Wellesley, Massachusetts Public School Students Learn to Pray to Allah

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Raincloud, you seem like such a nice guy, and very likeable. Please don't think my above post is lashing out at you, because I so much value and appreciate your honesty here, and can't tell you how much respect I have for this.

But there is an element to my personality that demands equality for women. I was this way at birth. It's in my DNA. Please don't be offended by my thoughts, okay?

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
In my post last night, I didn't mention this, but this is the single element about the visitation which most concerned me.
That young, impressionable females should be asked to leave the room while men prayed, sends a clear message to them of unworthiness, inferiority and uncleanliness, which I find quite unacceptable to the American way of life.

American women were put in the odious position of having to fight long and hard for our rights, and to see this completely disregarded in this manner is offensive to me. It just is, I'm proud to say it is, and I am not sorry.
...
re unable to control themselves. These people usually wind up in prisons, or mental hospitals.

I realize everything I've said is old news. And I think it is urgently important for all of us to understand the other religions as a valuable education. I actually don't even have an issue with the children visiting the mosque. It could have been a great learning experience.
But I do think the presentation overstepped it boundaries, and not in a small way. In a big way. Maltreatment of women is not something to be flaunted. Rather, it is something to feel shame and disdain towards.

Hi there,
I dont answer for the mosque, I'm not a religious person and not really a respectable person either (I watch porn too! its a sin), but I think here the reason the girls outside.

Uncleanliness
Please refer to the wudu' section in my post. It is about the uncleanliness that the girls have to stay outside. The wudu' can be nullified just by touch. Imagine have just put up makeup and suddenly somebody smear a drop of egg yolk on your face. Its something like that. Another thing is distraction, the prayers might not focus on their pray which might also nullify the prayer.

Fact:
Islam view women during menstruation or giving birth as "dirty", she is not allowed to be in mosque, let alone praying, she is excused. If she want to pray/be in mosque, she have to bath and make sure shes clean at all time (which might be hard during menstruation), not through normal wudu/cleanse, but through cleansing bath/ "junub bath", this bath is meant to clean whole body and all orifice. This is special bath that performed on special ceremonial like after intercourse, menstruation, ejaculation, dealing with corpse, become a muslim etc. Mans also ubjected to this after intercourse, both can passthrough the mosque however.

Heres a reason why male lead (this is not what Islam teach but from my own perspective) - biology.
Female menstruate, males do not. During menstruation women tends to have roller coaster mindset. A leader with roller coaster mindset is not a good leader. Not all women like that, yes its true, but how can she lead the praying if shes on menstruation ? Thus the male lead..

So it is clear to me why the girls asked to be outside - Uncleanliness according to Islam and distraction to the prayers.
Menstruation and mosque QA
Sex segregation and Islam

On double standard, yes, double standard exist, but the rights remain honored. A muslim women is treated like the western except in religious matter and household hierarchy, women cannot lead religious ceremony and mens always lead a house, except when the male in the house not reach puberty yet. A Muslim women is also limited by Islam in terms of how she behave, wear, social etc. This is actually for their own protection. She actually is free to apply it or not (just another sin), its up to the individual, but the law is there to follow.

From my perspective, women belong at home, yet they can do like a man does. Its the natural way for women to stay at home and nurse. Its funny that Muslim women dont really complain about their rights but non Muslim women is the one who louded it. Not that they're lack knowledge or oppressed but because they accept it. Its like somebody watching an accident is the one who cried in pain yet he just a spectator.

Honestly, I dont really see any problem with women rights in Islam. I doubt my wife have issues with her rights. Really, it baffles me I'm here to protect her, and there are Islam rules to protect her, its all for her own good.
What is actually the problem ?

The fact remains. There is a huge cultural difference here.
Yes, I agree to this. Its because Islam is way of life, not just another religion.

General women rights in Islam is as follows,
General women rights in Islam
A view from a converted women.

reply to post by RainCloud

Its like somebody watching an accident is the one who cried in pain yet he just a spectator.

Yes, this is exactly what it's like.

Thank you for your thoughtful explanations, I appreciate them. I understand, I just disagree. Menstruation is a biological function, and part of the process of procreation. There is nothing dirty about it in the sense that you describe. Extra hygiene care? Certainly, anybody knows that. But that is all. Men are not tainted, by touching a menstruating woman. The rest is superstition and myth. This is common sense. It does not mean that women are dirty, inferior, or unworthy.
I can't imagine how anyone could reach this conclusion. ?

reply to post by RainCloud

Fact:
Islam view women during menstruation or giving birth as "dirty", she is not allowed to be in mosque, let alone praying, she is excused. If she want to pray/be in mosque, she have to bath and make sure shes clean at all time (which might be hard during menstruation), not through normal wudu/cleanse, but through cleansing bath/ "junub bath", this bath is meant to clean whole body and all orifice. This is special bath that performed on special ceremonial like after intercourse, menstruation, ejaculation, dealing with corpse, become a muslim etc. Mans also ubjected to this after intercourse, both can passthrough the mosque however.

