I am torn...

O.K. I will start by saying this is my first thread so if it is in the wrong place mods please move. I chose to post this question here because I am torn on how I feel about this issue and am still trying to figure this out for myself. It has been on my mind for the last few days more so than ever so....


My question is this....
Who's fault is the world's current state of affairs? Is it the fault of "tptb", the "elite", whatever you want to call the ruling class? Or is it, in reality, my fault, your fault, our fault?

I have many times in my life entertained the possibility that many, if not all, of the world's problems could be blamed on those who choose to try to control the "average" person. I have been thinking however that maybe it is all of us that are at fault because in the end doesn't responsibility lie within all of us? But then again, how does the "average" person make informed decisions based on the truth when they are conditioned from birth to, in many instances, do the opposite?

Therein lies the problem for me and the reason for this thread.....I would enjoy some feed back and would like to hear the different types of prospective that people have about this question.

I am personally stuck on the idea that I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in this world, in us as human beings and that is the reason for these problems. Of course that is a bleak outlook and I would like to have hope that it is not the case and that at some point we can transcend and rise above these problems. Of course what I would like to think or like to hope is true is not always how things are. Sometimes the truth hurts and maybe this is one of those cases.

I don't know.....I'm just.....torn

Hmm
Who's fault is it...

Broad question overall...first off, define what the state of the world your talking about

Some would say the whole climate destablization thing is the end
Some would say the whole climate destablization -hoax- thing is the end.

Some say corporatism that has focused all the wealth and resources of the world into a few hands is the issue
Some say socialist agenda that want to redistribute the wealth to others is the issue

The absolute truth of the matter is, TPTB is little more than a codeword for ourselves without having to take any blame for our actions or philosophies.
gives someone to shake their fist at while having no introspection whatsoever...allowing those we elect to tell us what to think.

So, what is -your- version of why the world is screwed up then? I tend to be an optimist about the world overall, so I may not see exactly how you see...and as it is said, life is a acccepted perception. I percieve hope amid the chaos we call society.

reply to post by SaturnFX



Agreed...It was a very broad question. I think it is a very broad subject overall though. I guess I was more or less talking about the divide amongst us all. The constant bickering. It seems that no matter what we do we are always fighting each other even when we think we aren't. I guess I feel that in some weird way it is the fact that we are all individuals that creates this problem. (Though I don't like to think of it in that way because it feels too......too much like I'm saying we should all be drones and feel the same way about things all the time and that is NOT what I am trying to say)

I tend to also see things in an optimistic way though I will admit that many times I am a bit pessimistic about things. I think without hope there is really no reason to survive in the first place. I also agree that it is only perception. I believe everything is perception and it is all merely choice. But in that case, who's choice is it? Ours as individuals? Ours collectively? I mean if we all perceive things in a different way how do we ever get along. I understand that we can agree to disagree peacefully sometimes but is there not some "ultimate truth" to it all?

Thanks for the reply by the way. I'm just thinking about this tonight and enjoy the feedback.


I would also like to just add that I am with you about how we just throw the term "tptb" or whatever around to justify our our decisions and actions. I had said that earlier in the night when discussing this at home and like I told another poster, I realize now how hard it is to allow someone to see how you feel about things with a few paragraphs considering a lifetime of thinking went into shaping those views in the first place.

Better get some glue and whiskey.

But seriously, it was Dostoevsky said in the Brother's Karamazov that we,all of humanity, are all responsible for one another and therefore cannot assign blame to anything in particular, we can only have a sense of compassion and pity for the sufferings of the world.

Then again, he also said one shouldn't internalize the chaos of the world and hasten about their self-destruction. That there is a higher destiny for humankind then what is apparent on the earthly stage.

Also though, I have to tell you that the main problem lies in your perception. You assume that evil is not an eternal force of nature and suffering is undesirable. Perhaps is it not the suffering that hurts but your aversion to suffering that hurts. You must affirm in the positive all that life has to offer or you will never be able to exist in the will of the creator/the ego-annihilating currents of the universe.

You have to be able to see past the dramatic elements of life and enjoy the comic indifference of it all.

reply to post by AProphet1233



Well I do not agree with one thing that you said and that is that the problem is my perception. If it came off that I was saying that suffering is undesirable to me then I definitely need to learn to better put my thoughts into words. In actuality I think suffering is a very vital part of our time here in this body...on this plane. It is through that suffering that we learn to be humble. We are very much in agreement on this issue it seems. I just poorly worded my thoughts and for that I apologize. Like I said this is my first thread and I am learning that it is very hard to get any perspective on a persons true feelings on an issue in a few posts. So far the feedback I have got has only reinforced my views on this even if it seems like it doesn't.

Ionno...

Is it gods?

reply to post by badw0lf


I don't know....what is your definition of "God"....To me the word "God" is very hollow. Are you saying "God" like the bearded dude in the sky? Or are you saying something else? Perception of "God" and what "God" is, well that is basically everything.

It could however be a fundamental flaw in creation. Duality could be the cause of it all I suppose. Or is it individuality? Could that be the greatest lie? Just saying.....if there is a "God" then it becomes a much broader question and the answer, in my opinion, becomes much more complicated.

I have thought of this possibility but to me it just seems like another scape goat. A way to deflect responsibility for our own selfish actions.....

Just my thoughts....
Not that I believe any of it....just saying....I'm just trying to sort through this mess like most of us out there.

