc) - so, I'm not sure what happened, there. She's really the only girl I've ever had that kind of relationship with. In 22 years of life, I've only had about three romantic interests/crushes. I don't expect I'll be moving on any time soon, it's just the type of person I am.

So, you can sit there and tell me what I am and am not capable of understanding. It's clear that you don't really understand my position, and would rather preclude me rather than understand me. It's the typical response of people, and why I've learned to be non-social. Even amongst other "gifted students" I found few who could follow or appreciate who I was and how I thought.

But I understand - it's easy to proclaim someone of a different opinion as incompetent as opposed to actually getting to understand their position and reasoning. I'm guilty of the same thing in other discussions, too - so it's not like I'm going to say I'm better.

reply to post by Aim64C


I never told you to go to Hell.

Thank you for dissecting yourself and proving my point, you haven't any role models to base such "opinions". Your youthfulness most likely will carry you far and hopefully now you will realize that you have some internal work to do so that you too may enjoy a "healthy" relationship. Everyone deserves to be Loved they just forget that Happiness is its partner.

At my age I can afford to be judgmental, a gift that will become yours one day, I do hope you use it wisely.

God Bless

Questions on functionality are in a dicey context at present. Some feminists have mooted that with enough stored or cloned sperm the entire male gender has no more use or natural function. Whatever natural function it had has served it's purpose.
But the truth is we simply do not know.
It's now thought that people with genetic leanings towards diabetes, or morbid obesity had ancestors who survived famines much easier. When the crunch and starvation comes again, they may save nations once again.
But those are considered diseases, and homosexuality is not a disease but a natural varient of sexuality.
If that varient is removed, we have no idea what the consequences might be.
In several tribal cultures there are more than two gender identities, sometimes as many as seven, and their harmony is thought to keep the world together.

I look at our great ape relatives, the chimps and bonobos, and they have much homosexual behaviour. The more distant gorilla on the other hand is one male and his harem of females and kids.
Now in chimp and human culture males have to work together, for defending and hunting.
So we must have a gene somewhere that attracts males to males. We have loads of homosocial environments that are known for homosexuality, and attempt to strictly channel it with aggression or meditation - schools, the military, convents, prisons. If that attraction - spiritually or erotically - was not in us, we wouldn't have those same-sex co-operations. We'd be more like the gorilla, and less like the chimps.

So, in some people it becomes exaggerated perhaps. They may be exclusively gay, but they can still have kids and pass on a gene. Similarly homosexuality as a sexual behaviour is not limited to gay people.

So here I'm also confused, is the thread about homosexuality as a sexual behaviour, or is it about gay orientation/identity?

My horror scenario would be the day they discovered a gay gene and wiped it out. My fear is that sooner or later men would no longer co-operate, bond or form friendships.
They might turn into homicidal maniacs that kill every other male and rape every female, and even kill offspring that is not from their seed - just like non-homosocial animals.
You never know.

Besides that gay men like Michelangelo, Da Vinci and Alan Turing left pretty nice legacies, so even on that face value the gay presence has been a great benefit to all. The entire Renaissance was a virtual gay revolution.
Take away all the things those three gay men influenced and tell me what you have left.

I don't care what anyone says, homosexuality just isn't natural! A penis is meant to be inserted into a vagina, not some guy's butt hole! I'm starting to wonder about ATS, and why posting this sort of crap is allowed.

reply to post by Bkrmn

Interesting, what makes you think about any other penis except your own?

Click here for more information.

I was expecting some jaw dropping benefits to the world, but besides population control what is there really? the same benefit could be said for sterilization... spreading disease's like HIV and MRSA is a big negative, but a plus on the Population Control side.... If I am to view this as a scientist, and That is really the only big positive I could see...