Heres a reason why male lead (this is not what Islam teach but from my own perspective) - biology.
Female menstruate, males do not. During menstruation women tends to have roller coaster mindset. A leader with roller coaster mindset is not a good leader. Not all women like that, yes its true, but how can she lead the praying if shes on menstruation ? Thus the male lead..

This is enlightening information and rings many bells, it is something I suspected.

It is all about male dominance and fear, many ancient tribal practices hide women away during menstruation.

The menstrual issue goes all the way back to the tribal ways, only women bleed yet do not die, used to be heaped in superstition.

When God was a goddess offers information on this shift from matriarchal to patriarchal run societies.

reply to post by RainCloud


Hello, I've only read your posts and haven't read the links you added at the moment. At this time, I would like to thank you for being upfront and imo very honest. I am grateful that you have taken the time help clarify some misconceptions, misinformation that concerned you.This means a great deal to me and I feel to many others too.
I wish I could applause because I would give you as many as I possible RainCloud.

Thank you
sl

This entire post is important, and it's on PAGE 1, just in case anyone is interested in reading it. I would quote the whole thing, but the mods are babies about that sort of thing.

And I don't use the "reply to" feature, because the last time I checked it doesn't actually link to the "replied to" post. That may have been changed with the board update, but I don't trust it. Most of the time I see people replying to one another and I have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Even if it worked correctly it would still be a broken feature because these threads quickly become dozens of pages long. It would be so much easier if we could just refresh our minds about what was being replied to before we read the reply.

So I reiterate. This post is on PAGE 1, ABOUT 3/4ths OF THE PAGE DOWN.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
My mother just broke up with her boyfriend of ten years. He's an ex Muslim from Iran. Even he agrees that most Americans (and people across the world) are dumb for not opening their eyes. Shoot, he can't even let his family know back home in Iran that he's turned his back to Islam both out of fear of what might happen to them and himself.

But whatever, you guys keep believing whatever you want in the name of blind political correctness. No problems here right? Of course not, the hundreds of thousands who range from politicians to average folks world wide are all just racist, bigoted and ignorant...

I've read this a lot, and I don't know what to make of it. I've never been outside of the US so I really can't comment, but with so many Europeans AND ex Muslims saying it, can it really be chalked up to bigoted ignorance? How many of you have known religious Muslims? I haven't known any, I'm afraid. The few Muslims I knew in school were secular and partied and had sex (the girls too, and with non-muzzies, OMG) and were basically as much Muslim as John Stewart is Jew, so let's put these examples aside here.

Jumping on the tolerance bandwagon is just as ignorant as jumping on the hate bandwagon. How can we, that know nothing of the subject, actually learn about it objectively? Anyone, anyone?

I'm fresh out of ideas, but I have an interesting counter-example for all of you bleeding heart liberals (of which I am in agreement with 75% of the time, but I do love guns and racial humor). What if there was a field trip to a Roman Catholic cathedral, or, god forbid, an Evangelical Megachurch? The libruls would be up-in-arms.

Whatever the ultimate reality about Islam, it's still a religion (or AT LEAST a religion) and therefore should be kept the hell away from our public schools.

reply to post by RainCloud




BUT men also do disgusting things. Like wet flatulence. How is this not more unclean than menstruation?

Maybe they treat their wives so poorly because having to prostrate themselves daily in prayer to the guy who kicked their ancestors butts over a thousand years ago is such a humiliating daily ritual, lording it over their women folk is the only way they can pretend that they are still men.

When I was in school, we certainly didn't have field trips to houses of worship, and if one had been proposed, parents would have been outraged.

Are any of these fields trips going to include Goddess worshiping religions?

Considering that the people at the mosque blatantly lied about the nature of their religion, no school should ever entertain such a foolish field trip again. At least not with public money.

EDIT - If they really want to broaden the students horizons, then they should add some Native American religions, as they had some great philosophies worth considering.

It is very typical of what is coming to the US.

If you think this is bad you have not seen anything yet.

First off I am not religious, but believe you have your right to believe what you want.

We have laws on the books saying prayer is not allowed in schools,
but in this case it is allowed and is being pimped by the schools.

Some serious hypocrisy there folks.

Technically it is a conspiracy to break the law and promote one
religion over another.