Unequivocally it is your fault.
You are torn and choose to be torn.
Who or what is responsible for the ills of the world is moot.
When it comes to how you feel, you are in control of the vertical and the horizontal.
Why are you nurturing a thought that conflicts you and allows you to be torn?
Don't let yourself get caught up in creating a thought, accepting it as truth, and constructing an entire belief system around it which then upsets, conflicts or otherwise tears you up.
YOU are the thinker - you are not the thought - thought is like running water, drink if you're thirsty - don't drown yourself in it.

gj

reply to post by Jakal26
Who is at fault or what is the fault ? IMO ...Lets look at some things, 1st " Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a territory.[1][2] It can be found in a power to rule and make law that rests on a political fact for which no purely legal explanation can be provided. The concept has been discussed, debated and questioned throughout history, from the time of the Romans through to the present day, although it has changed in its definition, concept, and application throughout, especially during the Age of Enlightenment. The current notion of state sovereignty was laid down in the Treaty of Westphalia (1648), which, in relation to states, codified the basic principles of territorial integrity, border inviolability, and supremacy of the state (rather than the Church). A sovereign is a supreme lawmaking authority". source wiki . Aside from later developments as to the notion of sovereignty,we can assume man was first sovereign .It seems that as we move forward in time we have either lost or have been duped into relinquishing our independent sovereignty to the state .

" Scapegoat and Scapegoating is the practice of singling out one child, employee, member of a group of peers, ethnic or religious group, or country for unmerited negative treatment or blame.[1] Related concepts include frameup, whipping boy, jobber, sucker and fall guy." source wiki ...I read a article or book once [cant remember the particulars] but the concept was interesting .In the Christian Faith it talks about how Christ became our scapegoat . Not needing to judge anyone any longer we have peace with God . I read of history always tells the story of the neighbours not quite up to par,so to speak . I guess If we all took responsibility for our own sovereignty and stooped blaming others falsely then we just might become a little more hole . peace

reply to post by ganjoa


Thank you for your opinion. Your post really makes a lot of sense this morning and for some reason rang very true deep inside me.

I do have one major difference in opinion though. I just don't think that I am forming complete belief systems around a question just because I am entertaining that question in my mind. As you said, I am a thinker. It is what I do. I do however understand the notion that over-thinking separates you from yourself and if that is what you were saying then I agree. I do catch myself drowning in thought many times and I recognize that it is destructive though I don't know how you 'rise above' that.

It is just hard for me to believe that just because I nurture an idea that conflicts me.....that it is somehow wrong....and just because if I chose to nurture an idea that made me happy....that it is right. I keep thinking....what if I was nurturing the idea that I can do no wrong...that I can murder at will? Something like that. And what if I find no conflict in such an idea? Does that then make it right? Can you clarify that or does that make sense.

I think maybe we are on the same page just coming from two different places and I know my entire view of said subject has not come out like I hoped it would but nonetheless I think we are on the same page in many ways....

Again, thanks for the feedback....Your post has me provoked me!

reply to post by the2ofusr1



I agree in many ways....if we would all stop blaming each other for the world's ills then maybe...just maybe it would be a better place to be. Perspective is everything but of course if I perceive everything as roses and honey and the rest of the world sees it as a flaming ball of cow dung then how am I not just disillusioned or trying to perceive the world as something it is not.

I know that is not what you were alluding to and I suppose I am still responding to other posts.

Nonetheless thanks for the post and like I said I agree with what you are saying as well.....We are ALL responsible. We ALL us scape goats to justify our.....for lack of a better word....."sins"....

reply to post by Jakal26


Sorry I didn't mean to imply the right-wrong paradigm in any way -
nor that you had constructed an entire belief system because there's plenty of that happening globally already.

More on the order of freeing yourself of your thoughts if they upset/conflict you and it sounds as if you're already on to that as a practical matter.

For myself, I hardly ever evaluate right-wrong in a course of action or thought but remain ever vigilante and aware
that what goes on in the world and what goes on in my mind in no way predetermines nor constrains my actions.

Thoughts come and go - one can merely control the process - don't misunderstand: I'll sign up to a battle of wits in a minute or debate any point that suits my fancy - just for fun - but basically it's just exercise for the mind no real value or meaningful content, just food for thought.

One might look at it like remote viewing your own thinking in real time.
Or channel surfing on the broadband, sometimes you get stuck on something interesting for a while, but you can always change the channel.

gj

There is no need to assess fault for that's the easy way out. Take responsibility to see what you may learn from what the world is trying to show you. If every one in this world took responsibility for there actions we would be living in a different world right now.

We are going through many changes that are fast and furious, with events that shock us, that is the nature of our reality going through this quickening that ends in 2012.

But who knows it might just be me.

js

reply to post by ganjoa


No need to apologize...I was merely trying to clarify my point of view....sometimes it is hard to put into words what is inside the mind.

As for everything else you said....Exactly!.....that is my line of thinking almost down to the last word. Reading it, it almost sounded as if it came out of my own mouth....

reply to post by Jakal26
Jakal26,

The answer to your dilemma goes back a long ways, way back before Adam and Eve, Satan the great destroyer was cast "into" the earth.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He brought disobedience to man and we are almost to the culmination point of it today. It has been a sad story but true. We choose who our master is, Satan or the proffered Redeemer.

Truthiron

reply to post by Jakal26


Just remember, Everything's gonna be okay.

Regardless of what happens.

Just be ready for anything