This will just be another aspect of the coming civil war here int he US,
one that is being fostered and fanned by external interests that
want to see the US crumble, and it is already crumbling from its
own corruption.

Do you want to know what's sad? You people. The fact is if these were christains doing this then this thread would be in a uproar about it, But suprise all of you all are calm. The hypocrisy

When you enroll your child into a school declare them an Atheist.
Inform the school there will be legal action if he is put into any scripture class or any such religious Excursion.

Remember folks you must be powerful and aloof in this day and age.

If this were at a church people would be going mad.
It's funny how biased the bleeding hearts can be.

Originally posted by Ancient Champion
Do you want to know what's sad? You people. The fact is if these were christains doing this then this thread would be in a uproar about it, But suprise all of you all are calm. The hypocrisy

Crazy huh Ancient Champion, you see, this is a great time to sit back and observe. Thats what I've been doing. I couldn't even imagine the uproar if this video was filmed from a different church!
Here's an off the wall question, lol. What would the politicians have to say if they weren't allowed to smear their brother and sister opponents
Too many people casting judgement and not enough people actually solving issues or at the least finding a middle ground for talking and problem solving.

Did our parents and grandparents raise self centered spoiled brats or did we become lazy and entitled-minded all on our own?
Thanks
sl

Originally posted by Gestas
When you enroll your child into a school declare them an Atheist.
Inform the school there will be legal action if he is put into any scripture class or any such religious Excursion.

Remember folks you must be powerful and aloof in this day and age.

Oh yea, lets go straight to the threats and bypass simple listening and communicating with one another. The majority of the people in our school systems already do their best to adhere to the laws and the concerns of the parents. Lets not communicate without using threats first?
Let's live in fear through shocking and threatening others?

Thanks
sl

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by RainCloud

 

Its like somebody watching an accident is the one who cried in pain yet he just a spectator.

Yes, this is exactly what it's like.

Thank you for your thoughtful explanations, I appreciate them. I understand, I just disagree. Menstruation is a biological function, and part of the process of procreation. There is nothing dirty about it in the sense that you describe. Extra hygiene care? Certainly, anybody knows that. But that is all. Men are not tainted, by touching a menstruating woman. The rest is superstition and myth. This is common sense. It does not mean that women are dirty, inferior, or unworthy.
I can't imagine how anyone could reach this conclusion. ?

edit on 9/18/2010 by ladyinwaiting because: Women can have babies! What a glorious manifest of nature!

I hope we all can learn to communicate with each other like you and RainCloud have done. Both of you are show respect and yet aren't afraid to speak how you feel about a subject or issue. This is quite strange, lol.
Don't stop now!

Thanks
sl

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

Thank you for your thoughtful explanations, I appreciate them. I understand, I just disagree. Menstruation is a biological function, and part of the process of procreation. There is nothing dirty about it in the sense that you describe. Extra hygiene care? Certainly, anybody knows that. But that is all. Men are not tainted, by touching a menstruating woman. The rest is superstition and myth. This is common sense. It does not mean that women are dirty, inferior, or unworthy.
I can't imagine how anyone could reach this conclusion. ?

edit on 9/18/2010 by ladyinwaiting because: Women can have babies! What a glorious manifest of nature!

Hey guess what guy ? I get an applause from the mod and become somebody respected foe 10mins later. LOL

Some more explanation for more ATS point! ( just kidding )

This is common sense. It does not mean that women are dirty, inferior, or unworthy.

During menstruation - Dirty - Yes, Inferior - Depends on situation, Unworthy - Who said this ?
The prophet tell us that a mother is valued 3 times more than the father and no matter how religious I'm, if my mother doesnt bless me, I wont even smell heaven let alone enter it. Another sayeth/hadith tells that I cant even say "ah" (comparable to "huh"/"sheesh") to my parents.

Now you see, that a Muslim women is really appreciated and well protected. I think it worth mentioning that Arab women treated better with coming of Islam. Arabs tribes before Islam buried their daughters alive if he ashamed of her. Islam view that as major sin. However some sect/part of the world, the hudud/punishment taken a bit too strict, probably due to their cultural/regional belief, it tainted Islam image.
The best way is to ask a semi religious Muslim women about what she felt just to be fair. One that wear head covering without the ninja face cover but still pray. A religious one might say "way to go", whilst a non religious might say "i dont really care". Islam prefer a modest life, so choose a modest ones.

The rest is superstition and myth. ...
The menstrual issue goes all the way back to the tribal ways, only women bleed yet do not die, used to be heaped in superstition. ...
BUT men also do disgusting things. Like wet flatulence. How is this not more unclean than menstruation?

Superstition or myth or tribal or cultural or whatever doesnt really fit to the criteria. If its dictated in the Koran, so be it and so shall it be. We view menstruation as women weak time, physically and mentally and special care needed for her. Apart from praying, we are forbidden from intercourse also, I dont know about other religion/moral about this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Flatulence, wet or not, sound or not, smelly or not, noticed by others or not will nullify the wudu/cleanse, no need for the junub bath, merely recleanse/wudu again.

Maybe they treat their wives so poorly because having to prostrate themselves daily in prayer to the guy who kicked their ancestors butts over a thousand years ago is such a humiliating daily ritual, lording it over their women folk is the only way they can pretend that they are still men....
Considering that the people at the mosque blatantly lied about the nature of their religion, no school should ever entertain such a foolish field trip again. At least not with public money.

I for starter like the idea, I dont mind my kids to go to church, synagogue, temples, stupas etc, just to learn the custom/ceremony, not to follow it. Too bad, we dont have that religious field trip here.
It is not humiliating to perform the daily praying ritual, it is ordered to us by god and as our way to be closer to god. Thanks for reminding me
Lording over wives - yes, but because of the guy is responsible for her. Fulfilling the responsibility as a husband, father and as son is manly enough because the responsibility is quite heavy for us. If we did not educate properly the sins is on us too, the father/husband, hence we have to be strict, you dont want your wife/son become religiously/morally bad people, dont you ?.
The people at the mosque does not lie, but did not know the rules thus why he invite the kids. Actually there is no reason to invite or force or lie to a non Muslim to pray. It is compulsory for Muslim to pray though

reply to post by RainCloud

Hey guess what guy ? I get an applause from the mod and become somebody respected foe 10mins later. LOL

Well then, good for you. You see then, you have made valuable contributions to the thread.
As for the rest, you explain things quite well.

As far as the Mosque not understanding....which is why he invited the children.....well. He should have understood, just as the teachers and school official who arranged the field trip should have understood. The agenda should have in no way have been hidden, or left unrevealed. Not knowing is a poor reflection on both the mosque, and the school.

I will not derail the thread further towards women's rights, although I do believe most American women would never give up their independence, or be willing to submit to male domination in every way from our religion to our hygiene. It's not our way. We prefer to think for ourselves, as you see here.

It was nice to hear from you. I hope I see you around some more.
Peace Out,
liw

reply to post by Sunsetspawn

Jumping on the tolerance bandwagon is just as ignorant as jumping on the hate bandwagon. How can we, that know nothing of the subject, actually learn about it objectively? Anyone, anyone?

I have a big issue with political correctness as well when it become hypocrisy,

Progressive liberal atheist, no offense, do their level headed best to get god out of the schools, yet go out of their way to be supportive in regards to Islam, which in many ways is much more rigid then the average Christian now days.

For instance the dozens of Colleges that have supplied foot baths for Muslim students, well that's all well in good, but why wouldn't Christians be a little resentful when students in some schools are told to remove their crosses.

I have watched the last fifty years of changes made in our school systems, from the days when we could actually have a Christmas pageant with carols or a nativity scene, but all these things including prayer are now a no no, to pacify the minority,

Prayer had to be taken out of the schools because atheist found it disturbing, and it was insensitive to others religious beliefs, we can't even have a moment of silence?

It should be either all or none as far as I am concerned, I don't care where Muslims pray, as long as all faiths are granted the same freedoms.

Well I for one hate being PC. Being sensitive is understandable, ..... to a point. Beyond that, it's utter stupidity.
The video has a hell of a lot of information in it that I am going to look further into.
It's clear many will push the envelope and step on our rights and laws. Muslim or not. What I am seeing is blatant disregard for the rights of our children (the field trip).
Listen to the speaker, she filled their heads with trash. This was only a couple of months ago. Sneaky sons of witches twisting history to their advantage.
If this is something, yet another thing, we will have to fight against, I preparing for the battle.

sl

Originally posted by sweetliberty
Listen to the speaker, she filled their heads with trash. This was only a couple of months ago. Sneaky sons of witches twisting history to their advantage.
If this is something, yet another thing, we will have to fight against, I preparing for the battle.

sl

Exactly, I can't believe more people didn't notice that. Forget the fact that they made some of the kids pray, how about the ridiculous rhetoric that the speaker was saying. "Allah is the All-Merciful, the All-Gracious, the only one worthy of worship. All hail the Lord of all Realms" or whatever the hell she said. What business does that crap have at a public school field trip? I find it questionable that a public school would even visit a place of religious worship, but if they are going to, it should be see the architecture and art, that is all. Like when I went on a summer field trip to Europe, we did see some old religious sites (a few historical churches), but we were absolutely not asked to pray, and the priests didn't try to convert us like this lady did.